California misfire at 4200 rpm on up

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by PRO SYSTEMS, Apr 30, 2017.

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  1. PRO SYSTEMS

    PRO SYSTEMS Rookie

    Mar 4, 2017
    20
    I have a misfire in my 15,000 mile 2010 California only at heavy throttle at 4200 rpm on up.

    The dealer (they seem sharp) says its an injector OR two that are clogged on one bank. BUT its a HARD misfire I am struggling to believe it and they don;t seem confident enough to sell it to me as "the fix" to my problem.

    Its a hard mis, like an ignition miss. The system reads lean when its happening (ignition misfires can also show a lean reading) and fuel pressure is rock solid.

    I am unfamiliar with Direct injection, but typically misfires from being lean wouldnt be so aggressive of a hit on the misfire (this feels like AND sounds like a rev limiter/ignition interrupter...but it allows the engine rpms to climb). Also it happens at EXACTLY 4200 rpm on up everytime when you are beyond 4200 rpm.

    If you run the engine below half throttle it will run real high on rpms without a miss.

    Only under heavy throttle do you get the violent miss.

    Ideas anyone?

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    5,768
    Sounds like one or two of the injectors are not spraying enough fuel.
    At part throttle, the engine needs less fuel, so the injector seems up to the task.

    As to the 4200 EXACTLY, if you could position your car on top of Pikes Peak and drive at full throttle, at those low pressures, the misfire should occur at higher RPMs.
     
  3. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #3 Rifledriver, Apr 30, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2017
    What does the memory say? The self diagnosis is extremely good at picking up a miss. It will pick up a miss that you cannot feel.

    If you have an injector problem there are other recorded engine parameters that will show supporting evidence.
     
  4. PRO SYSTEMS

    PRO SYSTEMS Rookie

    Mar 4, 2017
    20
    The only reason I don't think its an injector issue is:

    Anything above 1/2 throttle causes the issue to occur at exactly 4200 rpms on up.

    We know there is a difference in fuel volume delivered from 60 percent throttle to 100 percent throttle.

    So if its an injector partially plugged problem, RPM should be irrelevant. Fuel volume requested should be what will CHANGE the rpm that the miss occurs.

    At 60 percent throttle and 4000 rpms lets say I am asking for 250 h.p. in fuel. BUT at 100 percent throttle and 4000 rpms I may be asking for 300 h.p. in fuel volume.

    Neither throttle position will create a miss until the engine hits exactly 4200 rpms.


    Its always a HARD miss at exactly 4200 rpm (it doesnt sneak up and get bad...its instant like a rev limiter at exactly 4200 rpms) on up any time the throttle is above 1/2 way.

    NO change in throttle position (fuel demand) will raise or lower the 4200 RPM on up miss UNTIL you get set throttle position at below 50 percent on the throttle. Then the rpms will climb easily and without a miss.
     
  5. PRO SYSTEMS

    PRO SYSTEMS Rookie

    Mar 4, 2017
    20
    Codes set:

    P0302 Cylinder # 2 Misfire detected
    P0300 Random Multi cylinder misfire detected
    P1572 Immobilizer Malfunction Bank 2 (invalid Signal)
     
  6. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    Sep 18, 2002
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    It's the injectors. A have replaced many for the exact same reason you describe. The injectors are not sold individually you must by the entire rail with the 4 injectors. It's a very well known issue with the 2010 cars.
     
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  8. tazandjan

    tazandjan Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Get it diagnosed with a diagnostic tool designed to do exactly that on the California. If you do not have a diagnostic tool that works on late model Ferraris, take it to a reliable Ferrari shop that does. Whatever it is, diagnosing it on the internet is pretty much impossible.
     
  9. PRO SYSTEMS

    PRO SYSTEMS Rookie

    Mar 4, 2017
    20
    Hi Terry, I took it to the Dealer and have pages of inconclusive data. They just feel its "probably" the injectors. But at $8500.00 its my gamble if they are wrong.

    tbakowsky,

    1. Why didnt someone clean the injectors instead of replace?

    2. Are they carboned at the tip causing the failure (why not just clean them)?

    3. Is it an internal issue with the injector that is causing the failure (hence the reason for replacement)?

    Thanks in advance for your insight and time.
     
