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Discussion in 'Porsche' started by DriveAfterDark, Mar 4, 2013.
Geneva Motor Show 2013: Porsche - PistonHeads
I want that 964 Carrera RS more than ever, TBH...
I love everything about it except for PDK only... but watching this gets me excited about even that:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECATvlRf3ls]Porsche 991 GT3 inside look - interview with Andreas Preuninger - YouTube[/ame]
I was in Johannesburg this weekend and finally saw a few 991s. Couldn't believe how much I liked it (normally not the biggest 911 fan about, with the exception of 997s and 993s!). Sounded fantastic.
I started dreaming how a GT3 would be and what it would look like.
Looks fantastic, but thoroughly disappointed in PDK only. Perhaps they'll make the RS with an option for either gearbox but I'm having my doubts .
Surely it's doable to just dump a 7 speed manual in there...?
Egad. That center console in this vid above leading up to the waterfall like section with nav screen adorning the dash... Is that what new GT3 buyers want?
No sure this is the car that will make all the purists let go of their low-miles 2011's for me to consider as a purchase, at least not immediately. More systems, More complex, heavier, larger. I wonder where in the design process they decided that rear wheel steering was required to get the performance they were shooting for? I can't imagine that it was a key design characteristic of the planned platform. Of course, I am just a lay guy arm-chairing this and I am sure its an awesome car, I just wonder what was the real story is.
the big loss to me is no more metzger engine
PDK is great guys...learn to love it although I am surprised the 7 speed manual isn't an option.
electric power steering isn't a big deal, feels very similar to the 996/997 steering.
I agree 110 percent !
Has rear wheel steering also... rear wheels can either turn parallel to the front wheels (higher speed), or in the opposite direction (manuverability), depending on speed and turn angle...
Honda had that in the Prelude in the late 80's... Some GM pickups had it as an option for awhile
That's a huge change.
Supposedly is about 10 seconds faster around the 'ring...
Porsche 911 GT3 hauls 469 hp behind the steerable rear wheels | Motoramic - Yahoo! Autos
I like it.
Burn them! Burn them! Damn you to hell Porsche!!
Yup. Anyone who would dumb this car down with an old school manual clutch would probably do better to get something less extreme to start with.
Declutching by pulling both paddles is interesting. Not sure i have skill to use it but might be fun to be passenger with someone who does. Wonder if ferrari will add this
I thought they already did?
haven't driven a DCT Ferrari but the F1's I've driven go into neutral when you pull both paddles at once.
It looks like a great car, the PDK-only doesn't bother me. 9k redline
Is that what he means by 'declutching', I've honestly never heard that term before. Is that what Porsche is doing with the PDK on the GT3?
Been counting the seconds for that one, Mr Mayor?
I think a DCT is perfect for this car, but I can see how the Porsche community may have just wet their collective pants with this announcement. Methinks the 997 GT3 RS 4.0 just shot up in value.
It's a track day car so PDK makes sense for a good chunk of perspective buyers. But GT3s are also seen as hardcore street cars by many Porsche fans. For them, Porsche should've kept the manual option going while regulations still allow.
What I want to know is if that new, tight engine will fit in either a 987 of 981 Cayman and mate up to the 6 manual. If so, there's potential for one hell of a "Porsche" in a few years. (I remember reading that this block is just a hardened version of the 9A1 (hardened with more heat treatment.))
. . . while the RGT market may have just grown a bit.
I am happy to see Porsche go this direction. We have been doing some work on the PDK for a couple of race teams and the gearbox is simply awesome.
It is blisteringly fast and offers the driver so much more in the way of performance that I can not find a single reason why anyone would not want to go this direction especially if they want to be competitive.
Wow. This car sounds amazingly fast around a track. Torque-vectoring, rear-steer, PDK, 470HP, 3200 lbs (is that up from 997 GT3?). 9000 RPM! Love it!
This car will get serious attention from me for the role that CS and Scud fill of "back road fun drive and occasional track day car".
Too bad, yes it will be fatser round a track, but less fun and engaging to drive. Basicaly a porche GTR. Methinks they have lost the plot. there were always other cars thatw ere objectively faster than a GT3 and yet the GT3 was sold out, that should have told porche that these cars were valued for subjective performance as well as objective numbers.
They are denuding the GT3 franchise just as BMNW did to the M franchise, seriously today who needs a M5. Between its numb electric steering, laggy turbo motor, and auot box what seperates a M% from a AMG merc or the new Audi Rs7 both of which are aguably as good or better.
What now seperates a GT3 from a GTR.
We want sportscars, not just performance cars.
More like Bean counting.
I think the "we" is now a distinct minority. Kind of like the "we want carbs" crowd.
