125 and 159

this is the right rear shock on 01C...clearly showing it set-up as it should be...another note...the corsa cars should have a makers stamp on the front crossmember...ending in ****125 referring to the chassis type 125 carried over from the first cars...when david seielstad came to look at 012I he went right to the crossmember where is should be...and there it was...



Cp
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I would tend to agree, and nothing is making much "scientific" sense as exactly what changes were made from 125 to 159 to 166, and where and when these changes were made.....or it could be the drawings are wrong....
I'm more confused than ever.

I would really like to see the chassis drawings that were used for the factory 125 "replica", and more photos of the chassis of 01C (and also of 010I, circa 1948, of which I can not find any).

I hope Marcel steps in with a comment....

 

This story is getting more and more interesting!

Regards,

Art S.

 

Looks a lot like page 18 (159) to me NOT page 19 (125). I'm talking about the CHASSIS TRANSVERSE WITH AN INTERNAL ROLL BAR. Perhaps you have a photo of that one on 01C/010I ? It would be slightly to the rear of your photograph and travel clear across the car attached to the tube at the top of your photo meeting up with the other side main chassis rail. It would of course have a nice upwards arc. That arced chassis tube with an internal roll bar is missing from the photo I posted as it should be on 002C but not IMO on 01C. Is it there?

Best

 

i believe it was...as it is an integral part of the odd oil-filled dampeners...and when i had it up on the rack to get a better look, i remember specifically looking for differences from the blueprint and 012I...and there were none...i'll take a look at 012I tomorrow and check clearance above the diff...otherwise i think the transverse sway bar tube has to be upwardly curved in order for diff clearance..

i did find a curious photo though...of 01C/010I showing the top of the horseshoe radiatore with a relief for the air intake...?...think about it...if it wasn't modified by cognolato when he did the body...which it could've been...then...?...but why not install the square style radiatore... if you're going through the trouble of a new body a radiatore is nothing...and a better option than modifying an original piece to achieve the same end...





Cp





Cp

 

With only a handful of cars built, they were not always very consistent with the numbering systems. As an example take spare engine Bjurström ordered for his 0014M - instead of correct "0012M" it was stamped "012M" (which has generated some confusion over the years). Best wishes, Kare

 

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=136022756&postcount=2

Restored via the factory! That's good enough for me.
Nathan

 

A quickly written but probably not very short note regarding some of the comments related to these cars...

I just took a quick glance through the previous posts and to set the record straight...

The car now known as 01C/0010I was with Roger Willbanks this past weekend at Pebble Beach. He allowed anyone who wished to both examine the car as well as view and photograph the Ferrari Factory Photo Copies of the records they provided him during their restoration of this car.

Many inspections by private individuals and Ferrari's own people have been done on this car. No one who has examined both has drawn any conclusion other than the simple facts:

The Gilco frame without significant modification or alteration that was first identified as "01C" was later sold with a new body and enigne and invoiced by Ferrari as 0010I.

The car later went to the UK and was sold illegally do to a ban on importation shortly after the war.

It was in the UK that the car was stamped on top of an alloy slug in perfect large font "010I." The car was then road-registered in the UK until many years later when I purchased it and formally imported it to the States.

After I purchased the car, I was contacted by Rogliatti and Douge Nye who both advised that the car was re-cycled from 01C. This was based on their personal knowledge of Ferrari's own internal documents related to both cars and the first owner. It had nothing to do with how the chassis was stamped at the time of my purchase.

I photographed both the UK stamped "slug" number and the original chassis number stamped underneath. These photos have since been shared and passed around the world many times over. I also measured the wheel-base and front and rear track of the car and provided this information blind to Ferrari.

When the car was restored via Ferrari they made a new replica chassis plate that reflected the dual identity of the car.

They however did not alter or re-stamp the chassis number which after inspection on Sunday is exactly as I found it.

The wheel-base, front and rear-track are the same and have never been changed from when the car was first built as 01C.

The replica that Ferrari built many years ago has now been re-identified by Ferrari to reflect that it is a "tribute" car only giving rightful credit of what the car now known as 01C/0010I should be.

The English Syder Corsa replica body that was made for 01C/0010I remains with Mr. Willbanks and has been fitted to a rolling jig for convenience of movement.