  10. Beetle

    Beetle Karting
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    Check to plugs. Shut the engine down straight after the misfire. read the plugs. Could this be done on a chassis dyno?
     
  11. mike32

    mike32 Formula 3

    May 13, 2016
    1,231
    Uk
    Have you tried some fuel injector cleaner in the petrol tank before you start tearing it to bits, my mondial used to cut out coming up to a t junction. Mine was not direct injection but its the same principle. Best to put this stuff into a low level tank. We have redex petrol injector cleaner, or winns etc.
    Its not going to do any harm so worth a go.
    If it was blocked you would be a cylinder down so it sounds like it is sticking
     
  12. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    Ah seafoam. Good old seafoam. .:)

    Have you called the recyclers and looked for a used injector to test? Not sure what parts equivalent is.
     
  13. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    If there is an injector problem it will show up in the fuel trim numbers.

    It is time for a second opinion. The guys you are using are either not up to the job or are being prevented from doing it.
     
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  15. PRO SYSTEMS

    PRO SYSTEMS Rookie

    Mar 4, 2017
    20
    So is the P0302 code denoting a misfire in cylinder #2 identifying the cylinder as being located in the Passenger side front location of the engine?
     
  16. AD170

    AD170 Rookie

    Jul 18, 2014
    32
    Just be aware the misfiring cylinder could be another. The ECM uses the Crankshaft Position Sensor to identify the misfiring culprit (looks for a slowdown) and sometimes its wrong on which cylinder. Scope the Secondary Waveforms to see if its firing in the cylinder rich or lean. Interested in the pages of data to justify an 8500$ fix. Since its at exactly 4200 rpm look hard at Variable Valve Timing. As mentioned above, its time to go somewhere else.
     
  17. PRO SYSTEMS

    PRO SYSTEMS Rookie

    Mar 4, 2017
    20
    AD170, we are on the same page... the fact it hits at EXACTLY 4200 rpm every time NEVER below 4200, points towards an computer controlled system of some sort. It seems a malfunctioning injector would not be rpm related but fuel volume related... it seems.
     
  18. mike32

    mike32 Formula 3

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    I take it seafoam is your version of injector cleaner ? Not heard of that one
     
  19. tazandjan

    tazandjan Two Time F1 World Champ
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    There have been problems with direct injection systems coking up the cylinder heads, but no way that would cause a persistent misfire at exactly the same rpm every time.
     
  20. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    I agree but having the injectors cleaned and tested is not a huge expense. I understand the dealer being reluctant to promote that but I would do it to cover the base.

    In general though this does not sound like a mixture issue.
     
  21. tazandjan

    tazandjan Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Brian- I agree. Had mine cleaned last time we changed cambelts. Not sure if it is any more involved on the direct injection Ferraris or not. Usually $20-30 per injector (plus labor and shipping) for the port injection, but not sure about direct.
     
  22. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2011
    1,858
    re injector cleaners... cleaners are preventative maintainance... they are effective at preventing clogs, once clogged, injector cleaners do not work ( think about it... for the cleaner to work there must be fuel flow, when clogged there is NO or limited fuel flow )... you can give the cleaners a try, just in case there may be enough flow to get some cleaning started, ultimately time to clean/rebuild the injector and be sure to replace fuel filter... a fouled injector is unable to atomize the fuel... failing injectors form large droplets of fuel, which are slow to burn completely... leading to other problems from poor running
     
  23. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2011
    1,858
    injectors are universal, think of injectors like a spark plug, which are universal and built to a specification... just get the correct specs ... each has a specific operating range... fuel flow and pressure... there are many diesel truck shops ( it's the spec not the fuel ) that are equipped rebuild them at reasonable cost... Ferrari buys their injectors from the major manufacturers...
     
  24. PRO SYSTEMS

    PRO SYSTEMS Rookie

    Mar 4, 2017
    20
    If it was a minor job to remove a Direct injector, we would just do it.

