Blown gasket or worse..? | FerrariChat

Blown gasket or worse..?

Discussion in '206/246' started by pshoejberg, Nov 3, 2016.

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  1. pshoejberg

    pshoejberg Formula 3
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    #1 pshoejberg, Nov 3, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Gents, it has not been my day. After running my 246 L series engine at low load for 2 x 5 minutes yesterday it has developed a cooling water leak from two head studs at cylinder 2 & 3 (See picture). Have I blown a head gasket or even worse cracked the head? I am not completely sure that all the cooling fluid has been circulated around in all voids and cannot rule out if the head temperature has been too high. I am running Elring gaskets from SF and both engine block and head surface was in good condition prior to assembly. Any input much appreciated before i start to pull the head. I have not re-torqued the head since assembly and there is no indication of cooling water in the cylinders or cooling water escaping between block and head.

    Regards

    Peter
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  2. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    #2 Rifledriver, Nov 3, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2016
    Elring gaskets are your problem. They moved production to Spain and changed the material. The new material lacks the compressibility to seal motors with some of the design features they have and the old gaskets were designed for. I am not aware of anyone who uses them any more on these engines. I have all of mine custom made. It typically costs less too.

    I will add that the only reason you do not have external water leakage is because it is not a wet liner motor. On the wet liner motors the portion of the liner that stands proud of the block will not imbed in the gasket preventing sealing of the water passages of the block and head. The metal fire rings of the gasket are reducing clamping pressure just enough that water intrusion to the studs is still happening. If you did a before and after measurement of the old and new gasket thickness you would see a big difference in the degree of crush.
     
  3. pshoejberg

    pshoejberg Formula 3
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    Thanks for your input Rifledriver. I am absolutely a new beginner when it comes to gasket technology and I know your not! I can now foresee a long haired discussion around head gasket brand and materials....-:) The Elring gasket is what someone on this site recommends for the 246...Other alternatives are Speeso or Victor Reinz....but don’t you think I might have blown the Elring gasket or the head?
     
  4. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    I doubt you have another problem. What you are going through is what a great many others have experienced in recent years. Elring was for a very long time the go to head gasket. Their OE parts are still quite good, I believe they are still German made. The aftermarket replacement division for older cars was moved to Spain and the material was changed. As with many parts for older cars original design needs are ignored or forgotten. Look at the many reproduction parts for these cars that just do not work or fit. Elring is now for all intents and purposes a reproduction part.

    I have no experience with Speeso or Victor Reinz in Ferrari applications so cannot comment.
     
  5. pshoejberg

    pshoejberg Formula 3
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    I see your point Rifledriver and I have also had many bad experiences with high priced low quality parts that are floating around on the market for our old cars. I just feel pain having to remove the head(s) for installing new gaskets if they are the culprit!

    Regards

    Peter
     
  6. Nickrry

    Nickrry Karting

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    I echo all the previous comments and have been here. I have Victor Reinze gaskets and they seem fine. My concern however is, how do you know the leak emanates from the studs? there looks to be a lot of coolant in the plug well and fro this to happen it would have to leak upwards from the studs. I would dry everything off and repeat the test and watch where the leak starts from.
     
  7. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    The picture shows coolant on the top of the stud and nut. Leaking up through there is exactly what happens.
     
  8. pshoejberg

    pshoejberg Formula 3
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    That's all correct....leaking up through the threads in considerable amount...
     
  9. swift53

    swift53 F1 Veteran
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    Try pressurizing the cooling system while the engine is cold and see what happens.

    The stud washers may be distorted?

    Regards, Alberto
     
  10. dgt

    dgt Formula 3
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    Peter,
    Did you use a thread sealant on the head studs into the block?

    Regards, Andrew
     
  11. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Washer problems will not cause leakage around the threads. Leakage at the threads is obvious in the photo. Besides, seepage into the stud cavities over time is not unusual. Full on pressurized leakage is not.
     
  12. pshoejberg

    pshoejberg Formula 3
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    The studs were never removed, so I don't know if they have been sealed before...

    Peter
     
  13. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Never sealed a stud in my life. As I recall they are in blind holes.
     
  14. daviekj

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  15. pshoejberg

    pshoejberg Formula 3
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    #15 pshoejberg, Nov 3, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2016
    Thanks for the hint...I already looked at that post this morning. Mine was not that badly aligned as the head / block pictured in that post, but it is still obvious that the waterways are obstructed significantly.

    Best Peter
     
  16. pshoejberg

    pshoejberg Formula 3
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    This forum is fantastic. You are never alone with your problems and the amount of good advise is incredible. Last time I was about to pull the heads due to one cylinder with low compression I was talked into relaxing and the problem cured it self! I am not so sure that it will go that easy this time...-:)
    However, I think I will try to re-torque the heads before I do anything too drastic. Anyone that can recommend a good procedure for that?

    Peter
     
  17. daviekj

    daviekj Formula Junior
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    Peter, there is some blurb I put in the thread referenced above about re torque. I do this on all my engine rebuilds ( not that I do that many ). Basically torque to setting as per manual, heat the engine up ( I do this with a gas space heater while on engine stand ) back of each bolt quarter to half a turn and then re torque. Doing each bolt to completion in turn and in the order of the workshop manual. Kevin
     
  18. daviekj

    daviekj Formula Junior
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    Just to be clear, I let the engine cool to before slackening the bolts for re torque.
     
  19. pshoejberg

    pshoejberg Formula 3
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    Thanks for the input Kevin...much appreciated! You do not lube the threads then?
     
  20. daviekj

    daviekj Formula Junior
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    Post 346 and photo on the second page of the same thread. I used a small amount of copper ease on the stud shafts and threads. Maybe the professionals frown upon this, but I have done this on all my engines and never had an issue. Can't prove it has benefit, but not had any downside.
     
  21. pshoejberg

    pshoejberg Formula 3
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    I did the same, a small amount of copper grease on the studs, but not on the threads. Don't think it can harm anything. However, I lubed the threads lightly with engine oil prior to applying torque. Did you back off the bolts one by one when re-torqueing or did you back off all of them before torqueing up again?
     
  22. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Different lubricants create different amounts of tension on fasteners due to changing the rotational friction. Using antisieze will lower the friction and increase the incidence of failure from yield or excess stretch. It isn't a good idea particularly on Ferrari head studs, they are not the best to begin with. I never use them personally. Antiseize, particularly copper antiseize is really only properly used on rod bolts in titanium rods. For standard rod bolts, main bolts or nuts and head bolts or nuts use motor oil unless instructed by the fastener manufacturer to use something else.
     
  23. dgt

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    Peter has the same engine I do, series-1. The head stud holes in the block are clear through to the water galleries, I had to remove mine.
    I see Peter said he never took the studs out which probably means that side is sealed up.
    Back to the gasket...
     
  24. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Been a long time since I did one so I didn't remember that. They should be as good as when he took it apart. He is correct though. Retorque first.

    Peter, if they were lubed at assembly, slightly loosen one at a time in the proper assembly sequence and retorque it. If any were loose, do it a second time. You might consider running it long enough to get it fully up to temp first, then let it cool before the retorque.
     
  25. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
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    I second Rifledriver's experience with Elring head gaskets. The fire-ring does not compress enough to allow the rest of the gasket to seal between the head and block, causing coolant leaks. Cometic can make you some gaskets that will cure your problem.
     

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