Mr. Willbanks will be showing and gently playing with this car in a variety of future events including the Cavallino Classics. He will be happy to show and display both car and documents to anyone who wishes to inspect either.

While there may be further arguments regarding the individual events, times and dates relating to this car's history, I believe the above Facts as confirmed and documented by Ferrari to be without question true and without embelishment.

Those who would say otherwise might wish to hold their comments until meeting and speaking with Mr. Willbanks directly on January 14th in Palm Beach, Florida.

Warm regards always,

Bill Noon

 

Great seeing you out there and hearing the above. Here's the transverse with the internal roll bar I was talking of. IMO it would be great to know whether or not 01C/0010I is/was so configured.

Best
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Possibly there's somebody around interested in some historical question which up to now I was unable to solve. But as this discussion is mainly focussiing the present and not the past I doubt this. Anyhow...

It is well known that the 166 Inter SC's during the winter 1948/49 received a face lifting, the noses now had the eggcrate grille which also was the new layout of the GP cars. Excluded had been only 2 cars - #016I because it was in the USA, and #010I. Even the other Scuderia Inter (Troubetskoy - Sterzi) car #006I was facelifted, see the first picture below showing Luigi Bordonaro - the new owner - at the Palermo - Monte Pellegrino hillclimb on 5 June 1949.

As written already the other Scuderia Inter car - #010I - was sold by the team' s manager Freddie Zehender to Dudley Folland (with assistence of John Wyer). It is commonly accepted that #010I was the "horseshoe"-grilled car, which was driven by Nuvolari at his famous MM ride in 1948. A photo is attached as No. 2.

But at Folland's first race at Goodwood in April 1949 #010I had neither the horseshoe grille nor an eggcrate version, but the standard 1948 Spyder Corsa grille, see Photo No. 3.

Over decades it seems that nobody was really taking notice of that fact, which may be caused by photo No. 4 showing Troubetskoy's car at Monaco 1948.
Even Doug Nye in 1993 was confused, in the interview Prince Troubetskoy confirmed that it was his car that Nuvolari drove at the Mille Miglia, and he also confirmed that it was his car he drove himself at Monaco. And the Monaco car looked identical with Folland's Ferrari in 1949, and also identical with the car Doug was actually inspecting. To add more confusion, the actual car (in 1993) - #010I - showed some crude welding repair at the rear suspension exactly where Nuvolari's MM car finally cracked.

What's the solution? The Scuderia Inter cars were personal property of Troubetskoy (#010I and #001S) and Sterzi (#006I). Nevertheless the cars had been pooled by team manager Zehender in close cooperation with Ferrari. The service contract with Ferrari even included a clause - similar to modern leasing contracts - that Ferrari will make available another equivalent car in case the own cars are not ready to race. This is confirmed by the fact that Bruno Sterzi at Pescara 1948 drove the works car #012I.
Prince Troubetskoy only appeared sporadically on the racing scene with "his" Ferrari. Besides the Giro di Sicilia (where Sterzi drove #010I and Troubetskoy the muletto #001S) only at Monaco, Bern, Reims, and Albi. And at least at 3 races he drove Sterzi's #006I, only for Albi I have no photo showing the front of the car. So at Monaco Troubetskoy didn't drove his own #010I, but the "pool car" #006I. This was possible without any problems, because Sterzi never raced together with Troubetskoy in the same event (except the Giro di Sicilia), and there had been also no overlappings with Sterzi's calendar. Except on July 4, where Troubetskoy was in Bern, and Sterzi participated in the Bolzano - Mendola hillclimb, but with the roadster #001S.

So was Folland's car #006I and not #010I? No, because #006I definitively was sold to Luigi Bordonaro. And if you look closely to the photos below you will spot that Folland's car at Goodwood has not the same grille than #006I at Monaco. It is rather crude and has by far not the quality craftmanship as the grille on #006I. in fact it looks like being made by somebody who never did a similar job before.

Now my questions:

Why was #006I facelifted to eggcrate grille, but #010I not? The last entry of #006I under the banner of Scuderia Inter was with Clemente Biondetti at the Targa Florio on 20 March 1949, and there she had already the new nose (see photo No. 5). So it is unlikely that Bordonaro ordered the facelift.

