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Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by miurasv, Sep 9, 2017.
nice comparison ...
what we saw in 2013, 2016 as well as in 2017 should be pretty clear now
Of course we need to wait for The Messias who says: "I already new this from the beginning and have it all on record"
Does anyone have any interior (such as dashboard, seats, gearbox tunnel, footwells etc) and engine pictures of the genuine 250 GTO 4399 either to post here or email me at firstname.lastname@example.org? Many thanks in advance.
I took this photo in 2016 at Goodwood before she crashed her nose. Don't care about those cars. They've been crashed so often and have been altered with every repair a little bit. That's just their history. As lons as the repair is good, just see it like a tyre change.
Thank you. This is the alleged replica and more pics of this would be appreciated too. Any engine and more interior shots to compare?
Here are a few more from 2016. The engine was standing behind the GTO or LM as a spare engine in the box.
There's absolutely no problem at all.
I took this photo at the Revival 2004.
Thanks, Tobi and Boudewijn. Great pics. Anyone know what the plaque says????
Is that not the same plaque from post number 18 in this thread? Basically says its a recreation.
No, 2 different cars. Perhaps this is a similar plaque stating exactly what it is???
The plaque states it indeed is 4399 with all race results of 1963,1964 and 1965.
Great. Thanks. Where and when was pic taken?
GTO Reunion 2012
Mike Parkes in 4399.
The replica 4399GT shown as the Goodwood 1963 winner is based on 330 GT 2+2 #6713 and was also present at the Revival in 2016. In 1978 this conversion was made in the USA and was repainted as the Goodwood winner in very recent years.
Thanks, Boudewijn. Do you have any pics of the car at the 2012 GTO Reunion?
Many, but they are not mine.
All one simply needs to do is compare the shape of the driver's-side fog light opening in the two photos (i.e. the driver's side being on the right as one views the nose from afar, as it's a RHD car, etc.).
In the second photo, the discernibly crooked orientation of this fog light opening relative to both the mouth and headlight cover clearly differs from its appearance one week later at the Concours.
Also, the windshield wipers park in 180-degree opposite directions from one photo to the other.
A few more (older) pictures of #4399 and some history: http://www.barchetta.cc/english/All.Ferraris/Detail/4399GT.250GTO.htm
The Union Jack on the front of the car at Goodwood is upside down (credit to Ed -Torquespeak who pointed that out on twitter). I'm sure that must be a deliberate decision.
Before the crash the 'Goodwood' car was on pole and the actual pole winning time of the JD Classics E Type was only a few hundreds quicker. People at JD Classics have told me that E Type makes easily over 450bhp which leads to think that the 'Goodwood' car has a pretty trick engine as well.
Boudewijn's pictures of the plaque and interior are of the real/genuine 250 GTO 4399. Compare to the replica pictured in 2008. There are other differences too.
So was it the original car at St. James Concours in 2013 or not?
And GTO Ann. Tours?
Anyone photos of the car PRE- 2004?
When were the bonnet louvres added?
Are they present on the real 4399GT?
At the last race in 1965 it still had the Le Mans type bonnet without louvres.
Does the real car have the extra oval shaped lights?
When and by whom was this original car restored? Rod Jolley, RS Panels or Les Monks?
Some time soon after or during 1965 the oval and rectangular lights were removed, bumpers and wind up windows added for road use. If you look at the Robert Hardy video the car doesn't have the oval or rectangular lights. The rectangular lights have now been re applied but not the oval ones.
Compare the top left hand corner of the inside of the doors from pic in Giotto's post. It's straight in Peter Singhof pic and curved in the smaller (Boudewijn) pic.
#4399GT in the 80s. With bumpers and removed bumpers. Dashboard is different today.
Are these pics from a book, Giotto? If so which?
"Ferrari - Objects of Art". A big and heavy book. There is also the David Clarke book "Ferrari 250 GTO". Inside are some photos of the restoration of #4399GT and some b&w photos of the car with bumpers.
Thanks. I have these. I thought the dash pic was familiar.
I wonder why Bamford changed the dash? One thing is certain; 4399 wouldn't get a Red Book, if still as pictured here.
Here is 4399 at Goodwood in 2007 2008 and 2012. In 2012 the car did not take part in the race only in a parade. That seems to be the only time since 2007 that the same car that was at the St James Concours was at Goodwood
Absolutely nuts to race these original vintage cars. I'm sure I'm in the minority on this thread, but racing these car is crazy. Restore it to perfection, drive it rarely/sparingly at celebration events, take it to the greatest concourses in the world and leave it be.
Soon more info....
I agree with you for cars that are in an original condition, i.e. unrestored cars with patina that can never be restored to this condition again. But in particular a GTO is a product of its outstanding history and shows the marks thereof. It has lost his original condition with its frist race crash already. I'm very happy that some owners do not hide such a car in their vault, but let us enthusiasts take part in the fun they have when racing such icons.
It's like you'd undergo a cosmetical surgery to restore your birth condition
Some people know how to use their car properly, without having a crash every year. And they have fun :
I was a tad hasty there. Bamford must have changed the dashboard to correct it. 4399GT with '64 body had the '64 dashboard. See screenshots from British Pathe video of 1964 500 km of Spa which Parkes won. I think the steering wheel pictured in the Objects of Art Ferrari Berlinetta book may have been the correct one though.
Do I see it right? Whenever the car is raced the wipers are pointing to the left, when the car is on demo or concours they are to the right???
It looks like you're seeing it right.
Did this car race at the Revival in 2004?
A google search of Goodwood Revival images seems to show that the car with the right point wipers (presumably the original) raced at Goodwood up to 2005. From 2006 onwards whenever it has raced it has had wipers pointing to the left and the slightly droopy side light. 2006 was also the year that the car started to be a lot more competitive in the race.
Here are a few of my pictures of 4399 and the replica. I'll post them by event. I've concentrated on the positioning of the headlights and other lights and openings in the nose. The real 4399 used to have no riveted ridge around the rectangular lights (foglights?) below the headlights. Much later it did gain that ridge, but with only four poprivets. The replica has twelve rivets.
The round light positioned between the front wheel well and the headlight is differente between the real thing and the replica. In later years you'll notice that even the spacing of the registration APB1 is different!
First is the Coys International Historic Festival in 1994.
Second is the FOC GB National Meet and Concours at Castle Ashby in 1997. Still no riveted surround of the rectangular lights.
Third is Goodwood Revival 1999. Notice the surround of the rectangular lights. I think this is still the original 4399 though.
Here's 4399 at DK Engineering in 2001. Probably still the real thing.
Here's for me the first appearance of the replica, at Goodwood Revival in 2007. Notice the number of rivets around the rectangular lights and the shape and positioning of the round side lights. And some damage as well