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  1. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    351
    Dear Ferrari chaters.

    This is my first post on this forum, so let me introduce myself before coming to the subject I would like to discuss today. I'm French, I do not own a Ferrari but I love this brand since I was 10 (I'm now in my early thirties). Well, that's probably all you need/want to know.

    This post is about 275 GTC. I'm not talking about 275 GTB/C, which were clearly competition models, but about GTC, which are supposed to be client competition models. Since I have seen that some very well informed people are participating and sharing their knowledge on this forum, I wanted to ask you all if you have any information on this little known model.

    Let me share what I know about it. Recently, a car with 275 GTC inscription was on sale in California. S/N was 08457. Seller claimed it was one of the two GTC produced, and that those cars were different from the other 275 GTB (3rd series, long nose), and that they had a different chassis and engine (4 bolt main engine, like on 250TR). This car, 04857, was raced in the 60's, and its history is quite clear.

    Now my main question is: does anyone know if there are only 2 GTC marked cars? And if it's the case, do you have any information on the second car? As it happens, one of my good friends owns another 275 GTC. I have seen the marking, it's definitely "GTC", just as on 08457, and my friend's car's serial number is close enough to 08457 to make sense (sorry, he doesn't want me to share with you the details on his car... but if anyone is interrested, we'll find a way to contact privately). My friend is trying to gather information on his car's history, he's been the owner since 1976, but he's not sure the car ever raced or not.

    This is probably why Ferrari's History is so fun, there are always new things to discover, and 275GTC is probably one of them for many of you!

    Please continue to be passionate about those wonderful machines, and I hope to discuss with you very soon.
     
  2. Julio Batista

    Julio Batista Formula 3

    Dec 22, 2005
    2,397
    Welcome to Fchat, and congratulations for your evident passion and interest.

    I believe there has never been any Ferrari model with the denomination "275 GTC". If I am wrong, you have discovered something important!

    Cheers,

    Julio
     
  3. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    351
    #3 Furanku, Sep 9, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2010
    Dear Julio,

    Here is a link to 08457: http://www.finecars.cc/en/detail/car/15827/index.html?no_cache=1&ret=20&request%5Bfilter%5D%5Boffset%5D=0&request%5Bfilter%5D%5Browcount%5D=6&request%5Bfilter%5D%5Border%5D=tstamp&request%5Bfilter%5D%5Bdesc%5D=desc&request%5Bfilter%5D%5Bdealer%5D=216

    You will find many informations on this car. There are no pictures of the stamping, but I have some (I contacted the seller who kindly sent it to me), and it's exactly the same as my friend's: 275GTC. Please note that the maker's plate is marked 275GTB, not GTC.

    I found another site about this car: http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/chassisNum.aspx?carID=8789&iDNumID=91

    In this site, it's writen: "This is the only known example of a 275 GTC 'Corsa.'" Well, that's not true since there is at least another one which according to its S/N, was built just after (there are no 275 in the S/N between 0457 and my friend's car).

    Anyway, I'm glad if people learned something thanks to my post!
     
  4. sixcarbs

    sixcarbs F1 Rookie
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  5. Simon

    Simon Moderator
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  6. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I always knew these as 275 GTB/C.
     
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  8. Julio Batista

    Julio Batista Formula 3

    Dec 22, 2005
    2,397
    #7 Julio Batista, Sep 9, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2010
    Dear Furanku,

    Thank you for the links. My humble opinion is that the sites are misleading, and that the denomination "275 GTC" is a commercial gimmick.

    Again, I might be wrong. In a few hours this thread will be full of posts written by people infinitely more knowledgeable than I am, and we will have the answer.

    In the meantime, all registries that I have consulted designate 8457 as a 275 GTB, no reference book in my library mentions a 275 GTC, none of the pictures on the sites you gave me show a "275 GTC" script anywhere (build sheet, body, documentation, number plates), and in 40 years of passion (I am 50) I have never heard of a 275 GTC. I believe that the correct designation of this car is 275 GTB/C.

    Again, I might be wrong, and we shall soon know!

    Cheers,

    Julio
     
  9. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    351
    Sixcarb: as you can see on the page, 08457 is described as 275GTB, when it's actually stamped 275GTC. My friend's car is on the page (now you should know what the S/N is, but please don't make me actually write it! ;-) ), and equally wrongly described as 275GTB.

    Simon: Yes, this is this car.

