308 F.I. plastic lines to injectors - Weak design?

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by dave80gtsi, Mar 31, 2004.

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  1. dave80gtsi

    dave80gtsi Formula 3
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    Greetings to all - I am in the process of replacing all of the various fuel, coolant, and vacuum neoprene hoses on my 308, many of which are original and are in dire need of renewal.

    I have a question about the series of small diameter plastic tubes which lead from the fuel distributor to each of the various injectors. These bundled tubes on my car appear to be in good shape, in that they are still a bit flexible, and there are no obvious signs of problems with any of them. However, imagining a 'worst case scenario', if one of these small fuel lines were to fracture, the result could easily be the spraying of gasoline onto the hot header area, and somehow I think this could ruin my day if it were to occur.

    In general terms, is there any history of these small diameter lines frequently fracturing or splitting? Have these OEM tubes shown themselves to be pretty much bulletproof, or are they a ticking time bomb?

    Thanks for all of your opinions and thoughts - DM / Ohio
     
  2. Mark 328

    Mark 328 Formula Junior

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    I have heard that replacements for these lines are unavailable.
    I have checked at several places and it appears that they are unavailable.
    In fact, I was told that the manuafacturer came into the stores and collected the remaining stock.
    Some cars used this type of tubing for vacuum lines.
    VW uses a braided stainless line for this purpose.
    I would be interested in hearing about repacements.

    Mark
     
  3. lou staller

    lou staller Formula Junior

    Dec 21, 2002
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    I would also like to know if there is an alternative to plastic lines. Mine were so dry and brittle they actually cracked and broke apart. How about some type of braided line? Any ideas?
     
  4. dwil

    dwil Karting
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    The old 911s use the cis system similar to the gtbi/si. I had bought the
    replacement nylon tubing in the correct metric size to replace the fi
    tubing on my 77 911s but haven't got around to it yet. The tubing
    and installation collars were very inexpensive from www.mcmaster.com.
    You could find more info on this by searching fellow fchatter Wayne
    Dempsey's Pelican parts website for info about "cis tubing" or "fi tubing"
    good luck!
     
  5. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    The PelicanParts link you want is:
    http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56968&highlight=Fuel+AND+line

    It reads:
     
  6. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran
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    Anyone done this yet? I have a bad fuel line between the fuel distributor and injector (the plastic part) and need to replace it. Is the above info the best way to go?

    Thanks

    Birdman
     
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  8. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran
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    This is the stuff for the Mondial/308 injectors (between the fuel distributor and injector hard lines) based on the measurements of my car:

    3mm ID x 5mm OD: stk number 50405K12@$0.26/ft by the ft.

    However that part number is discontinued. The new one is: 50405K24
     
  9. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    I've been poking around the CIS threads on the 911 forum. The 911 guys have found that that McMaster 6mm OD x 3mm ID line isn't rigid enough, it damps the oscillation of the little needle in the injectors, resulting in miss-firing & running lean!!!

    You need a 6mm x 2 mm line (2mm wall thickness) - See quote below.

    D&S Sales has the correct line, along with banjo fittings, etc:

    http://www.dssales.net/CIS.html

    Here are some relevant links on the 911 forum, including tools & tips on inserting the barbs into the CIS tubing:

    Pressing nylon fuel lines onto barb fittings
    http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?t=184617

    CIS Fuel Lines http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?t=338156

    Alternate CIS fuel injector hose/tubing?
    http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=185323

    CIS misfire
    http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=236328

    Bottom line from the preceding thread:

    Sorry to bring up a P-word car, but you gotta give credit where it's due...
     
  10. Birdman

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    Hey Verell,
    Thanks for the links. I gave it a read. The only thing that is confusing me is that the Mondial fuel line is on my car 5mm OD and 3 mm ID, so it has 1 mm wall thickness. This is the same as the McMaster. Are the Porsche guys using the same line size? 6x2 is a mm larger on OD and a mm smaller on ID. I can't imagine how you would get it installed on the hard line without destroying something. The dssales website talks about needing to use a speacial reamer to make the end large enough to get on the hard line, but there is no link to that tool. Sounds sketchy....

    This all sounds logical, but why can't I just buy the CORRECT line...in the right rigidity to prevent pulsing? It must be available somewhere.

