To much Dioxin / PCB in the sediment. Can not get an EPA waiver to dredge.
This has to be one helluva car. But I agree.. I'd imagine that 100' under and another 10-15' of silt would require something on the water, not over it. Probably easier to find some divers to uncover it and attach mounting points for air bags (or making a platform for the air bags). I can't see a large helo pilot feeling comfortable with that sort of leverage in a larger body of water. I do know a great photog (who is also a qualified diver) if you want to document it.
My formal education and background is Marine Engineering. A little bit of research and checking on some lake recovered planes and even an old train engine leaves me and the experts from my school feeling the exact opposite. There is near zero oxygen and no UV light and no salt. Rubber and wood would have some issues over time but glass, steel and aluminum would tend to do quite well in an undisturbed state. Bill
Well I'm an economics major in college, so obviously you have much more knowledge than I do with this haha. It was just an uneducated guess by yours truly. If/when you recover this car I think we would all love to see the pictures in its unrestored and recovered state
Alfa Romeo 6C 2500 Pininfarina Longchassis Cabrio, found 2007. Do you want more? Hein Image Unavailable, Please Login
IF the water is very cold, the condition will be even better. I have read a good bit about WWII era planes recovered from Russia since the Soviet collapse, many of them from lakes in the extreme north. Some of these planes are in remarkable condition, paint and military markings clearly readable while guages are intact and even hydraulic systems are still sealed. OF course I have no idea where the car your referencing is located, but in the case of efforts to recover planes the biggest obstacle to overcome often ends up being the local Govt. They often will demand bribes that far exceed the value of the object being recovered because they have absurd notions of what the recovered artifact may ultimately be worth. Then there are the issues of making sure you have bribed ALL of the officials required and that the Govt. does not change before you remove the artifact or you get to bribe a whole new set of officials. The team that worked to remove the B-17 "Swamp Ghost" from Papau, New Guinea ran into all of that. Terry
....this are the remains of chassis #3057, the ex-Benoit Musy car, found in a "workshop" in Angola in the late 80ies. Today a 300S is worth almost 4 Million Euros. #3057 was restored later and rebodied and resides today in the USA. Photo-copyrighted by Stein Johnson, from my book "THE MASERATI 300S" published by www.datsonwalton.com Ciao! Walter Image Unavailable, Please Login
Bill Noon, I'm assuming that you were joking with regards to the helo pulling the Ferrari out of the muck at the bottom of a lake. Even a Skycrane doesn't have the lift to unstick the car. Besides, a brute force pull would almost certainly badly damage the car. I suspect that if you pumped all of the the material that was 'dredged' and had it processed, you could probably get approval. Regards, Art S.
Would appear that this is completely correct! Look at the Mini Cooper recovered on this page. http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/nyefoto.htm http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/nye33.jpg
There are a slew of illicit ways to get the car off the bottom, to the shore and squirrel it away. Once you have it, unless you live in Russia or certain Persian Gulf States / Horn of Africa what do you do with it and how do you get it to such a nation with lax import rules. I won't risk my own reputation or licenses only to see the car off the bottom by any means possible. The car's value to me can only be achieved by legal removal. At the moment here is the problem in a nut shell: Army Corp of Engineers and EPA will not allow any dredging or sediment displacement period. Silt is soft and the car can be moved by five or six divers. Floats would get the car to the surface but again, no where can the car be "floated" and moved of the shoreline as the water and shoreline is strictly controlled by the Army Corp of Engineers. It must be heavy lifted up and out of the water and able to clear 100 to 150' of trees and low hills. There are a few fields nearby that could be rented potentially and a haz mat team could then clean the car of residual silt. Once the car is free of the bottom it would need to be haz mat bagged in place at the water's surface. Weight of car, silt, bag and lift material will exceed 5,500lbs but not exceed 6,000 by most estimates. I supervised asbestos removal and have contacts in the industry that can deal with the clean room and near clean room required tent set ups, decon etc... as well as legal disposal of the wash and waste. About ten years ago when av gas was 2.25 a gallon and JP5 / JP7 was 90 cents a gallon, we figured at least four ferry flights to get a heavy lift helo to a suitable staging area. Time in the air would be limited but not impossible. The logistic expense for this will not be cheap and that's assuming someone provides a heavy lift helo that can handle that weight for a minimal per hour fee. ($2,750 to $3,200 per hour as of a few years ago... not sure what they are getting today. The biggest hold-up are the local, State and Federal authorities all of whom have a stack of CCR, CSR and CFR documents that would take a fleet of lawyers to sort through just to start with. Until, I can figure that part out, the rest is just academic. But then again, I have not given up yet! Cheers, Bill
On the recovery from fresh water, if you walk by the United terminal at O'hare Airport(Chicago) you can see a F4F Wildcat that was pulled out of Lake Michigan. They said the aircraft had little corrosion and is restored to perfect condition. They pulled several WWII aircraft from the lake. They sat on the bottom for over 50 years. I think an old car would also have a great chance. The deeper(and colder) the water the better. Salt water wrecks are not as lucky. Tom Tanner/Ferrari Expo 2009 model contest and photography display-Chicago April 25th 2009 at Continental Ferrari/Maserati
Great story Mr. Noon. I wish you the best of luck. Please keep us posted. Did you say this car is in Canada? I only say this because you had asked Peter a question in reference to Canada. Also, I am surprised no one has asked what model Ferrari you are talking about?!
