500 Testarossa 0636MDTR

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by 500tr, Jul 22, 2017.

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  1. 500tr

    500tr Formula Junior
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    #1 500tr, Jul 22, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    This 1997 stolen iconic car is back again.
    A gentleman and real Ferrari enthusiast has found the car 2015 in Italy. It has never left this country since it's theft. An expert has confirmed the authenticity of the car. Now it is back in Germany and after an extensive restoration it soon will be back on track. The original engine will be reinstalled after more than fifty years.
    This is a real sensation because everyone thought the car is lost forever.
    Congrats to the owner of this beauty 😉
    image.jpeg
     
  2. 500tr

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    #2 500tr, Jul 22, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Appetizer
    image.jpg
     
  3. 500tr

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    #3 500tr, Jul 22, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Appetizer
    image.jpg
     
  4. 500tr

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    #4 500tr, Jul 22, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Appetizer
    image.jpeg
     
  5. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
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    That's great news!
     
  6. Lemacc

    Lemacc Formula Junior
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    I read about this story in a german magazin some months ago.
    Just awesome that the "real" owner gets his baby back after so many years!

     
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  8. 500tr

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    #7 500tr, Jul 23, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The gentleman who has the car in his hands at the moment is very proud of it 😎
    image.jpg
     
  9. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
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    Wait, so it's not returned to Walter Schaefer from whom the car was stolen in 1997?
     
  10. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 Veteran
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    Once an insurance company pays for the theft damage the property usually goes into the ownership of the insurance company.

    Marcel Massini
     
  11. 500tr

    500tr Formula Junior
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    Usually correct, Marcel. But not in this case I'm very sure.
    Fortunately Schaefer did not lost it's property and he will be back on track in this very special car sooner or later. Let's wait and see. It will be a very pleasure for me to see him behind the steering wheel again...
     
  12. 500tr

    500tr Formula Junior
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    But interesting that this gentleman and not the insurance company reclaims ownership on the stolen car...
     
  13. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

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    For sure a tricky legal question ... more information available?
     
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  15. GIOTTO

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  16. Wolf

    Wolf Formula Junior

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    Hello,

    I am just a stupid M.D., not a lawyer, but how can this Mr Stehle buy a stolen car (in Italy, I suppose) and bring it to Germany without legal repercussions? Does that not fulfill the criminal offence of dealing in stolen goods? Why is the car not impounded by the authorities?

    Regards

    Wolfi
     
  17. malcolmjl

    malcolmjl Rookie

    Mar 27, 2014
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    Did they not find parts of the car soon after it was stolen? I imagine the current owner has been holding on to the bits and pieces of the car since then, likely voiding the full insurance pay out but retaining some part of the ownership? Interesting story and excited to hear more, but it'll be impossible to know all the details of what was likely a very complicated insurance deal.
     
  18. wildcat326

    wildcat326 Formula 3
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    Two points:

    1) Often an insurance company will allow the owner to purchase the car back from them if it's totaled out or recovered after theft loss, whenever they move to dispose of it.

    2) If the above were NOT the case here, and insurance paid out for loss, then the insurance co now owns the chassis, and and can sell it on with good title to whomever it pleases (laws differ in some countries as to whether it would be a clear or salvage title or bill of sale). Whomever buys it is NOT receiving stolen goods, so long as the party entitled to the car - if ever recovered - is the seller.
     
  19. Michael Stehle

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    Hello @Wolf,

    It is very easy! First I bought the car from the insurance company then I bought my car in Italy (in the case it is the real #0636 MD/TR)...
    The insurance got the rights of the car one month after the car was announced as stolen.
    Volkmar Spielmann claim to have the rights of #0636 after he "bought" them together with the stolen V12 engine (#1839) and some other stolen parts for 50'T Euro from Walter Schäfer. But at that time the insurance payed already € 500 T to the old owner.
    Spielmann sold the stolen engine which belongs at that time already the insurance for 100 T €.
    So he doubled his invest already!
    Now he try to make from nothing the real money!!
    Fortunately it is not allowed to sell engines which you do not own to others...
     