I understand where you are coming from with this but there is a lot of difference between a GTR and a GT3 that keep the GT3 as far more of a drivers car:
- Normally aspirated vs. turbo
- A torque peak on the GT3 that is higher than the redline on the GTR (kidding, but close!)
- Rear wheel drive only
- About 600+ lbs!
So, "no" I don't think this latest GT3 will drive similar to a GTR. That said, I do agree that the analog cars with high driver input and that mysterious thing called "feel" and "engagement" are going the way of the dodo bird. The 458, to use a Ferrari example, is not to my liking for the same reasons (as compared to a Scud or CS for example, which reminds me the Scud has an F1 transmission and an e-diff - two recent additions to the GT3 - and it screams of "feel" and "engagement" and "analog" despite the technology...). But, I still admire the 458 for what it is and what it is capable of. Same with the 991 GT3...
Amongst DRIVERS the WE is not a minority. We can see that BMW made a stick M5 to satisfy that minority. My local Fcar dealer has told me of any number of 458 sales that did not take place because its flappy paddle only. We know a 430 with stick fetches a 15% premium.
As soon as FI could funtion with the same or better performance than carb there was no issue. The first FI cars had flat cams compred to their carb models because the bosch unit could not take high lift and were therefore inferior performance wise. There is no end of conversion for early FI porches to carbs or EFI for this reason. Look at the performance drop when the 308 went to FI.
Now when it comes to driving pleasure, I have no problem with EPS per se, its just that the current units detract from the driving pleasure, especialy in a rear engined porche part of whose appeal was that live steering feel. Removing the clutch and a riflebolt stick, once again further removes interaction with the car, all done in the name of performance and efficiency. Yet what is lost is driving pleasure, and if ultimate performance is all that counts i can just go for a GTR.
Remember that old BMW slogan, the ultimate driving machine, we are now in the era of the ultimate machine which can be programed to drive faster.
Yes a PDK does two things. It opens up the product to a wider audience, and it provides statisticaly faster accleration. So yes you can now have your GT3 as an everyday driver, it will pootle around in traffic just like any hyundai. But what is lost int he process is a true sportscar. Now we have a machine which can be commanded to perform tricks, it can go round a track faster, but it can only speak to you in a very muted way, and I will bet it wont meld with you.
There is a reason why an AT or PDK motorcycle has never suceeded. Those who ride bikes do so for the experience and joy of the ride. In fact most motorcycles models are made for the experience of the ride not ultimate raw performance.
in this era of performance cars whose very objective numbers exceed even the best drivers ability on the street, and most drivers ability on the track, why not make funtional yet emotive machines that are superlatively fast yet also fun to drive, a machine that is an extension of your body, as opposed to a computer keyboard ride in the form of a wheel and two pedals.
the futire will prove me correct. High performace sports cars will slowly die out as distinct models as they will offer little over the hot versions of regular cars. Only when that tactility is brought back will they see renewed growth. Ferrari may be immune to this because they have styling and dramam to partialy compensate. Porche has neither of these attributes.
You have made your point comprehensively and well. Yet, per your final point, I don't fear for Porsche. The sad reality is they sell many more Panamera's and Cayenne's than 991 and Boxster and Cayman together. And, I suspect they will likely grown their audience with the new 991 line-up "net" (sure, they *may* lose a few fans of the brand, but - as you point out- they will gain some too). IMHO, their biggest risk to success is pricing. 911's have gotten *very* expensive over the past few years (sure, everything has, but...). If you meant they only have to fear losing sales of high performance models, well, I disagree with that too. Their approach of selling multiple flavors of each platform has proven to be a winner and they will continue to do so IMHO. Of course, one can color their efforts as "not high performance", but I suspect they still will.
Final point, and its obviously a religion in that some folks can't comprehend a different view than their own, but I actually *like* paddle shifters *and* manual gearboxes.
I thought I would hate a sports car with flappy paddles...until I owned one. Then I took a car like a scud and CS on the track and loved F1 boxes even more. And, I even like the shifting around town and on fun drives. Please understand, I still love manual gearboxes too. You see, its not religion nor some standard of "love or appreciation" for sports cars nor a "statement of skills" that I aspire to that requires me to appreciate manual gearboxes though...I just like 'em. And automated manuals. Kinda reminds me I like blondes and brunette's, librarians and bartenders, and...well, enough with that analogy
Being the owner of one of the last GT3's with a manual, I look forward to a great trade in value when I go for the new PDK equipped car.
I remember when the Porsche racing community complained about ferrari having the sequential gearbox and Porsche still being a manual and how much laptime was lost by having to shift manually and take hands off steering wheel. I raced a 997 Cup in the Rolex series and the sequential box was a godsend.
