3/9-10/1957 Paramount Ranch (Richie Ginther, 1st) | FerrariChat

3/9-10/1957 Paramount Ranch (Richie Ginther, 1st)

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by rob lay, Aug 4, 2006.

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  1. rob lay

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    #1 rob lay, Aug 4, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I acquired from Bruce Russell at Indy the trophy Richie Ginther won racing what I believe is a 500 TR at the March 9-10, 1957 SCCA Paramount Ranch races in the B Mod. Over 1500 class.

    This thread is meant to explore and document the history of that car, that race, Richie Ginther, and Eleanor von Neumann. At this point I know very little about any, so I'm looking forward to the journey. I will update this first post as new information is discovered.

    Aston Martin

    <insert history>

    March 9-10, 1957 SCCA Paramount Ranch B Mod. Over 1500 race

    <insert history>

    Richie Ginther

    <insert history>

    Eleanor von Neumann

    <insert history>

    I have some good books to start the process, but just received everything today and wanted to get the thread started ASAP. I also have a nearly complete collection of Cavallino, Forza, Ferrari World, and some Prancing Horses if there are relevant articles to reference.

    Thank you,
    rob
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  2. rob lay

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    #2 rob lay, Aug 4, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  3. rob lay

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    #3 rob lay, Aug 4, 2006
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    Confirm this picture (post 3) is Richie Ginther, in the 500 TR he won with, and at this particular race?

    I know differences among all these pictures, especially with the numbers, so I know not all are at this particular race, I'm just trying to figure out which is which for each picture.
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  4. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    #4 rob lay, Aug 4, 2006
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    Confirm this picture (post 4) is Richie Ginther, in the 500 TR he won with, and at this particular race?

    Eleanor von Neumann on the right?
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  5. rob lay

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    #5 rob lay, Aug 4, 2006
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  6. rob lay

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    #6 rob lay, Aug 4, 2006
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  7. rob lay

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    #7 rob lay, Aug 4, 2006
    Can you tell if the head cover is off a 250 GTE for sure? That's what I guessed and Bruce confirmed.
     
  8. Miltonian

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    #8 Miltonian, Aug 4, 2006
    Post 5 - that's Richie Ginther on the LEFT of the photo. The other photos don't look like Ginther to me.
     
  9. ArtS

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    #9 ArtS, Aug 4, 2006
    I second Jeff's call.

    Art S.
     
  10. Glassman

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    #10 Glassman, Aug 4, 2006
    I believe that valve cover could be off an inside plug engine also.
     
  11. Old Guy

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    #11 Old Guy, Aug 4, 2006
    Rob,

    OK, this appears to be a car I formerly owned, so a lot of this is familiar to me.

    Photo 2 is John von Neumann, in what is probably 0672 MDTR, a 625 TRC (one of two built for him)

    Photo 3 is JvN again, in what is definitely 0672 MDTR when it still had the 2.5 liter four cylinder engine (from the factory)

    Photo 4 is definitely not Richie Ginther; his hair was never like that. This may be 0680 MDTR, the other 625 TRC. Off hand I can't identify the driver (Ed Niles, where are you?). That doesn't look like Eleanor to me, but my memory there is somewhat hazy.

    (She by the way, was JvN's wife. Josie von Neumann was his step-daughter, who was a decent driver in her own right. Eleanor and John divorced in 1959 or '60 -- too lazy to look it up right now. She got the Ferrari distributorship and most of the race cars, which were sold. JvN kept 0672.)

    Photo 5: Richie in on the left. That looks like John Mecom Jr on the right.

    Photo 6: That's Ken Miles in another of JvN's 250 TRs, 0704 (in addition to 0710 and 0718). Not sure where.

    Rob, if you'll check Michael Lynch's multi-part series on John von Neumann and his cars in Cavallino (in the past couple of years?) it will answer most if not all your questions. 0672 MDTR, incidentally, is now owned by Bruce Meyer, who restored it to its best-known configuration, with the TR V-12 installed. It was on the cover of Cavallino two or three issues ago.

    O.G.
     
  12. MJarrettR

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    #12 MJarrettR, Aug 4, 2006
    Old Guy answered most of the questions. Although it is hard to tell, I believe that photo #6 actually shows Josie von Neumann driving 250TR58 s/n 0704TR, at either Hourglass Field or the Times GP at Riverside in 1959. I show her as the only driver of this car while it was numbered #112. When Richie drove it, it was usually numbered 211. Not really sure why. However, that may indeed by Richie driving it in a practice lap, difficult to tell with the bluriness.


    -Jarrett
     
  13. Old Guy

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    #13 Old Guy, Aug 4, 2006
    Jarrett,

    I think you're right. I glanced mostly at the helmet and goggles (and the profile), which resemble Miles. He raced 0672, but later.

    Of course, saying that Josie's facial profile resembled Miles' in any way is probably a bit of an insult to her....

    O.G.
     