    Amenasce: which cars are you talking about exactly? GTB/C are all alloy, when GTC are steel bodies. There are many other differences between GTB/C and GTC, like the fact that GTC are not dry sump.
     
  10. Julio Batista

    Julio Batista Formula 3

    Dec 22, 2005
    2,397
    Would it be possible to see a picture of the stamp?
     
  11. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    351
    Dear Julio,

    I just watched a picture I received from the seller. I would post it her, but I'm not 100% it's OK to do it, so I won't. Anyway, it's the chassis stamping, and it reads:
    FERRARI 275 GTC *08457*

    My friend's car is stamped exactly in the same way. Until recently, my friend thought it was a simple mistake. It's when he had the engine ovehauled, that the mecanic told him it was not an ordinary 275 engine. After searching on the net, we found the information I posted the link above, indicating there was another car marked in the same way, and which had the same mechanic specificities.

    Once again, GTC seem to be much closer to GTB specs than to GTB/C specs. But i would be interrested to know which cars people are talking about when saying they thought they were GTB/C (wow, that's a complicated sentence...)

    I just saw your last post, i'll send you the picture by private message!
     
  12. sixcarbs

    sixcarbs F1 Rookie
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  13. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    351
    Exactly. Point is, what should we call the car? Since it's stamped 275 GTC, should we call it this way, or still call it 275 GTB? I did some quick research, and found at least one 275GTB/C stamped 275 GTB, and I think I've seen others with 275 GTB/C stamped on the chassis (well, there are different series, that may explain the difference...).

    In other words: I'm lost :)
     
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  15. Julio Batista

    Julio Batista Formula 3

    Dec 22, 2005
    2,397
    I have a 250 GT PF Series I. It has has a competition LM engine block.
    That's great, but it's still a 250 GT PF...

    ... Unless some jerk transforms it into a 250 GT TdF...;)
     
  16. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    351
    I agree (especially on the "jerk" part ;) ), but what's interresting here is that Ferrari deliberatley decided to stamp those (at least) 2 cars differently. My friend also told me chassis was not identical to "normal" 275 GTB, but I don't know in which way.
     
  17. michael bayer

    michael bayer Formula 3

    Aug 4, 2004
    1,292
    What does the build sheets say?
     
  18. Brian Elliston

    Brian Elliston F1 Rookie

    Oct 9, 2009
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    #16 Brian Elliston, Sep 9, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Here's the car 8457, I got to take a ride in it about a month ago.. Super awesome.

    Car is owned by Mark Ketchum and anyone can view more photos at his website, www.ketchumimports.com

    Car is also currently for sale and won it's class at the quail this year.
    IMG_1512.jpg
     
  19. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    351
    I wish I knew... My friend is trying to get his car's build sheet, but he got only two proposals, one for 10KEuros, the other for 20KEuros... If anyone knows a way (other than going to Classiche...), we would be interrested! I thought that some time ago you could download it from Ferrari.com by entering your S/N, was it my imagination?
     
  20. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    351
    Brian, if you had the opportunity to drive "normal" 275 GTB, did you feel a difference driving this GTC?
     
  21. BIGHORN

    BIGHORN Formula Junior

    Sep 18, 2006
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    FLORIDA/NEW MEXICO
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    JOHN F KELLY
    Raabs book lists 8457 as a standard 275 GTB.
    The GTC stamp is probably a mistake
     
  22. BigTex

    BigTex Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Dec 6, 2002
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    "Some time ago" it was not your imagination....since Classiche, it is.....

    They never gave you the "Build Sheet" however, they confimred components as original with a Heritage Certificate.

    Lots of Fchatters got one before it was discontinued.......now they only confirm Build Date at OEM colors in the My Garage section of the website.
     
  23. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    351
    I'm really not sure about that. They built at least 2 consecutive cars with the same special features, one of them actually having been raced, I think it would make sense to name it GTC, since GTB/C was already used for more extreme versions. What would be interresting would be to know if 275 built just before 08457 and just after my friend's car are GTC or GTB. 08451 is steel with 3 carbs, so it's still possible. 08471 is steel, but 6 cab, so it's already a different configuration. The last element I think can be taken into consideration is that information saying there were 2 GTC built does exist on the net, wether it is true or not, somebody believed that even before I confirmed my friend's car's existence.
     