    Birdman
     
  11. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran
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    In This thread they discuss Boxer fuel line and the proper size is listed as 6x2. I just checked my car again with a caliper. My car has 5x3 on the rear injectors and 6x3 on the front. So it looks like they replaced the rears at some point with the wrong thing. I think 6x3 is the right thing to find. It sounds like dssales is selling 6x2 and making people modify it to work.

    Birdman
     
  12. Ken

    Ken F1 World Champ

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    Back in the day (1970's) some fuel lines were plastic. My Lotus had all plastic fuel lines in fact. It is well known that modern fuel additives will make this plastic get brittle and crack over time. I have replaced all mine with modern stuff as well as changing the two plastic "T"s to brass. I don't know what Ferrari used in the 1980's but if it's the same kind of plastic I would be VERY worried about fuel leaks.

    Ken
     
  13. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    Just measured my Euro QV's injector lines, OD=6mm unfortunately there were no markings.

    IF 6mm OD, 3mm ID are the correct dimensions, then Newman's 1/4"(6.35mm) OD, 0.0625"(1.58mm) wall thickness -->0.125"(3.175mm) ID tubing is close enough, & has a thicker wall.

    The 50405K24 is Nylon 11, with a hardness of Shore D70. That's pretty hard(think plastic hard hat material) for a plastic, the harder the wall, the less it will pulse.

    Note that nylon tubing comes in several types, each with a range of hardness. (eg: Nylon 6(96A-112A/46D-81D (Hard)
    R 112), Nylon 11(57D | 70D ), & Nylon 12(50D | 63D )).


    I just searched McMaster & they' don't have 1/4" OD x 0.062 wall nylon line. But I did find 5437K111: 6mm OD x 3mm ID (1.5mm wall) line, Nylon 12 , 50D hardness & flame retardant. Rated for 175psi.

    MSC has a 65095481: 1/4" OD x 0.062 wall nylon line rated for 500psi, but they don't spec hardness tho.

    I suspect the D&S Sales reamer is just a simple taper reamer, probably matches the barb's profile except maybe 1mm undersize. It's the sort of thing that BOSCH would do. Certainly wouldn't be hard to make a tapered reamer out of 1/4" steel rod, hour or so with a lathe & mill. Nylon's soft enough so wouldn't need any hardening.
     
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  15. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran
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    Hey Verell,
    Thanks for the help. I'm getting there. I just called Bel-metric right in MA and they have in stock the 5x3 stuff made by Cohline that is on the rear bank of my car. He is going to check the catalog to see if they make a 6x3. If so, we can order it, but he needs to order a big roll.

    Group buy!?

    Birdman
     
  16. Martin308GTB

    Martin308GTB F1 Rookie
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    Hello from Germany,

    maybe you Bosch FI-owners are interested in contacting the classic car division, Bosch founded around three years ago.

    http://www.automotive-tradition.de/en/start/index.htm

    You can not only download several Bosch documents, spare parts lists, etc., but also send them your individual inquiries via e-Mail or a phone hotline.
    They are very helpful and I'm sure they will answer your questions regarding the FI fuel lines thoroughly. Maybe there's a procedure for replacement of the old clear plastic lines with the more reliable steel braided lines, VW, for example, used on their GTIs.

    I had a similar problem some time ago with the fuel injectors of a Bosch L-Jetronic and with the help of Bosch's Automotive Tradition department I quickly solved it.

    Best Regards

    Martin
     
  17. blkprlz

    blkprlz Formula 3

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    I'm sure some of you are already on this, so rather than 50 guys contacting Bosch, I'll wait for your posted results........in the meantime,

    In the event that Bosch does not come thru w/replacement lines, count me in for some of that 5X3mm stuff (though my lines look in great condition but should stock up on it for the future). I'll get back to you w/a # after I do a take-off if this is the only route to take.
     
  18. RGigante

    RGigante F1 Rookie
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    Please count me in if you do get that 5X3mm stuff. My 328 is now 19 years old ....

    Thanks,
    Rui
     
  19. Birdman

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    Guys,
    The 5x3 is easily obtainable at a place near me. Unfortunately, Verell and I are pretty sure that while it clearly will get the job done, it is NOT the same spec as OEM, which I believe is 6x3. I am looking into finding the correct 6x3. Stand by.

    Birdman
     
  20. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran
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    I searched that Bosch website and they list nothing for this fuel line. They do list most of the other CIS parts though. Might be a source for people looking for warm up regulators, etc.

    I have some tips from Brian Crall to follow up on. Dave Helms....you out there? Brian says you will know the part number and where to get this stuff.

