car design thread

Discussion in 'Creative Arts' started by jm2, Oct 19, 2012.

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  1. jm2

    jm2 F1 Veteran
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    #1 jm2, Oct 19, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2012
  2. photonut

    photonut F1 Rookie
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    john:
    this is cool.
    but it pales in comparison to cadillac's design!:D
     
  3. jm2

    jm2 F1 Veteran
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    they definitely have their work cut out for them
    but i give them credit for going "all in" to reestablish the brand after all this time
    we'll see if they can pull it off

    a year ago,my class did a Lincoln sponsored project........most of the foreign students had no clue about Lincoln cars or the brand
    it was a struggle for some :)
     
  4. tritone

    tritone F1 Rookie
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    Great idea, to keep some designers employed for a couple more years.....

    IMHO, Mullaly's first big mistake. This will not end well. Should have kept the focus on the rest of the brand [FORD] and written this off. Lincolns buyers have died for chrissake!
    The current package has absolutely nothing going for it. (I did a test drive at an event; BORING.) Were I a shareholder, I would be emailing the Investor Relations. Sad.

    Anyone else think this will be a success?
     
  5. jm2

    jm2 F1 Veteran
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    As I said,if they're serious,and i believe they are,it will take at least 10 yrs to make something like this happen.Maybe Mullaly's successor will decide to pull the plug.Who knows.

    Will they pull it off..........I wouldn't bet my money that they will.Way too much competition,total lack of any brand recognition & awareness.Mediocre products,etc.

    But anything is possible with the right products.Audi certainly came back from the dead after the infamous "unintended acceleration" fiasco in the '80's.This will take a long time playing out,IMO.
     
  6. JeremyJon

    JeremyJon F1 Veteran

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    #6 JeremyJon, Oct 23, 2012
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    looks good in blue too! :)
    643967_289397717843094_262854417_n.jpg
     
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  8. jm2

    jm2 F1 Veteran
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    absolutely georgeous car
    breaks most of the "traditional" accepted surfacing tenet's
    I do prefer it in it's original red however :)
     
  9. tritone

    tritone F1 Rookie
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    Agree with that; though I would argue that Audi had/has a much stronger focus on engineering, which drives their overall product design, and which Lincoln appears to lack (rebadged something or other..). I'm sure Ford could do the same if there was good reason.
     
  10. JeremyJon

    JeremyJon F1 Veteran

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    #9 JeremyJon, Oct 25, 2012
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    it seems lincoln has tried several times over the last 10 years (or so), but not a 100% effort IMO ...they can't re-establish a brand on a single model, and they won't if they dont follow-through

    the audi comparison is a bit like the bmw-caddy example in the other thread IMO

    i think lincoln has a great style they could draw from, different from current caddies, but we'll see?


    as for the effort, and need for more "style" i say "bravo" ;) :D ha,ha
    270473_4294207686851_227139770_n.jpg
     
  11. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Rookie
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    My take is that FoMoCo has horrible tendencies to introduce a model then let in languish until they get around to replacing it. Effectively no effort to develop it through the cycle which then means that it is seriously irrelevant by the time its replacement comes to market.

    FoMoCo has a history of believing that trim and end caps are enough to differentiate their cars. There really is nothing particularly wrong about good use of the parts bin but they need to be differentiated. Then with the Lincoln they really need to make sure that it is not just a trimmed up Ford for the price spread.

    FoMoCo may think they are committed but the proof will be the product funding and if anyone with the power to make approvals will take risks or make all the easy compromises.

    Does Ford even have someone with a Lutz like appreciation of product and conviction? Lutz left Ford once because the answer was they did not want anyone of that sort.

    What is the take on Mark Fields? Does he have conviction for product? It matters since he is the odds on favorite to succeed Mulally.

    Jeff
     
  12. jm2

    jm2 F1 Veteran
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    all good points Jeff
    Mr. Fields is indeed the heir apparent,but i'm not really sure about his product savvy
    Ford does have some people in high positions that are real product guys/gals
    next gen Mustang is supposed to be a real departure for them design wise & mechanically

    the big question as we've said is are they truly committed? that kind of consistent,unwavering focus on the product for 10-15 years is the only true answer
    will they have that?
    we'll watch as it plays out
    Acura hasn't given up......but I think they're DOA for the most part
    that segment of the market is brutal with the Germans & Lexus in control
    stay tuned
     
  13. jm2

    jm2 F1 Veteran
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    the car looks good too :D
     
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  15. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Rookie
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    Consistent with pushing forward. Have one really good winner and trying to recycle it because the people in charge didn't understand why it "worked" the first time is a recipe for demise.