  24. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    351
    Thanks for the info. My friend would have loved to have this information. His car was bought in 1976, and was probably never raced (he found no trace of accident whatsoever when he totally restored it in year 2000), so all parts are probably matching, but it would be better to know anyway! And if he brings it to Classiche, well... it's gonna cost him a lot of money even though he's not wanting to sell it! ;-)
     
  25. billnoon

    billnoon Formula 3
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    Interesting that all the adds fail to list our company as the owner of 08457 on the two separate occasions we owned it. I am unable to post photos but can confirm that this "oddity" 275 GTB was stamped and documented as such by Ferrari's records as a "275 GTC" on the frame.

    The stamping of "275 GTC" was not a mistake but done on purpose to distinguish the car separate from the road models when entered in "GT" class races circa 1967.

    There were two such cars completed for privateers. During our second ownership of the car, Ferrari confirmed additional details as well as the 2nd example's chassis number which they also formally recorded as having been scrapped and parted out after a road accident in 1969. Only the engine of that car survives as far as I know and it can be found today in another Ferrari here in the States. As of January of this year, the elderly owner of that car was unaware that the engine in his car started out life in another Ferrari.

    Don't ask for further details on that one as I am of course keenly interested at some point when he is done in purchasing it for resale!

    Busy with many, many other things but thought it important enough to take the time and share this with those interested.

    Cheers,

    Bill
     
  26. BigTex

    BigTex Six Time F1 World Champ
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    The alloy 275GTB/C I have seen in Phoenix,AZ was a six carb set up.....
     
  27. till.a.fischer

    till.a.fischer Karting

    Oct 18, 2006
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    Bill,
    very helpful information as always, thank you.
    It`s a pleasure to follows thread like this.
    Regards, Till.
     
  28. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    351
    For a moment I considered writing a private message to Bill, but Till's last message made me change my mind and let everybody enjoy the thread!

    Bill, your information is extremely precious, but confuses me very much. You're talking about another GTC destroyed, which S/N are you talking about? My friend's car has all its numbers matching (chassis and engine have the same number), and was sold new to a possibly Italian man (at least his name sounds like it!), then spent 7 years in a museum somewhere in Europe, before being sold to my friend, probably not directly. If you are talking about another car, which is most probable, then there were 3 GTC built, or Ferrari got it wrong and mixed up my friend's GTC with another normal GTB. I'm sorry to bother you at such a busy time, but this story is getting more and more interresting!
     
  29. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    351
    Yes, there were 3carb and 6 carb GTB/C. I was only saying that both GTC I know about were 3 carb cars, so I assumed the 3rd one, if existing, would also be 3 carb. I have to admit this is a wild guess, and considering the very artisanal way cars were built at the time, they could have done anything, really... So forget my first guess, I really have no clue about the existence of other GTC!
     
  30. sixcarbs

    sixcarbs F1 Rookie
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    The plot thickens....

    I love this section of FChat. This type of thread doesn't come along every month and I am sure more experts will chime in.

    Furanku,

    Please try and convince your friend to share photos of the car and serial number. We don't bite. :)
     
  31. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    351
    Hehe, I'm quite sure you're all nice people, but I doubt really much my friend will allow me to post pictures of his car. He had some bad experience with a car he owned before, he found pictures of the car taken in front of his house in books, and he really did not like it! He's trusting me on this, and I really don't want to disapoint him. I don't share his taste for secrecy, but on the other hand I don't know what it's like to be paranoid when you have money and feel other people's jalousy, so I try to understand and respect his will.

    Anyway, the car looks like a regular 275 GTB, long nose, was blue Azzuro when sold new, repainted red rubino before he bought it, and he got it painted black 10 years ago. Black reaaaaly suits this car.
     
  32. Vintage V12

    Vintage V12 Formula 3

    Aug 11, 2004
    1,425
    Does it have 15 inch wheels on it with larger wheel well cut outs?
     
  33. Bjoern Schmidt

    Bjoern Schmidt Karting

    Mar 6, 2005
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    Stuttgart/Germany
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    Bjoern Schmidt
    Another 275 GTB which is stamped "GTC" is 08465, last seen in France, never raced. For me, these cars are not "Clienti Competizione" or whatever but just GTB's stamped "C" by mistake.

    Regards

    Bjoern
     
  34. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    351
    My friend changed the wheels to 15 inch Borani wheels. Originaly it had 14 inch wheels, probably the same as 08457 on the picture posted above (at least the same design).
     