Yes, I saw one of the numerous recovered aircraft from Michigan lake. At the Kalamazoo Air Zoo Museum. It was a SBD Dauntless during restoration. The paint with all the markings was still intact.
So how did it end up there? You say you did it? "Hey doesn't "barchetta" mean "little boat", let's see if it will float!"
At the moment here is the problem in a nut shell: Army Corp of Engineers and EPA will not allow any dredging or sediment displacement period. Silt is soft and the car can be moved by five or six divers. Floats would get the car to the surface but again, no where can the car be "floated" and moved of the shoreline as the water and shoreline is strictly controlled by the Army Corp of Engineers. I am not sure that I follow your logic here. Neither the EPA or, Heavens forbid, the Army Corps have any numerical national criteria for sediment quality. The Army has fought such criteria tooth and nail for decades. As a consequence the EPA gave up. There are none for dioxins at all. Nothing. I published the first set of national, informal, non-regulatory sediment quality guidelines back in 1990 and again in 1995, but nothing for dioxins. They were applicable only to saltwater, not freshwater. It is nearly impossible to do so, because dioxins are not toxic, they are teratogenic, meaning they affect the progeny, not the exposed animals. The only state with enforceable regulatory criteria is Washington and they are only for saltwater. No other state and no Canadian province has criteria. Manitoba, BC and Nova Scotia have advisory guidelines, most of them developed by my close friend in Nanaimo who I trained, none has any regulatory criteria. California is working on their's. Australia and NZ have adopted my values as criteria. South Korea, Brazil, the UK, France, Germany, several US states have informally adopted my values to manage contaminated sediment but not as criteria adopted by their respective legislatures. Only the Ductch have regulatory criteria for their saltwater harbors, developed under my guidance. So, I think a smart set of attorneys would be able to throw the regulatory agency you are dealing with out on the street. Hook this baby up to a couple of big tow trucks and tow her out. So, we can see.
Float her to the surface, then lift her away with a Sea King. If she's light enough for 6 divers to move her, she's gotto be an interesting car!
Hi Guys, I am a little jammed for time today. Just a couple of notes... In general, there is not really too much more I am going to add regarding this particular car. Hate to give too much away for the moment. The waterway, spill way adjacent levies, tributaries and surrounding watershed are all strictly under the supervision, maintenance and care of the Army Corp of Engineers. Nothing commercial goes in or out or can access or touch the water without their written approval. Like most inner water-ways, the maintenance to the levies and banking have been deferred or never touched since the WPA programs in the 1930s. At one time the adjacent water shed areas were used for recreational purposes. The EPA had deemed the area suitable for Superfund Clean-Up money but as of last year no plan or timetable exists for any work. (Maybe the new administration coming in January might move the program along.) At one point updates to other levies and a spill way would have lowered the water level significantly. That would really change the recovery scenario but again, Federal money and the Army Corp of Engineers current "band-aid" program of maintenance and repair keeps that on the back-burner. In addition to EPA and Army Corp of Engineers having direct control over the area, the standing CCR, CSR and CFR also need to be followed. Some might risk skipping the chain of command and communication to access the car. Not me. Good bet the car could sit right where it is for many years to come. Highly unlikely much further damage or decay is going to occur as the silt keeps it both oxygen and UV free. Cheers, Bill