    BUT this looks like a complete engine removal is required to even get to them. Hence the $8500.00 price tag on this "gamble"

    Still haunted by the fact the rpm where the misfire occurs is so precise where it begins and so consistent as the rpms increase. It doesnt get better or worse, its the same everytime. Injector cleaners of every type have had zero effect on this... also if you run it at below half throttle its smooth as silk to 7000 rpms possibly higher.
     
  25. TimF40

    TimF40 Formula 3

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    Seriously? As in disassembling the top of the motor bits or actual "disconnect the engine from everything and hoist it partway out"?
     
  26. maxvonauto

    maxvonauto Karting

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    #24 maxvonauto, May 6, 2017
    Last edited: May 6, 2017
    I pulled the injectors and had them cleaned when I removed the carbon on my intake valves. I did the job in my garage without pulling the engine. Access is a bit difficult (on my 458) but suspect that a California would be significantly easier, maybe an eight hour job. I'd look at plugs and coils first, but could be a bad (electrically) injector as well, among other things.
     
  27. james62

    james62 Rookie

    Sep 21, 2006
    5
    #25 james62, May 7, 2017
    Last edited: May 7, 2017
    I am a mechanic not a Ferrari mechanic, if it was me and the coil packs are interchangeable I would move the offending cylinder coil and plug to another cylinder.
    If the miss fire code p0302 moves to another cylinder then its coil or plug.
    If it does not then it is most likely injector or air leak ect..

    Whats the story with the p1572 imobilizer bank 2 , p0302 is cyl 2 and thats on bank 2.
    What does that mean, is it imobilizing the engine because its getting an incorrect signal from fuel pressure sensor or cam sensor I would find out about that because the 4500 rpm cyl cut maybe a safety feature in the software so you dont over rev if it is seeing an issue.
    Maybe it is seeing an issue with a lean mixture and the safety p1572 is what you are feeling as a driver???.
    Like I say not a Ferrari guy but every manufacturer has its way.
    If the codes are cleared does the issue go away, then after a drive cycle the issue is back because that maybe a clue to p1572 being a safety feature in the software.

    If the inj were an easy removal ,from reading it is not , and you could put it into another cylinder and again see if the code moves to that cylinder then that would prove a point.
    If you have to buy a rail and all inj I am thinking maybe they can not be removed of the rail for safety reasons.

    I use a tool called chassis ears at work, if you had one mic on a good inj and one on the offending inj in cylinder 2 you may hear a difference in the 2 when it plays up.
    Just a thought.

    Jim
     
  28. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Cyl 2 is not on bank 2.

    An immobilizer performs none of those functions.
     
  29. james62

    james62 Rookie

    Sep 21, 2006
    5
    Ok. on bank 2

    Immobilizers will generally kill fuel or ign via the ecu generally through BCM.
    If its on the other bank sounds unrelated.

    Jim
     
  30. spicedriver

    spicedriver Formula Junior

    Feb 1, 2011
    564
    That front mid-engine looks significantly harder.
     
  31. Andy 355

    Andy 355 Formula Junior

    Interested in how ignition misfires show a lean condition. This is not true. If you have a ignition misfire you have unburnt fuel in the exhaust. If you have a misfire and lean then its running out of fuel. I have seen this personally on Citro├źn/peugeot diag with faulty injectors.
     
  32. Andy 355

    Andy 355 Formula Junior

    Also be aware of the fact that once the ecu detects a misfire it most likely will turn off the injector. Late model benzes do that. That might be why your thinking its lean. Welcome to the new world of diagnostics. Back to basics. 1st up, smoke test the inlet manifold. Good luck too because that ain't easy either.
     
  33. Andy 355

    Andy 355 Formula Junior

    Egt will pinpoint the misfiring cylinders in any case. After a certain misfire count the ecu will shut down that cyls injector. Just so you are not pumping fuel into the exhaust system.
     
  34. PRO SYSTEMS

    PRO SYSTEMS Rookie

    Mar 4, 2017
    20
    UPDATE: I replaced the #2 coil. NO effect.

    BUT found out that while the engine is still in closed loop (under 150 degrees on the temp gauge), it runs fine at wide open throttle all the way to redline.

    The warmer it gets, the problem returns gradually... with small misfires and then when fully warmed...hits right at 4200 rpm like clock work at anything over 1/2 throttle.