  20. Michael Stehle

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    Mr. Spielmann why you write this question when you already know the answer from the insurance where I bought the car?

    Do you think because you already lost your reputation by getting bankrupt you can destroy other people's reputation without paying for it?
     
  21. 500tr

    500tr Formula Junior
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    Maybe good connections to the state attorneys?
    Remember Wolfi, Germany is not far away from a banana republic 🙃🙃🙃
     
  22. Michael Stehle

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    Yes, this gentleman is proud of it! 🙂
     
  23. Michael Stehle

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    Yes, and here in Germany even lawyers are dealing with stolen things like engines, parts etc.
     
  24. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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  25. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

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  26. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

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    And: if in some jurisdictions someone buys stolen goods in good faith from a dealer, he gets a clear title and becomes the protected owner (e.g. Belgium and Swater’s 375+).
     
  27. 500tr

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    Maybe, but this gentleman was definitely not in good faith.
     
  28. bertdeboer340

    bertdeboer340 Formula 3

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    A very familiar photo... I took that in 1997..
     
  29. 500tr

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    I was there, too...
     
  30. bertdeboer340

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    #28 bertdeboer340, Jul 25, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The original photo and 2 more...
    500 TR 0636MDTR -1.jpg
    500 TR 0636MDTR -1a.jpg
    500 TR 0636MDTR -1ab.jpg
     
  31. 500tr

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    Thank you very much, Bert.
    Please excuse me that I used a picture with your copyright.
     
  32. bertdeboer340

    bertdeboer340 Formula 3

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    #30 bertdeboer340, Jul 25, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    A few more.. 1995 or 1996 at the Nurburgring..
    500 TR 0636MDTR -2aa.jpg
    500 TR 0636MDTR -2a.jpg
    500 TR 0636MDTR -2ac.jpg
    500 TR 0636MDTR -2ab.jpg
     
  33. Michael Stehle

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    #31 Michael Stehle, Jul 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
    I bought the car from the insurance for the amount which the payed Walter Schäfer for his lost. Then I bought my car back in Italy.

    Walter Schäfer lost his rights to the insurance company one month after he announced the car as stolen.
    Soon after the police found the 12 Cylinder engine #1893 and some other parts and gave everything wrongly instead to the insurance to Walter Schäfer.

    In 2003 Volkmar Spielmann (at that time the lawyer of Walter Schäfer) purchased the stolen engine (#1893) and some other stolen parts and the engine block of my car from Walter Schäfer for the ridiculously price of 50 T €. From that package Volkmar Spielmann claiming the rights of my car "as long as they are not belonging to the insurance company". He sold the stolen engine for 100 T € and kept the property (the other stolen parts of the car) until now.

    Before I purchased the rights from the car from the insurance company Volkmar Spielmann tried to sell me "his rights" for 375 T€ in the knowledge of the fact (as the lawyer of Walter Schäfer) that the rights are belonging to the insurance company.
    Further he is fully aware of the fact that he sold illagally the property (the stolen engine #1893) of the insurance company.

    Now he try to destroy the reputation of my car and my person by posting pictures of my personal Instagram account which he get also for sure no rights on that.
    Maybe Volkmar Spielmann thinks he can loose nothing by this kind of behavior ?! But I like to join events like Mille Miglia by driving my cars around! Therefore I hope the Ferrari World believe me!!!

    Michael Stehle
     
  34. Michael Stehle

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    #32 Michael Stehle, Jul 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
    You both are so funny! ������
    You know it is the same republic where lawyers buy stolen parts such like engines (#1893) from their clients for nearly nothing and later the sell the stolen parts...
     
  35. Michael Stehle

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    ...but this is what you are usually doing, or do you ask me for the rights of my pictures on Instagram?
     
  36. 500tr

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    The Ferrari World will believe what German civil courts decide, believe me :)
     
  37. Michael Stehle

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    #35 Michael Stehle, Jul 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
    No one will simple loose the property of a car. In this case Walter Schäfer had a contract with the insurance company and according to the contract the rights of the car went to the insurance company one month after he announced the car stolen towards the insurance company.
    The insurance company paid Walter Schäfer exactly the amount of money he insured his formerly "property".