  35. Birel

    Birel Formula 3
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    Of course we must not forget the 1964 Pininfarina prototype for the later 330GTC which was built on 275GTS chassis number 6431 and referred to also as a 275GTC.

    I sold this particular car out of Italy many years ago and believe it is somewhere in USA now.

    It really just looks like a normal 330GTC and seeing as "GTC" is a description of the body style we are referring to I think its the one and only "275GTC"
     
  36. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

    Jun 7, 2007
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    The car in France, according to the OP, has an engine with 4 bolt mains. What engine type would that be? And are the same engines found in the other cars stamped like this?

    Somehow that doesn't make a lot of sense: If these were meant as competition models, why not build them with aluminium bodies, and even stranger, why would a car with a presumably stronger engine guse a 3-carb set-up instead of 6, which had proven to work well on the 275?

    It'd be most interesting to see the engine stamps and the build sheets for these 2 or 3 cars. Maybe Marcel can help out here?

    Bill, the engine that was transplanted out of the wreck into another 275, was it any different from a regular 2-cam?
     
  37. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    351
    You're talking about this car:

    http://autocollections.com/index.cfm?id=3698&action=details&tab=ondisplay&cartable=&sortorder=car,year&sr=8

    It really does look like a 330GTC. Was the chassis stamped 275GTC?
     
  38. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    351
    I'm not a specialist in Ferrari engines (or in any other engine...), so let me paste the description of 08457's engine found on the add:

    "This 275 GT'C' (believed to be 1 of only 2 built was delivered from the
    Ferrari Factory with a 4 bolt main engine (side and rear), which is a
    competition configuration used on the 250 TR, 250 GTO 275 LM's etc.
    Has the hot 130 cams (10 mm lift) which were developed for the 290 MM,
    then they were used in all the two cam V 12 250 and 275 comp Ferraris
    for the next ten years"

    The message here is not that it's the same engine as on 250GTO, since it's obviously a 3.3l and not a 3.0l, but just to say the 4 bolt main engine solution was previously used on competition cars.
    About my friend's car's engine, I know it's 4 bolt too, so I'm assuming it's the same engine as 08457. As for stamping, engines just have the chassis number stamped on it.

    About steel body, I had the same thought, but it may be explained by the fact those cars were meant to be driven on open roads too, and that alluminium body are extremely fragile.

    About 3 carb, it may be linked to race regulations of the time, I'm not sure about that.

    What would be interresting about engine stamps? I have pictures of both car's engine stamps, I can describe it (but probably not post it, as I said before), just tell me what you want to know. If it's a matter of trust (I'm new here, it's true I haven't proven I'm not just another liar!), I can send you some pics privately, feel free to contact me by private message!

    If anyone can help about build sheets, that would be awesome!
     
  39. Ferrari_250tdf

    Ferrari_250tdf Formula Junior

    Mar 3, 2005
    258
    If this refers to the main bearing bridges then it is standard on any 275 engine. Have a look in the parts catalogue or at an engine. So absolutely nothing special here. Also the 10mm lift of the cams is standard to any 275 GTB. I know of an original 6C that shows a "staggering" 236 hp in the foglio montaggio. Way below the claimed 260 to 280.

    Matthias
     
  40. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

    Jun 7, 2007
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    Thanks Mathias, I had no idea that all 275's had 4 -bolt mains.

    If we -tentatively- rule out any engine differences, there was mention of chassis differences: what are they?
     
  41. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    A number of 275 GTB's were raced by Privateers. The one I owned was entered in the Targa Florio. (Alloy 6 carb 2 cam)

    There is also no race regulation that would have prohibited 6 carb engines.
     
  42. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    351
    #40 Furanku, Sep 10, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2010
    Interresting. If this is true, then why would the mechanic who restored the engine tell my friend it was different from other 275 engines? I shall try to find out about this.

    Ferrari's "optimistic" hp are not new, but the figures you give us is quite disturbing! ;-)

    EDIT: I just called my friend. It turns out you're right, but he learned only 15 days ago that only first series of 275 had 2 bolt main bearing bridges, so 4 bolts don't mean the engine is special in any way. The only possible option is the chassis. My friend told me his car's handling is much better than other 275GTB2, and that he thinks the chassis could have been a kind of prototype for upcoming GTB/C. This is a guess, obviously. I don't know how we could make sure the chassis is different than normal 275 GTB in any way.