    Also, you can tell its not an injector thats being shut down as its an rpm limiting HARD misfire. Its aggressive. It sounds like a traction control system that uses a rev limiter to control
    excessive tire speed (I own a racing parts manufacturing company and I race cars that use these types of systems so thats the only way know to explain it) An injector shut down would simply be loss of power, unless I guess they slam the bank off and on. Its a hard misfire.
     
  35. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Rookie
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    All of the above is incorrect.

    Yes if it misfires, it will show lean at WOT.

    Narrowband o2 at WOT will be 900+mv and spike lean every time there is a misfire.

    Graphing this is a good indicator of which bank is misfiring.

    Yes, there is unburned fuel but the o2 sensor is measuring oxygen and there is a hell of a lot more unburned oxygen than fuel when this occurs. Wot richer than stoich, still 12-1 or 11-1 air fuel ratio means 11 or 12 times more oxygen than fuel when not ignited, showing lean. The unburned fuel isn't even measured.





    One question I have is, it was said that fuel pressure is good. Are we talking the in tank pump supplying the high pressure mechanical pump or the high pressure side, rail pressure?

    If the high pressure side falls off with rpm injector pulsewidth increases to try and compensate for the pressure drop. If it drops too much you can end up eith EOI (end of injection) point overlapping spark ignition, resulting in a misfire.

    This would usually be accompanied by a fuel pump/pressure type code but I've seen cases where pressure drops enough for a higher rpm/wot misfire and no codes set.
     
  36. PRO SYSTEMS

    PRO SYSTEMS Rookie

    Mar 4, 2017
    20
    Yes, thats correct, misfires will read lean when the ignition is cutoff.

    The fuel pressure at the rail is rock solid under a load. I had them go right to the rail and get data, so its not a fuel issue as delivered to the injector.

    I wonder if the system can actually sense a cylinder (or bank) being lean (as the system is aware of that bank being lean...but we don't know if its lean from the mixture OR lean from the ignition misfire).

    But if it can sense the bank being lean from too little fuel, is it setup so it will cut off the igntion in a random pattern (like a rev limiter cycles every other cylinder) in order to protect the engine from damage. Because thats what it feels and sounds like...a controlled and precise sounding and cycling rev limiter. It will still allow rpms to climb but its really trying to hold them down.
     
  37. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Rookie
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    #35 INTMD8, May 7, 2017
    Last edited: May 7, 2017
    Does it have narrowband or wideband o2's? If it doesn't have wideband with closed loop fuel control at WOT it wouldn't be able to cut off ignition due to a lean condition as of course it wouldn't know.

    If the system would ever do that at all. Closed loop at WOT, first thing it would do is trim in as much fuel as possible. (if this system is capable of that)

    If it was the ecu limiting, you should be able to scan the source of torque managment/limiter.
     
  38. PRO SYSTEMS

    PRO SYSTEMS Rookie

    Mar 4, 2017
    20
    It wide band. Very accurate wideband as well.

    Its definitely aware of torque It will display the torque values.

    The system is not performing a FUEL CUTOFF function.

    It has a P1572 code IDed as an Immobilizer Malfunction on Bank 2 (Invalid Signal)

    Greater than 4ms on Fuel injection when problem occurs.
     
  39. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Rookie
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    I would start with eliminating the easiest and cheapest first. Change plugs and if no good see if it follows the coil.

    As mentioned, if it has closed loop fuel control at wot you would see positive fuel trims if it was trying to correct a lean condition
     
  40. PRO SYSTEMS

    PRO SYSTEMS Rookie

    Mar 4, 2017
    20
    Interesting test I just performed that did not follow what it did yesterday. Yesterday when the engine was colder...it had no issues running right up to redline. So today I did very little warm up and took it out and it had that misfire starting at 3600 rpms. SO NOW we know its probably fuel delivery based.

    More than likely the dealer is correct, it is an injector spray issue and cleaning or replacing will fix it, I just wish they had more confidence when they were selling it to me. This is an engine out procedure to get to these injectors and if they are wrong... I am on the only one that loses.
     
