250 LM at Auction - s/n 6045

So, what is there to buy that's interesting?
If "great" 4-cyl Lampredi race cars are in the 6-8 range-500TRCs, 857s, 860M...etc
What in the world makes anybody think that this car isn't-by real world supply demand default-an 8-12million car?
Drama OUGHT to account for some sort of a discounted valuation, but in this market, who knows...what else is there in this class of FERRARI COMPETITION merchandise?
I exclude ALL big Lampredi 12s, TdFs, and all other early, inside plug, houdaille shocked cars...
All GTOs and TRs been over 30M for SOME time....so why is this thing so expensive?
ITS AN LM with A BOOK, it runs good and looks nice, and its been blessed-FWIW...


Graceful post. Best thing than can be said about it(RM 6045)is that it is an LM with "Book" and with some modicum of original running gear. However IMO I think the question is of what part of the original LM 6045 is it other than the running gear.

Looking at it in that light its value could be relativity compared (on a pro rata scale) to any GTO, TDF re body replica based on a GTE or Pf coupe etc donor (albeit most of those have and original Ferrari chassis under them not some unknown amount of content rebuilt by who knows or being generous Classiche did replace some unknown amount of it so at least that portion is real). These cars seem to sell for more than substantial discount to a so called pure car. Putting that aside another way to look at it is to take the case of a cut Daytona Spyder. They have been selling at less than a 1/3rd of a real one when prices for real ones were in 1.5 range. So if one is to mathematically apply a similar formula a good hypothesis charitably could be made for the current "Booked" 6045 being worth 33% (again being generous) of what the last good public sale of good race history with reputedly original chassis, body and running gear car went for: LM 6107 sold at RM Art Of The Automobile sale on Nov 21, 2013 $14,3000,00 all in. The formula applied would result (without any further discount to 6045 for the fact it has no racing history, a new body and a smoky past etc. Yeah I know it doesn't' matter with race cars although public auction sales results for newly bodied cars seems to contradict this)in a value base of $4,719,000. Using the auction catalogue estimated 8 to12 mil range the result looks far more frightening at $2,640,000 to $3,960,000. Now of course that may appear to be very pessimistic and not realistic so diplomatically looking at it IMO if it makes better than 5.5 to 6.5 mill I would be pleasantly surprised. In any case if it does great.

"Not interesting enough?" "Lesser Class?" A little picky for my taste, but what the hell everyone has the right to their own opinion. Were it my money I would rather buy any other 12, 6 or 4 cylinder (312PB, 250 MM Spyder or Coupe, TDF, 206SP Spyder or Coupe, 750 Monza, 857, 860M, TRC etc) Ferrari alloy bodied with race history and less of a story Enzo era Comp car be it a earlier or later in age than 6045. May I respectfully suggest that the other way to look at it would be the old real estate rule of the best house in the best location usually has a better upside and is lot better investment than the best house in the worst location is in addition to not having the issue of defending any storied problems in a sales negotiation when it comes to having to liquidate when necessary. Philosophically it might be a better way to look at the situation. " world supply demand default" Only a few days have to pass until we shall see the short term implication and outcome of what that is.

 

Guys, stop speculating. There is an extremely well documented file with plenty of photos never published before, including pix taken right after the fire (car did NOT burn to the ground, not at all!) and even pix of the so-called "cut chassis" on a truck in Italy. Qualified bidders are invited to go to the RM auction office at the Portola Plaza Hotel in downtown Monterey to have a look at the documentation. Full disclosure. No more kindergarden, please!
And no, I don't have a horse in this race. Not at all.

Marcel Massini

 

335s - Mr. Monma - always writes the best posts....

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-vintage-driving-machines/329344-275-gtb-v-gtb-4-a-3.html#post140665362

 

Great idea. Unfortunately not all posters can handle the travel costs and accommodations are bit tough to get at this late moment. Funny that with all the " fire and chassis pictures" of the car the vendors and RM did not think it was worthwhile to use any in the auction catalogue. All the speculation and controversy is more publicity for the vendors and just good entertainment so why be a party pooper?

 

Thank's for your kind invitation for "qualified bidders" to go today to the "RM auction office at the Portola Plaza Hotel in downtown Monterey", although not having "a horse in this race". Many would have lost orientation without this hint and its good timing! However, not "burn to the ground" or a chassis "on a truck in Italy" and its documentation is the open question here, but rather what chassis did Classiche *finally* use, and if the car is a certified works replica. And to simply clear this *before* the auction and to explain why the chassis is now "as-new" (cataloque quote), is for sure no kindergarden.

 

Totally agree !
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Maybe something like that ? (cavallino Classic 2014)
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So that document makes it clear that the non-Freeman car had a very large percentage of the original chassis, and yes the chassis was cut simply to fit on a truck (crazy).

But most importantly that original chassis has been reunited with the original engine. I would like to assume that the original cross member from the Freeman car has also been reunited with the rest of the original chassis, if I have understood that this bit was cut out to ease the removal of the engine correctly.

In my humble opinion this current car is the best #6045 could possibly be after it's convoluted past.
Pete

 

That's it. You got it right.

Marcel Massini

 

Thank you Etienne!
And greetings from beautiful sunny Monterey.