    In 2003 Walter Schäfer got enough of his "property" and he sold the "rights of the car as long they will not belong to the insurance company" and the stolen parts (engine #1893, 4 borrani wheels, the tailgate and some sheets of metal) to his lawyer (Volkmar Spielmann) together with a 4 cylinder engine block for 50 T €.Volkmar Spielmann sold directy after his deal with his client (Walter Schäfer) the stolen 12 cylinder engine (which was not hand over to the insurance company) for 100 T €.

    It is now your secret why you are saying that Walter Schäfer did not "lost" his property and why it should be a pleasure for you to see him behind the steering wheel?
     
  38. 500tr

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    That's not correct, as you've been told from the AXA Versicherungs AG, the insurance company. Schaefer never lost his property as well as the insurance company never got it.
    Please ask Mr. XXX from AXA, you know his mail adress.

    That's the reason why you did not pay any money to AXA and AXA will refuse any payment from you.
     
  39. 500tr

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    No it is not my secret. Again, please ask Mr. XXX. But he has already told you 'my secret'. And German civil courts will tell you the same, too.
     
  40. Michael Stehle

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    This is not the truth!
    ...the only thing a German civil court will tell you is that it is not allowed to sell engines (#1893) which you do not own!!!
     
  41. Michael Stehle

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    #39 Michael Stehle, Jul 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
    The insurance company already sold us the property!
     
  42. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    After 20 years it is somewhat naive to believe that car will be impounded.
    More interesting in the actual situation is what happens when the current custodian try to register the car. If the car is still listed as being stolen than the red light might be flickering at the KBA (Kraftfahrtbundesamt in Flensburg/Germany, the highest German car authority that supervised all cars registered here)...
     
  43. wildcat326

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    Well, this got heated quickly. Look at the bright side: Whomever of Schafer, Stehle, and Spielmann succeeds in crushing the others court, at least the car has turned up:)

    But then, I'm a glass half-full guy.
     
  44. Kitbash

    Kitbash Rookie

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    "Show me a hero and I'll write you a tragedy"--F. Scott Fitzgerald

    "Show me an old Ferrari and I'll write you a never-ending daytime drama"--Me
     
  45. BIRA

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    Hi Wolfi,
    I may not be an MD , just a stupid lawyer, but someone would have to explain to me why insurance who is entitled to recovery of a stolen car would sell it for the amount they paid 20 years earlier to the then owner to cover his loss. Can I buy a GTO stolen in 1965 for the price for which it was insured at that time??
    Remind me a funny story of a famous Ferrari Mondial sold for the price of repairs 20 years earlier,,,and 20 years of storage at Ferrari,,,but those were other times, 40 years ago!!
     
  46. Ferrari_250tdf

    Ferrari_250tdf Formula Junior

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  47. wildcat326

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    Depending on the jurisdiction in which a claim is being litigated, there may be laws against an insurer "profiting" from a write-off, meaning they have to sell the wreck/recovery for no more than the amount they paid out on the claim. Otherwise, there could be a legal issue with them having written it off, rather than repaired/replaced it. For instance, if they paid out $500k, but then sold it for $1.2m, they might be required to give the $700k difference to the original policy holder. Seldom does inflation correction come into play. Therefore, the insurance company's main goal is to recapture as much as they can in order to be made whole. RARELY do cases like this come up, where the written off vehicle chassis is worth so much more than their financial outlay.
     
  48. BIRA

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  49. Marcel Massini

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    And some popcorn, please.

    Marcel Massini
     
  50. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO Formula 3
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    Money... Lawyers... But for some people interested in history, who has stolen this car ? And where was found the car ? In an old barn ? A garage ? Are the robbers in jail ? And what happened to the body ? Seems that a "carrozziere" tried something... A last question : who is "bella-donna" ? This person posted some photos of #0636mdtr in the other thread and claimed it is #0614mdtr.
     
  51. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    And about a 100 fake profiles making character references maybe?
     
  52. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie
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    And Max Vito just for kicks.
     

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