Nevertheless #010I received a new nose, but it is unclear whether this happened before or after Folland took ownership. I doubt the latter, because Wyer reported that they hastingly prepared the car for Goodwood after she arrived from Italy, so there was no logical reason to change the nose. So it seems this happened still in Italy, but why an oldfashioned 1948 nose, and why such a bloody crude grille?

This topic is puzzling me since years, and up to now I could not find a reasonable answer.
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I agree with your assessment of photos #1 and #2, but I don't think photos #3 and #4 are of either 016I OR 010I. I believe the bottom photo is of 016I, but I am not certain.

Stu

 

@ dretceterini

You can trust that my captions to the photos are true and correct.

 

There are us who are interested, but it may be that nobody can add anything your excellent info. I - for one - am still gathering basic info to build a big picture of this scene someday but still don't have enough to start the project. As my files are full of confusion, I'd like to see a history overview from 03/48 (when 0010/I was born) to 04/49 (now with Folland in UK). Which races/drivers should be allocated to this chassis? Best wishes, Kare

 

March 1948
delivery (somewhere I have the exact date but could not find it)

3/4 April 1948 - Targa Florio resp. Giro di Sicilia
#? - Bruno Sterzi / Soave Besana - 6th
Sterzi's car was damaged in training, Troubetskoy gave him #010I, and with Clemente Biondetti as co-driver he took the "muletto" (#001S).
The racing fuel was contaminated, so #001S - which ran on normal pump fuel - was able to take the win.

1/2 May 1948 - Mille Miglia
#1049 - Tazio Nuvolari / A. Scapinelli - DNF

9 May 1948 - Gran Premio di Apertura - Vercelli (F2)
#27 - Ferdinando Righetti - DNF

30 May 1948 - Swedish Grand Prix Stockholm (F2)
#4 - Clemente Biondetti - 2nd

4 July 1948 - Grosser Preis von Europa - Bern (F1)
#40 - Clemente Biondetti - DNF (overheating lap 31)

11 July 1948 - Coppa d’Oro delle Dolomiti (sports cars)
#165 - Clemente Biondetti / Genazzani - 11th

1 Aug 1948 - Aosta-Gran San Bernardo Hill Climb
unclear, Bruno Sterzi (#46) and Giampiero Bianchetti (#48) participated for the Scuderia Inter, but don't know with which cars.

1 Aug 1948 - Grand Prix de Comminges - St. Gaudens (F1)
Ferdinando Righetti (#38) and Clemente Biondetti (#42) were entered by the Scuderia Inter, with Igor Troubetskoy as alternative driver. All DNS or even DNA. 2 cars had been at Aosta for the hillclimb, whether the 3rd car was at least present at St. Gaudens is unclear, but I don't think so.

15 Aug 1948 - 24th Circuito di Pescara
#9 - Clemente Biondetti - DNF

29 Aug 1948 - Grand Prix d’Albi (F1)
#48 - Igor Troubetskoy - 7th heat 1, crashed heat 2
Car either #010I or #006I

26 Sep 1948 - Gran Premio di Firenze/Florence (F2)
#46(?) - Igor Troubetskoy - DNF
Car either #010I or #006I

17 Oct 1948 - Gran Premio dell’ Autodromo Monza - (F1)
Igor Troubetskoy (in entry list only, DNA)

24 Oct 1948 - Circuito di Garda - Salo (FL)
#22 - Igor Troubetskoy - 8th

31 Oct 1948 - Gran Premio de Penya Rhin - Pedralbes, Barcelona (F1)
#42 - Igor Troubetskoy (in entry list only, DNA)

18 Apr 1949 - Lavant Cup - Goodwood Easter Monday Meeting
# 21 - Dudley Folland - 1st

28 Apr 1949 - Jersey Road Race - St. Helier (F1)
# 27 - Gordon Watson (in entry list only, DNA)

25 May 1949 - Manx Cup - Douglas, Isle of Man
# 19 - Dudley Folland - DNF

12 June 1949 - IV. Circuit des Remparts - Angoulême (F2)
# 2 - Dudley Folland - 3rd in heat 1

19 June 1949 - Grand Prix du Lac - Aix-les-Bains (F2)
# 30 - Dudley Folland - heat 1 DNF (transmission)

17 July 1949 - Grand Prix des Petites Cylindrées - Reims (F2)
#12 - Dudley Folland - 4th

27 Aug 1949 - Blandford Trophy (F2)
#28 - Dudley Folland - DNF (blown head gasket)

10 Sep 1949 - Wakefield Trophy - Curragh
#? - Dudley Folland - 3rd

17 Sep 1949 - Madgwick Cup - Goodwood
# 71 - Dudley Folland - 6th

 

Very Good Job Michael...!