Marcel Massini

 

Ferrari Classiche used the only real and genuine chassis frame, the replica was destroyed. Period.
May I recommend that in the future you put less weight into a catalog description, in general, and rather inspect cars personally and consult the usually pretty good and highly detailed documentation folder that comes with the car.

Marcel Massini

 

Thank you very much, Marcel ! Profitez bien de la Californie...

 

"And no, I don't have a horse in this race. Not at all."

Does that mean your observations of the metallurgical testing performed at DK and any other work done on this project by you for them was done out of philanthropic goodness for free without any sort of financial remuneration to you?

"May I recommend that in the future you put less weight into a catalog description, in general, and rather inspect cars personally and consult the usually pretty good and highly detailed documentation folder that comes with the car."

In other words does that mean the vendors did not provide the information used for the catalouge about your participation used in the description of 6045 are not true and did they or you approve of it it is true? If so were you not involved in any research work on the project and if your were did you receive financial remuneration from DK or the other owner partners if any for that work?

 

You may, and your recommendation is really appreciated. But I usually do inspect the cars personally and also did it in this case. I can confirm, that I saw "a" 6045 in 90/91 with a *new* chassis at Visautofficina. Period. And I do trust, that there were not to many 6045 around in this period.

And I also believe that Classiche used the real and genuine Freshman tube with the original chassis tag (and added unfortunately the own tag as well). But please forgive, if some do not only consult the pretty good documentation and certification about the car's originality, produced by the well payed restorer itself.

 

And on it continues. I'm not sure why? It is impossible to debate that the Freeman car chassis should have been retained as the original. Note that the only original part of that chassis has been retained ... pity both sides (why is there a both sides?) cannot be happy that there is now only one #6045 as there always should have been.

Anyway wish I had the money but never will AND interestingly #6045 has a better history than some of the other LM's. God only knows what chassis is in a couple of them. One apparently does not even have a number!
Pete

 

Erudite comments as always Mr. Massini. Thanks

 

anyone able to view the bonhams auction online tonight?

 

Been trying to fix the stream issue for a while now with no luck. Hopefully things get worked out before the GTO goes up

 

$38,000,000

 

Pete,
I think you may have been referring to the Freshman car. In any case I did not see anyone suggesting or debating that the Freshman cars chassis should have been retained as the original in this thread so far.

 

+1 Absolutely spot on and a informative great post. Did you take any pictures?

 

"Ferrari Classiche used the only real and genuine chassis frame, the replica was destroyed. Period."

"So that document makes it clear that the non-Freeman car had a very large percentage of the original chassis"


I willing to shown here by illustrated documentation that I could be wrong but after looking as closely as my computer technology allows me at the pictures #1 & 4 of post #156(as marked at the bottom DK)of the DK documentation folder that were generously provided by Etienne that it looks like much of the chassis was in rough rusty shape post the fire and that a rather large portion of the chassis may have needed to be replaced. This also appears to be confirmed by looking at the green areas of chassis diagrams included on those pages (by the way were the drawings and diagrams Classich drawn and provided or DKs drawings?) if those green areas represent areas replaced. In any case since what actual exact amount or % of the chassis was replaced by Vaccari or any of the other hands that have had at it over the years plus what Classiche did to make it "AS NEW" has not been shown HERE or documented HERE for all us to see so IMHO it may fair to say or conclude that at least the rusted chassis REAMINS LEFT whatever they were after they were exposed to a fire strong enough to melt a substantial amount of the body work were used to restore the car to a better than original new condition. Seems to me the RM 6045 is still a: bitsa some, of the original chassis(whatever % of what that is), original running gear, newly bodied, no race, Classiche booked, better than original condition, had multiple restorations performed upon it and presented for sale as major bargain LM.

I am not sure that I would want to put the current remaining 6045 on the race track and risk my back side ringing it's neck without knowing and seeing exactly if the multi timed repaired and rusted chassis which would corrode not only from the outside as shown in the pictures but from the inside as well(remember the main frame rails front to back carry the front mounted radiator cooling water back and forth to the rear mounted engine) had been X-Ray and Magnaflux inspected with the accompanying certification paperwork and proof that the inspection had been done post or during the last restoration/chassis work performed by Classiche by them to bring it to "AS NEW" condition and be reassured it was structurally sound enough for such activity after such a known damage history.

Still it is nice to see that it has provided so much good entertainment for all of us and is around for all to see how high someone may hold up their hand for it.

As to how good a value it is currently or may be in the future IMO I would prefer to spend the many millions 6045 might achieve for a perfect, never fire damaged or ripped and then restored original piece of art work produced and signed Warhol, Cy Twombly, Jackson Pollock, etc if such an example could be found for the final auction result price 6045 especially after this evenings auction results.

 

This just in from eyes on the ground in the RM Auction site hotel lobby call to me moments ago. LM 6045 body work experienced finger pinch measured in rear wheel arch area above rolled wire edge, rear clam shell hinge area and elsewhere etc. Results not the thin 1 mm expected way to thick(wrong spec material or Bondo?)

 

Yes you are right, and I thought that was happening quite a few pages back and I guess got the wrong end of the stick
Pete

 

Barchetta. com info on chassis time line for fire damaged chassis remains to externally/internally corrode. Fire 1969 when chassis exposed to water or whatever used to put out fire occurs. First set of chassis repairs undertaken by Vaccari 1986. Total elapsed time 17 years. In the words of the Neil Young "Rust Never Sleeps."