    The other piece of information he gave me is that both GTC we know about were delivered to their first owners directly by the factory, without going through dealers. His car's first owners were apparently two Italian guys, which makes me think it might have been for a racing team, but again this is a wild guess!

    To be continued...
     
  43. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    351
    I would not rule out engine differences yet, but about the chassis, I'll try to ask my friend this weekend.
     
  44. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    351
    Are you sure about the regulation part? If it's the case, then why would Ferrari have chosen to fit only 3 carbs on some of its 275 GTB/C, when it seems clear 6 carbs were better in terms of performance? I'm quite sure I read someting about this somewhere, obviously it could have been wrong too, I'm just trying to undersand!
     
  45. Ferrari_250tdf

    Ferrari_250tdf Formula Junior

    Mar 3, 2005
    258
    The 275 was homologated in June 1965 by the ACI/FIA with the 3 40 DFI carb setup.

    Matthias
     
  46. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Mine raced at Targa Florio with 6.
     
  47. billnoon

    billnoon Formula 3
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    The main bearing bolts reference needs to clarify that they are both larger and of a higher tensile strength to keep the crank from "walking" at high rpms.

    6 carbs were an option but not homologated with the 275 GTB at the base "GT" level of race classification, same for an alloy body.

    Basically beginning sometime very late 1965 / early 1966 if you wanted to run the FIA's version of "showroom stock" in a 275GTB, there were very few modifications allowed.

    Later changes by Ferrari and different classes of racing did allow and accommodate for lower homologated weight (alloy) bodies as well as other options such as six carbs and a variety of other changes.

    By the way, this is one reason that the very base and usually thought of very boring early "plain Jane" 1965 275 GTBs with no options and standard steel bodies have become a popular pick for historic racing in Europe. With nothing but a few safety mods, they meet the homologated "GT" rules and can participate in many events. Of course they are hopelessly uncompetitive for the most part but a really cool ride nonetheless!

    Cheers,

    Bill
     
  48. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    351
    #46 Furanku, Sep 10, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2010
    If I understand well, we have here the reason why the GTC models i'm talking about, both built in 1966 (probably April or May for my friend's car), were fitted with steel bodies and 3 carbs.

    About the engine itself, I remember now that my friend told me he heard his car's engine was design to endure up to 10,000 rpm, when normal GTB engines where not supposed to go any faster than 8,000.

    Bill, if I send you a picture of the engine bearing bolts, would you be able to tell us if they are indeed "special"?
     
  49. billnoon

    billnoon Formula 3
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    No, probably not. I think you would need to have both out and a side by side for a comparison plus be able to decode the stampings on the top of the head of the bolt to know ther tolerances, brunel strength etc...

    No matter what you did to stabilize the crank, no 275 motor is going to be able to deal with the reciprocating loads of mass at 10,000rpm!!! The idea likely behind the engine internal improvements was same red-line while on the track but keeping the engine together for 100,000 kilometers or so of regular road use between overhauls.

    On a "race-only" engine, hours only overhauls are the norm. On a road engine that is sometimes raced, the idea is overhaul at time of need rather than hours of use.

    Cheers,

    Bil
     
  50. Simon

    Simon Moderator
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    A big thank you for that. This is a great thread and it would be a pity to miss out on any of the information from Fchat's most knowledgeable. Looking forward to the next installments.

    Cheers
    Simon
     
  51. BIGHORN

    BIGHORN Formula Junior

    Sep 18, 2006
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    JOHN F KELLY
    Direct factory sales and delivery was not uncommon up thru the Daytonas, and some into the 365/BBs. I dont regard this as significant. My Daytona was a direct sale in 1972.

    If the 275 GTC was a prototype for the GTB/c I would think it would have the lighter weight frame rails and bodywork of those cars.

    With all due resect to Bill no reference to 275GTCs, to my knowledge, occurs in any of the extensive Ferrari litature.
     
  52. Furanku

    Furanku Formula Junior

    Sep 25, 2009
    351
    I'm not sure about the prototype thing either, coming to think of it, what would be the point in making a prototype that you would immediately sell to privateers? you wouldn't be able to learn from its weaknesses.

    Anyway, even though it's deffinitely not documented in any books, it is a fact that at least two chassis were stamped 275 GTC, and I doubt it could have been a simple mistake.

    Bill, thanks again for the rpm information. Could you share with us the chassis number Ferrari told you was the destroyed GTC?
     

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