Argento

 

Hi Michael,

I think it's impossible to reply on your request without detailing every pic of each car in each race.

I have myself tons of old pics of this period but never found time to work on it.

 

Hmm...! Troubetskoy and his appearances in #006I during 1948 for me is no question anymore. And the first race for #010I in 1949 was with Folland at Goodwood, where the car had this strange crude grille.

But you are right, the new nose not necessarely was fixed during the winter 1948/49, it could have happen earlier. The last photo of #010I in 1948 I have from Pescara, without any doubt the horseshoe grille. Then came Albi where the Prince crashed her, so possibly a new nose was necessary. But all servicing and repairs were done at Maranello, and it would be strange that the guys there put such an ugly grille on the car.
After Albi #010I appeared only at Firenze and Salo, I have a lot of photos from both events, but unfortunately nothing of #010I. So pictures from these 3 races showing Troubetskoy and #010I are highly welcome.

I also do not know whether this new nose was only possibly by changing the radiator, but most probably that was the case. The longer I think the more I believe the solution could be found at Albi....

 

Still waiting for photo...

Michael
Kare

What are your thoughts about transverse with internal roll anti roll bar clearly mentioned in Colombo's writings and depicted in his original 125 drawings.

(Post 184)

(Origins Of The Ferrari Legend Gioachino Colombo)

If this chassis has it, or evidence it once did, I believe it's likely it is possible. Without it I think it's highly unlikely.

Best

 

Michael:

I'm not saying the aren't...but the cars in photos 3 and 4 look quite different from those in 1, 2 and 5 to me....and not just because the feners are removed...the body shapes themselves aren't the same...

 

Did you read the posting in total...?

 

Yes I did. To my eye the "bulges" over the main chassis tubes that run down the side of the car look much more prominent on photos 3 and 4 (especially on photo 3) than on the other photos. Can you please try to explain why?

 

In case that there is any confusion, No. 4 shows #006I in original form, No. 1 and 5 the same car in 1949 after the facelift. No. 2 shows #010I in original 1948 form and No. 3 the same car in 1949 after the facelift.

The "bulges" over the main chassis tubes are only clearly visible on No. 3 and 4, angle or quality of the other photos do not allow a reasonable comparison.
Below another photo of #010I in 1948 from e better angle, and also one of #006I.
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Jim, I have no clear thoughts on this. There is so much talk here about sketches and drawings, but which is the correct one? If even Ferrari itself mixed them up with that of the GP car....??
The Colombo drawings in my opinion are useless, they date back to 1945, and had been revised at least 3 times. First they had been processed by Luciano Fochi to working drawings, and then the version dated 5 June 1946 which has been mentioned here already. Busso joined Ferrari on 10 june as Technical Director, and posisbly he altered them again, and finally in late June Eng. Cantafora of GILCO recommended again some alterations.
So it is doubtful that the version of 5 June 1946 really was the final one.

You mentioned that the transverse would go through the fuel tank if in place at a Spyder Corsa, but as far I know the tank was behind the transverse, as can be seen on the cutaway drawing below. However, I don't rely much on these drawings because they are not authentic as e.g. photos are.

Both cars, #010I and your #002C, received a full roadster body in 1950 resp. 1951, and later in the 70's both were rebuilt again to SC configuration. Nobody knows what during these transformations exactly happened, and therefore I believe for none of these cars an untouched frame resp. chassis can be claimed.
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Your drawing points to the exact problem. On 002C the transverse's original possition has been moved forward from the location it would have been on 125 01C. to allow the curved fuel tank not the square fuel tank that was in the 125's. IMO if 010I is built on the repaired remains of 01C the transverse or evidence that it once was should be behind that point. The only posted photo of the shock mount does not answer this question and that is why I still await that photo. The fact that 01C, by your account disappeared for a while, IMO makes my question a legitimate one. If 01C'a chassis was reused at a later date to make 010I was it not necessary to modify that transverse?

Best

 

This is another pic of #006I at Monaco. Copyright is Anonymous.
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