  41. spicedriver

    spicedriver Formula Junior

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    I had a newer Chevy V8 that developed a misfire after warm-up. It turned out to be a sticking exhaust valve. An easy test for this is to hold an envelope close the the exhaust pipes. The exhaust should always push the envelope away. If it sucks the envelope back to the pipe, the valve is sticking open.
     
  42. Andy 355

    Andy 355 Formula Junior

    The engine is in open loop when cold.
     
  43. Andy 355

    Andy 355 Formula Junior

    Should the injector be injecting the correct quantity of fuel and the offending cylinder/cylinders drawing the correct amount of air than the "cylinder/cylinders" will be seeing the correct air/fuel ratio.

    Now, if you have an ignition misfire the wideband will be seeing an untrue lean mixture since the engine is essentially pumping air and unburnt fuel into the exhaust.

    Would you consider running on a dyno and measuring hydrocarbons as well first? This might help to isolate ignition misfire problems, before heading down the costly and time consuming injector path.
     
  44. PRO SYSTEMS

    PRO SYSTEMS Rookie

    Mar 4, 2017
    20
    SO I ran the rpms up higher past 4200 to 6000 rpms. Now if it was a lean issue on my race cars (I do a lot of dyno testing etc...) from lack of fuel, the misfire should get progressively worse and many times turn into an intake manifold backfire as rpms increase... but instead, it stays exactly the same and is an amazingly consistent and controlled misfire or ignition interrupt.

    Question 1: Does the Ferrari engine management have the ability to interrupt ignition to protect the engine from damage in a lean situation OR is it a bad coil or ???

    It sounds the same out the exhaust no matter the rpm or throttle position. A steady rhythm. It just sounds so ignition based.

    Question 2: Cylinder # 2 (identified as a P0302 code), where is it located?

    Is it the passenger side front?
     
  45. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Rookie
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    Now you got it :)
     
  46. PRO SYSTEMS

    PRO SYSTEMS Rookie

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    So it doesnt get lost in the shuffle, IF ANYONE KNOWS these answers it will really help get the situation pointed in the right direction.

    Question 1: Does the Ferrari engine management have the ability to interrupt ignition to protect the engine from damage in a lean situation.

    If not it could be a bad coil or ??? as it sounds the same out the exhaust no matter the rpm or throttle position. A steady rhythm. It just sounds so ignition based.

    Question 2: Cylinder # 2 (identified as a P0302 code), where is it located?

    Is it the passenger side front?
     
  47. GTHill

    GTHill F1 Veteran
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    How close are you to Texas?

    GT
     
  48. Fezza12cyl

    Fezza12cyl Rookie

    May 8, 2017
    1
    Hi there.

    Question one: Sorry I don't know how Ferrari has programmed the Ecu to respond to certain situations, however, you can use an oscilloscope to test the ignition outputs to prove if the signal is changing Above 4200rpm and 50% throttle.

    Question two: it may be possible to remove the wiring to the coil you suspect is number two, turn the ignition on and have a code for that cylinder being open circuit. Confirm that code identifies cyl number 2.

    I hope there is some help here.
     
  49. maxvonauto

    maxvonauto Karting

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    Any shop with a Ferrari diagnostic tool or good aftermarket software (like AutoEnginuity) should be able to find the problem if they know how to use them and properly interpret the results. Otherwise, you'll be just guessing.

    If the dealer says it's an engine out procedure check the factory manual (available online) to see if there's another procedure. Ive found many procedures in the 458 manual that most dealers conveniently don't even know exist!
     
  50. maxvonauto

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    Note: the spark plugs on the 458 and California are special "ion sensing" plugs. They work in conjunction with the anti-detonation ECU to sense detonation and alter timing accordingly. I can't see how the system could pull enough timing to create such a hard misfire on one cylinder but possibly.
    That's why you need somone to data log all the pertinent parameters in real time during the miss fire to home in on the real issue.
     
  51. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
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    The California T and 458 have Eldor Ion ignition systems, which senses detonation through the spark plug. The older non-turbo California does not have this system. It has Bosch motronic with regular knock sensors bolted to the engine block..
     
  52. 360+Volt=Prius

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    #50 360+Volt=Prius, May 10, 2017
    Last edited: May 10, 2017
    .
     

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