    Lots of stories from multiple sources that throughout Henry II all that mattered was counting the beans and no product leadership was the entire game plan. Every once in a while they got lucky in spite of themselves. The second axiom of Ford was that one's political closeness to a Ford family member was way more important than anything else. Ford was known that their internal political battles were a blood sport. Don't know if Mulally's tenure has managed to stop all of that or not.

    The press report of the new Lincoln Design Center is typical PR crap. The 4 walls of the building never has or will create anything. It is the talent inside and leadership provided. Great work can come out a lousy building and the greatest Taj Mahal will not compensate for mediocrity.

    Jeff
     
  16. jm2

    jm2 F1 Veteran
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    +1 on the talent thought
    My line has always been,you don't need to be in California or insert your creative nirvana here,to be creative.You can be just as creative in Toledo as anywhere else.My contacts in Wolfsburg Germany say it ain't exactly heaven living there,but they are managing to put out some good stuff.

    But yes,it's always about leadership.
    Simple,but not easy to do.

    I was at Ford at the beginning of my career during the HF2 & Iacocca years,and yes it was quite the political jungle,even at the Design Center.
     
  17. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Rookie
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    Communicate with Ex Jr. and he could have gone to GM or Ford and went to Ford. Seemed to be disgusted how Design functioned with the politics and the worst of design by committee creating camels. Too bad his father really got corporately screwed. May have sometimes marched to a different drummer but was intent to lead his own way forward.

    Jeff
     
  18. jm2

    jm2 F1 Veteran
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    The thing that struck me most at the time,was how they would park a GM product in the studio near the clay Fords/Lincolns/Mercurys in the rails.All the talent they had & that was the best they could do?
     
  19. Jeff Kennedy

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    Seemingly it comes down to from the top of FoMoCo it was less risky to copy GM and be a follower than it was to try to find their own way. Rooms full of talent that were used to make the best alternative iteration of a GM design. Teter said one time that the basic cross section was handed to design at the start of the program.

    Of course what should one expect from those times. A Mercury was nothing but a Ford model with somewhat different caps and different chrome moldings. Terter said the corporate mentality is that the public would never see that there was no sheetmetal difference; "they" would perceive it being a really different design. Ford had unmitigated "sameness" way before Ribycki and his keepers forced that path upon GM.

    Of course when Iacocca joined Sperlich at ChryCo he did the same there with even fewer changes.

    Jeff
     
  20. jm2

    jm2 F1 Veteran
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    thank goodness they're still using clay for the design process:


    Design ยป Lincoln
    Clay helps bring Lincoln models to life
    Tried-and-true tool has a place in brand's new design studio


    Bradford Wernle
    Automotive News -- October 29, 2012 - 12:01 am ET

    DETROIT -- When Ford Motor Co. created the 1964 Mustang, designers used 60 clay models in the process of perfecting the first generation of the now iconic pony car.

    Five decades later, designers needed just four clay models to create the production version of the 2013 Lincoln MKZ, according to Al Biggs, a design modeling manager at a new design studio dedicated to the Lincoln brand in Dearborn, Mich.

    That was four more than some in the industry might have expected. There was a time in the not-too-distant past when automotive designers such as Biggs believed the clay model was bound for extinction, made obsolete by computer-aided design tools.

    "We thought digital was going to replace clay" completely, Biggs said during an open house for the new Lincoln studio in Ford's sprawling product development complex. "Then we realized that digital was part of the toolbox," but not all of it. "A lot of areas are difficult to interpret digitally."

    Areas such as the angle where the A-pillar, the car's fender and the front of the door come together are difficult to visualize on a computer screen, no matter how good the digital image, Biggs said. Those three-dimensional elements look even more realistic after modelers apply Di-Noc, a sheer carbon fiber film that fits over the clay as tightly as skin.

    Biggs, a 35-year studio veteran, can remember when designers used as much as 10,000 pounds of clay to sculpt a single model. Today, a lot less clay is required.

    Designers start with computer-generated or manual drawings of a car. They build from there applying the clay to an armature, a wooden or steel structure underneath. Then a computerized milling machine sculpts the surface, and modelers work the fine details using hand tools.


    Lincoln now has 150 designers and design support staffers working at the new studio. Outsiders rarely get a glimpse behind the doors of automakers' design studios, where future products take shape in closely guarded secrecy.

    Lincoln took the unusual step of opening the studio to journalists as part of a campaign to show that Ford is committed to the struggling brand. But the open house coincided with the reassignment of C.J. O'Donnell, Lincoln's marketing chief.

    Lincoln has its own engineers and marketers. But for design, "this is the first dedicated space for Lincoln since the '70s," said Raj Nair, Ford product development chief.