    Birdman
     
  21. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    Just spoke with Larry Fletcher (CIS repair source) He said that the line to use is German polyamide(Nylon(tm)) line made by Cohline as Carmine mentioned in the other thread. Larry's pretty sure that the correct size is 5mm OD x 3 mm ID. That's definitely what he uses in his CIS test equipment, he read the dimension off of his roll of line while we were on the phone.

    BTW: "Polyamide: Polymer formed by the reaction of a diamine and a diacid. Nylons are commercial polyamides"

    Larry gave me a contact to call to double-check on. Will call tomorrow AM & post what I find.
     
  22. rizzo308

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    keep up the great work guys.............. forza......... i'll stay tuned
     
  23. Birdman

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    If I can use that and not have problems, that's great, because that stuff is easy to come by locally for us!! Maybe the OEM-sized 6mm/3mm stuff just isn't available anymore?

    Birdman
     
  24. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    My suspicion is that plastics technology has improved to the point where today's 5x3 meets the specs of the OEM 6mm OD tubing.

    BTW Birdman, did you actually go & cut one of your good 6mm lines to verify that it's 3mm ID?

    I did a reverse lookup on the phone # Larry gave me. It's NEWCO products in CA:
    http://www.newcoproducts.com/

    Browsing NEWCOs online catalog revealed that COHLINE makes a 6 mm x 3.15 mm line with 1.4 mm wall thickness, p/n 3011.3106-20

    I suspect that the -20 is the length as every p/n in the table ended in -20 & 20 meters is the std order size. Does say that 5 meter lines are available tho.

    I'll make that phone call tomorrow AM to check with NEWCO's Cohline guy.
     
  25. Birdman

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    I have to admit that I have not....I am hesitant to destroy any of the "good" lines until I know that I can fix them!
     
  26. Birdman

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    Hey Verell,
    OK, I have found the same page in the catalog. Let me e-mail the belmetric guy and see if he can get that stuff. I'm betting that is the stuff!!!

    I'll also bet that the 5x3 works just as well though.

    Jonathan
     
  27. dave80gtsi

    dave80gtsi Formula 3
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    Glad to see this old thread that I started years ago is getting some new attention!

    How about we go in a slightly different direction - rather than new plastic tubing, what about a SS braided product?

    I've heard mention from time to time that this SS product exists, and can be used instead (a VW application??), but I've never seen any documentation, nor any B.T.D.T. testimonials from those who have upgraded away from the bare plastic tubing.

    Anyone?

    Cheers - DM
     
  28. M.James

    M.James F1 Rookie

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    I have several spare fuel lines with both rigid and plastic tubing to hack apart/dissect, if need-be. Should be available this sunday if you are....FYI.
     
  29. spiderseeker

    spiderseeker Formula 3

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    This sounds like another good business opportunity for Verell or Birdman etc.
    Sell pre-made fuel lines with fittings attached and pressure tested, ON AN EXCHANGE basis or a RE-BUILT basis.
    You send in your old lines and they are rebuilt or exchanged for new. (using your old fittings)
    I've never had a problem with the lines but they are 20+ years old now, so it's something to think about.
    SS lines are also an excellent option, that's one place that I wouldn't mind NOT using OEM lines for something superior.
    This is an excellent thread !
     
  30. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran
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    Steve,
    That is a great idea....for someone else. I have no intention of getting involved in a business of building or selling fuel injection parts, the failure of which could cause a fire! No thanks! But I will track down the proper fuel line and let everyone know where to buy it, or even buy a bundle and sell off the excess if I have to.

    Dave,
    I am personally only interested in finding the correct line. It lasted more than 20 years, so it's pretty good to begin with. It has been hard enough tracking down the right stuff....not sure I want to track down a compatible, more expensive, possibly non-existant alternative. That's your assignment!! ;)

    Birdman
     
  31. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    #29 Verell, Nov 15, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Dave,
    The SS line is available. Again, made by Cohline specificly for fuel injection applications. It's interesting to note that the line versions specificly developed for K-Jet are 1.4 mm and 2.0 mm ID.

    Some of the 911 guys mention using it.