This PDK box is fantastic and will make the car even more of a track weapon.
and Porsche still has that problem as many of the Grand Am GT cars are now paddle shift and the 997 is still sequential....
the new GT Porsches will be paddle shift
You make and clarify some great points. Yes Porche sells a lot of Caynnes and Panameras. They also sell multiple versions of the 991. So I see no reason to have blanded out the one pure raw car they still made, its not as if there are not multiple other choices in the Porche line. They blanded out and destroyed the turbo which was the hard core model, the GT3 happened almost by accident, they had to make a few for the road, then it was a sucess now its being ruined.
As to paddle****, I am sure it has its place, and yes its faster especialy on atrack, and more comfortable on the street. But many of us drive on the street and track for fun and recreation, therefore an engaging car is more desireable. The GT3 was that car, and now but in name its gone.
As for analogies here is another one maybe more apt. I like all women, but in bed I value a good or great lover, someone I can feel and who feels me, someone to meld with and ignite passion. I like the electricty of the touch and moment. On the other hand nothing is more dissapointing than taking that ultra hot women to bed and discovering that once into it we are dealing with some flappy paddles, if you get my drift.
BTW my take on the sound synthesisers in may moderns is fake orgasms.
Ok I saw the video to the end. They claim its even more of an engaging drive. They are sensitive to the debate and claim to have the answers. Lets see what the roadt testers say.
Not everyone is trying to shave a 1/10 of a second on a track gig.
I will always love manual transmissions.
This new PDK seems pretty trick....the way I'm understanding it is you can "pop the clutch" so to speak?
I look forward to Chris Harris' review.
He'll be THE guy for this review. The man lives for lightweight 911s. He is very much to blame for my recent aircooled 911 RS obsession (the 964).
Funny you mention this....I've been doing the same recently....helluva car...I want one!
Looks great. Can;t wait for the RS.
I submit that if they had retained a manual gearbox for this GT3, it really should have been the six speed rather than the seven.
The super-overdrive seventh is outside this car's mission and is superfluous. It would just mess up the shift pattern.
I was being sarcastic.
Love the manual all you want. They just don't have a place in the modern world.
I tried to like flappy paddles until I owned a Maserati, BMW, Ferrari & Lamborghini that had them. I am not modern I am old and those things are not for me. I am one of those who thinks the last Ferrari was a 430. To each his own but whenever I see paddles the first thing that comes to my mind is they must want to sell to people who cannot drive a stick. sorry but that is what I think. I even put a 458 turned into a manual in Mr. Breeze I hope they leave that part in in the film!
Lets put it this way. 10 years from now the 014 GT3 will be s used car, with so many epensive electrical bits to put right that it wont be worth it. Its performance will also be eclipsed by newer metal.
Wheras any 07-11 GT3 will be hailed as one of the greats, ala 2.7 RS, they type of car thye dont make anyomre but should.
That means for drivers, collectors car buffs etc the late GT3 is one awesome machine, a classic already, whereas the new GT3 is likely to be just another newer faster car, but really less interesting or pleasurable to own and drive. Its not just about the paddleshift.
Engineers always find a way to add this or thsat to make something faster. What has been lost is the original core mission. A bare bones stripped back car, directly linked to a race car. The modern equivalent of a 250SWB. What we have int he new GT3 is really just a much faster more nimble and harder Carrera.
A slightly "slower" but more viceral machine would have floated my boat, something more honest without the doodads and under 3000lbs. Something durable ror track running without so many doodads to go wrong that running it at the track would be financialy ruinous, something simple and solid enough to last being used as these cars should for years without having all kinds of things go wrong, or to worry about. Somehting that when driven on the street at 6/10ths is a pure unadulterated joy to drive because everything works as it should and there is a constant communication between machine and drive. In other words a GT3, a car wich was never the fastest, but was more than fast enough, and sold on its many virtues, the type of virtues so many moderns lack.
They then could have sold whatever this new GT3 is as a Gt4 which matches its video game pedigree and would seem better to the poseur crowd because it is a Gt4 which is more than a 3, and the print says its faster.
I think part of the issue here, and its evident in the video is that the 997 GT3 really was a specialist item, and they had trouble producing them in any volume, so the new car can go down the regular production line, because well, its really just a faster regular production item, like the turbo.
Will be faster, undoubtableywill, it have the magic, I seriously question that. WEe already know that the 991 carrrera great car as it is, has lost the magic.
What magic there is will be enhgineered in ersatz.
So PDK and electric steering are now "pure and raw???"
Well they're trying their very best to sell it that way....
I guess the F430 Scud was pretty raw, and that used flappy paddles.
Cheaper to build too, and you can charge more for the car.
Yes, this is the same company that charges more for the hard top, Cayman, than the vert, Boxster. LOL
The new 911 GT3: PH Blog - PistonHeads
One more article from PistonHeads.com
I think this says it best.
the gt3 will have Rear wheel steering
yup and lets burn the Dinos while were at it.