  14. Jack-the-lad

    Jack-the-lad Six Time F1 World Champ
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    #14 Jack-the-lad, Aug 4, 2006
    I agree with your ID.

    Richie Ginther is one driver who deserves a thorough and accurate biography. The more time passes, the fewer eyewitness to his life there will be. What a shame.

    Jack
     
  15. rob lay

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    #15 rob lay, Aug 4, 2006
    Thanks for the information so far everyone. Even before I bought this “set” I knew what I was getting. The cost is for the trophy and I think everything else was thrown into the box for show. It does look very good on display, but maybe little significance to the actual trophy. I have a contact for the SCCA archivist, but I have no idea how organized and accessible the actual results would be. I’ve heard there are rooms of boxes with the history of SCCA results.

    So everyone feel free to go off on tangents and discus Richie or the von Neumann’s. Should all be interesting, my main focus is first finding information on the race this trophy was won and what car Richie was driving.

    Now another assumption I’ve made is this was a SCCA race. However, the trophy has no indication of the organization running this event. Wasn’t there a California Sports Car Club along with USAC back then along with the SCCA?

    I’ve also never heard of Paramount Ranch and don’t know where it is located.
     
  16. Napolis

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    #16 Napolis, Aug 4, 2006
    There's a great thread here somewhere showing what it looks like today. Great trophy!
     
  17. rob lay

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    #17 rob lay, Aug 4, 2006
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    Information on Paramount Ranch...

    Purchased in 1921 for a reported $425,000, Rancho Paramount, as it was known, became the property of Paramount Pictures. In 1943, the ranch was auctioned off to Eiser Wickholm for only $39,500, after Paramount had invested $60,000 in rebuilding the western street sets. Wickhom subdivided the property and sold parcels to investors.

    Ill health in the late 1950's forced Hertz to sell the property for $200,000. The Paramount Sportsman's Ranch then built an auto race track on the property.

    Source: http://employees.oxy.edu/jerry/pararnch.htm

    Paramount Ranch was a unique road racing course in the Santa Monica mountains above Malibu. The land was used as a film location for many shoot 'em up Western movies. It's now a National Park and the "Old West" town with saloons & hitching rails and other standards of the genre still exists.

    After a fatality at the December, 1957 event the course was never used again.

    Source: http://www.tamsoldracecarsite.net/ParamountRanchHome.html

    First race at Paramount Ranch August 18 - 19, 1956: http://home.san.rr.com/fsheff/covpr856.htm

    Pictures from the March 9-10 and June 15-16 events at Paramount: http://www.tamsoldracecarsite.net/ParamountRanch.html

    According to the above website the March 9-10 races were sanctioned by the CSCC.
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  18. rob lay

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    #18 rob lay, Aug 4, 2006
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  19. C'one

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    #19 C'one, Aug 5, 2006
    I've lost the link,but there's another site where someone does a modern walkaround of whats left of the track,lots of period photos too..
     
  20. enzo360

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    #20 enzo360, Aug 5, 2006
  21. Boudewijn

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    #21 Boudewijn, Aug 5, 2006
    Rob, recently I bought a book by Art Evans called "Paramount Ranch Remembered". It was published very recently and in 240 pages it will answer any question you may have. It is published by Photo Data Research at Redondo Beach-CA. Library of Congress Card Catalog Number: LC 2006 376941.
    Best
    Boudewijn
     
  22. Old Guy

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    #22 Old Guy, Aug 5, 2006
    Rob,

    Now that you've found out that only one photo shows Richie Ginther, and that most of the photos have nothing to do with the trophy, you must be very disappointed. All you have is a wall decoration celebrating the cars and such of John von Neumann and his family.

    I'll be willing to take this ugly thing off your hands for you. I'll even split shipping with you. Just let me know....

    O.G.

    PS -- If you want to trade, and need something to fill that spot on the wall, I have a great artistic framed painting of some dogs playing poker. It's very colorful, on black velvet, and I think you'd love it.
     
  23. vroomgt

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    #23 vroomgt, Aug 5, 2006
    PS -- If you want to trade, and need something to fill that spot on the wall, I have a great artistic framed painting of some dogs playing poker. It's very colorful, on black velvet, and I think you'd love it.[/QUOTE]

    I'm going to jump in here... its not Ferrari related but I have been after one of those poker playing dog prints!

    I could be persuaded to let go of a scroll wall hanging with a lovely poem "Desiderata" and also a BIG reproduction (I think) of a bar scene with James Dean and Elvis hanging around a diner..

    Think about it.
     
  24. rob lay

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    #24 rob lay, Aug 5, 2006
    So generous, but I think I’ll wallow in my own misery. ;)
     
  25. rob lay

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    #25 rob lay, Aug 5, 2006
    Thank you very much for the lead. Would you mind seeing if the March 9-10, 1957 Over 1500 D-Mod results are listed? I think once we have the car Richie won with that will further our conversation. Now I even wonder if he was in a Ferrari. :D So far I've seen it documented Richie drove at least 4 different makes of cars at Paramount races 1956-1957.
     
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