    The picture is a 2 tables of Cohline's polyamide tubing. The 2nd table is the SS covered lines. Both are available from:
    http://www.newcoproducts.com/

    Of course with the SS line, you'll need a metal ferrule, or some other way of keeping the ends from fraying.
    ss braided cohline.jpg
     
  32. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran
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    Another point of confusion. Someone in a previous thread pointed to DS Sales as a source for these lines. I dropped them an e-mail and received this back:

    Hi Jonathan;
    You need 5-893 tubing which is 3mm ID. The cost is 15.20 + shipping for 5 Meters. You Just need to cut off the old lines with a razor blade. Dip the new hose in hot water to soften, then install on fittings. Goes on easily. Don't kink the hose! If you think it is 6mm ID the part # is 5-896 & 5 meters costs 20.40. We accept Visa & American Express.


    Birdman
     
  33. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran
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    Hmmmm....this would be a good way to put an end to the discussion of ID!! If you don't mind cutting one open, that would be cool. I volunteer to repair it with new line when we are done.

    Birdman
     
  34. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    I'd love to sit in on this. Chris is coming over Sunday AM sometime to help lift his tranny up onto the stand, but after that I'd be interested in getting together. Weather's supposed to be nice Sunday, so it'll be an opportunity to squeeze in another 308 ride before I take it off the road & start pulling it apart.
     
  35. RGigante

    RGigante F1 Rookie
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    I believe the correct ones would be:

    3011.0305-20 -> for the WUR connections
    3011.3106-20 -> for the injectors

    The WUR ones are 5mm outside diam. and there's only one reference for 5mm (3011.0305-20)

    For the injectors the outside diam. is 6mm and there are two references for 6mm .... I've made a very small cut on one of the line ends and measured the wall thickness: 1,4mm , so it can only be 3011.3106-20

    My car is a Euro 328 (1988)
    Would anyone care to confirm this, please?
     
  36. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    I just got off of the phone with Ed Redwinski, Cohline GMBH's US tech support. He doesn't have the cross reference to the Ferrari application. However, he said that the 3011.3106-20 is not on file, so isn't stocked anywhere in the US!!

    Cohline GMBH only sells to distributors. Is willing to import a 20m roll if we can find someone to front for us. A distributor, is's going to add a markup. He suggested we order thru Larry Fletcher as his CIS rebuilding company has an account there. I'm sure Larry will help out.

    Std shipping from Germany is via container ship, Cohline's next container will be coming in in early January. However, he's able to have it sent via air as long as hist customer pays for it, probably an extra $50.

    I believe it's time to dissect a 6mm injector line & verify it's dimensions, then if we confirm it's 3011.3106-20 I'll call Larry & we'll get a roll coming via air. If its one of the lines already available, we'll probably order a thru a distributor.
     
  37. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran
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    Sounds like a plan!
     
  38. mike

    mike Formula Junior

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    Aside from your car being Euro, are all the injected 3xx series gonna be the same?. I have an '86 328 USA spec, and was wondering.
     
  39. RGigante

    RGigante F1 Rookie
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    I've contacted Cohline in Europe (UK) and I'm waiting for a reply. I'll let you know when I get an answer
     
  40. Birdman

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    Here's an update. Yesterday Verell and I wandered up to Belmetric and I bought some 5/3 line to try. We are going to meet on Sunday to take apart some other components and be sure that 6/3 is what we want.

    Last night I designed a slick little tool which installs these hoses on the hard pipe, which is astonishingly difficult without it. (I ruined about half the tubing I bought, making attempt after failed attempt to get even one hard pipe into the plastic hose without kinking it.) I believe the real reason for the thicker wall of the 6mm OD tube is so it will not kink when you assemble it! I will at some point draw up the design for the tool and post a few pics. You can make it yourself in less than half an hour.

    If it turns out that we are looking for 6/3 rather than the 5/3 that "gets the job done," Verell is going to order a roll of it and you will be able to get it from him. It will be good to have a solid U.S. source for the correct hose, not just something that gets the job done.

    According to the Cohline rep, we have to order it from Germany as there is none in the USA. No biggie.

    Birdman
     
  41. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    You can use a brake flaring tool vice to hold the line, thats what I used first then I just sat on the front step of my house (this is the critical part), then I pushed the line on with my hands and found that worked better.
     
  42. Birdman

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    You must have great technique because I couldn't do it like that....the hose kinked every time. I tried heating it, lubing it, heating it and lubing it, doing it cold, twisting it, wiggling it....every time it kinked or collapsed. Maybe that is the nature of the Cohline tubing, which I know you were not using on your Boxer. I think this is the real reason they use the thicker-walled 6mm tube.

    Alas, my improvised installation tool makes it easy.

    Birdman
     
  43. mwr4440

    mwr4440 Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Gentlemen,

    I'm in if "we" are going to do a Group Buy once we are sure of what we want.

    Also, I live in Germany and I'll see if I can get the stuff and at what price/meter if I can.

    I'll post Monday (NOV 19) or Tuesday (NOV 20) nite for most of you as I am on GMT+1 or US Eastern +6, as to what I find out.

    MWR4440
     
  44. Birdman

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    Mark,
    Great idea. It's nice to have a contact in Germany! We were told by the U.S. Cohline distributor that the 6/3.15 tubing we want is not popular enough for him to stock, so if we want it, we need to buy a roll of it from the manufacturer through the importer (U.S. Distributor) through a U.S. dealer. Meaning, we need to get a U.S. dealer to order it from the Distributor who would order it from Germany and they would either put it in the next container (January) or pay to have it FedExed. If we order enough, the extra cost to have it sent via air immediately is no big deal. Depending on how cheap you can get it in Germany, we may be able to save some money. However, Verell has a contact who is a dealer and will sell it to him at a very good price if we buy a lot, so who knows. One way or another, we are going to get the right injector hose!

    Today we will be taking apart some injection lines and get a confirmation on the ID of the 6mm stuff that is OEM on the injectors of the 308/Mondials. Stand by.

    Birdman
     
  45. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    It's not quite that complicated. The importer is the US offices of Cohline GMBH( the manufacturer). I've already talked to a US distributor who's willing to give me a very good price. The distributor I'm talking has enough of an 'in' with Cohline that it may be possible for Unobtainium Supply Co. to become a 'distributor' so the line would always be available rathar than just thru a one time group buy.
     
  46. Birdman

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    Sweet!
     
  47. stephenofkanza

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    When you guys find the right tubing count me in for a group buy. I have an 81 308 GTSi.

    stephen
     
  48. Verell

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    #46 Verell, Nov 18, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    We cut an original 6mm injector line donated by M.James today. The ID measured 2mm, wall thickness measured 2mm.

    Now to find a way to insert the barb fittings into a 6 x 2 line. Birdman did some experiments with the 5x3 line & found that it's very hard to push the barb into it unless you use a tool similar to the one the 911 forum's echrisconnor made (see pic).


    However, it doesn't appear possible to force the barb into a 6x2 line by hand. I'm going to get a few meters of 6x2 & see if I can make an arbor press based tool to do the insertion. Using a 6x2 line may well take either pre-heating the line & fittings, or else using a reamer like C&S Supply suggests.

    The other alternative is to use 6x3.14 line, pressing a barb into it by hand using a holder like echrisconner's is probably hard but doable.
    fuel_line_holder1096387016.jpg
     
  49. stephenofkanza

    stephenofkanza Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 5, 2005
    541
    Kansas
    Full Name:
    Stephen LeRoy Sherma
    Since gas stations don't have to post a 'contains ethanol' anymore (at least they don't have to in Kansas), it might a good idea to get gasoline and ethanol compatable tubing and hoses.
    It is not going to get any better.
    Just a thought.

    Stephen
     
  50. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
    Consultant Owner

    May 5, 2001
    6,905
    Groton, MA
    Full Name:
    Verell Boaen
    The OEM tubing is polyamide (aka Nylon(tm)). It's about as solvent resistant a material as you're going to find other than Teflon.
     
  51. RGigante

    RGigante F1 Rookie
    Project Master Owner

    Nov 1, 2006
    2,863
    Portugal
    I'm confused here ... I can't find a 6x2 line on the catalogue. It is either 6x3.15 or 6x4 ...
    Meanwhile there is a local (Portugal) stockist of Cohline, so I'll have prices later today. We can then compare them :)
     
  52. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 20, 2003
    6,682
    North shore, MA
    Full Name:
    THE Birdman
    Cohline doesn't make 6/2. There is another source someplace for the 6/2. I personally believe that the 6/2 is going to be very hard for people to work with and the 6/3 is going to be the best thing to use. The 5/3 is extremely tight on the connectors, so the ID of 3 is more than snug enough. You will not be able to assemble 2mm ID hose on the connectors without a press or a reamer to ream out the hose. Verell and I disagree on this but I think reaming the hose is a bad idea because it's unpredictable what will happen to the strength of the hose in that section.

    For now I have put 5/3 on the Mondial (which is what it had anyway) to get me going until we come up with the fatter stuff. I vote we get a roll of the 6/3 and test it out.

    Birdman
     

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