    Lincoln executives are keen to convince the world that future Lincoln vehicles will not be upscale versions of Fords, a criticism that has often been leveled at Lincoln in the past.

    J Mays, Ford Motor Co.'s global design chief, said the staffers will be dedicated solely to Lincoln and will not work on Ford-brand vehicles.

    "We learned our lesson long ago. If you can't get somebody's head around a brand on a daily basis," elements of sibling brands will start to creep into the designs, he said.

    During a tour of the studio, Lincoln designers showed one of the clay models used in the development of the 2013 MKZ along with a fiberglass mockup used to simulate paint and surfaces. That MKZ, due to go on sale in November, is the first of a generation of Lincolns designed to lure a new, younger generation of customers. A compact crossover, possibly called the MKC, is due for the 2014 model year along with a redesigned MKS sedan.

    Lincoln has promised it will introduce four all-new or revamped vehicles in the next four years.

    Mark Fields, Ford's president of the Americas and the man many believe will eventually succeed Alan Mulally as Ford CEO, dropped by the studio open house.

    Fields said Ford executives know Lincoln must be distinct and upscale, which is why the brand needs its own design studio.

    "We really understand that a luxury brand is essential for us to be a global and successful enterprise," Fields said. "There's not a single full-line successful global line maker that does not have a successful, vibrant and relevant luxury brand."



    Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20121029/OEM03/310299985#ixzz2AjNUENUx
     
  21. jm2

    jm2 F1 Veteran
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  22. nthfinity

    nthfinity F1 Veteran

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    Not mentioning by name, but that is is a reference to somebody who is family. He tells the story a little bit longer than a sentence. Nobody really had thought about what it took to make a car from design to production. George mapped it out quite exquisitely and intensely. I'd bet some of the resistance was that he was from the Science labs; not directly involved with building the cars.
     
  23. photonut

    photonut F1 Rookie
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    great interview, john.
    bill mitchell was a design legend.
     
  24. jm2

    jm2 F1 Veteran
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    yes he was
    talk about a wild & crazy guy to work for..............:D
     
  25. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Rookie
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    How much more was there to your interview? The intro says that it was edited and paraphrased.

    He did not stay long at GM yet seemingly someone who was selected to work on special Mitchell projects must have some liklihood for longevity.

    Jeff
     
  26. jm2

    jm2 F1 Veteran
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    it is in 2 or 3 parts I believe
    the interview lasted @ 1 hr at the Heritage Center
    yes,Roy's career was indeed short,but he was talented & lucky enough to have worked on some pretty cool projects & with the best of the best
     
  27. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Rookie
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    By whose choice? There was a tendency for moving up or getting moved out. There were also cases of getting crosswise with certain people and getting out on your own was the right action.

    Jeff
     
  28. jm2

    jm2 F1 Veteran
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    #26 jm2, Nov 1, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2012
    i believe the answer to that is in the next part of the interview
    i specifically asked him why he left,and he did leave of his own choosing
    there was,as you can probably imagine tremendous pressure for a 20 something to produce
    but IIRC,he did answer my specific question as to why he left after such a brief tenure
    you can just imagine all those whose photos are posted with the interview,Mitchell,Jordan,Rybicki,Holls,Haga,Shinoda,etc.....just how tension filled that whole experience must have been.....not an atmosphere for shrinking violets,or shy types
     
  29. Jeff Kennedy

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    Back as we were even still in school if one scratched the surface enough there were stories of, especially with GM, "burn and churn" the talent. Some from GM that got churned would end up at Ford and Chrysler since, at the time, the truly gifted were a lot more likely to go to GM. Some just wanted out of the Detroit winters bad enough to leave automotive.

    Jeff
     
  30. jm2

    jm2 F1 Veteran
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    yes,my brief foray at Ford saw many ex GM guys that didn't want the pressure or the BS
    either you thrived/survived in that atmosphere,or you left....not too many other options
    the interesting thing was that it was a one way street.....once you worked at Ford or Chrysler,no chance of moving to GM,with very few exceptions :D
    Mitchell had a very hard line about that
     
  31. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Rookie
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    It was interesting back then. Made jokes about the reflecting pool at the Tech Center was so that GM could determine if candidates could walk on water.

    Remember at the time that GM had a very different attitude about their student hiring. They were viewed to be much more selective for talent - ability to design versus being able to render underlying crap. GM had one salary offer whereas Ford and Chrysler would negotiate and make promises. GM's ultimate take was that if a person was willing to be at the best and do well then they were going to be well rewarded. If initial money was what was important then that person just wasn't going to be right for GM anyway.

    Yes it was an arrogant approach but when they were clearly the best they could be.

    Jeff
     
  32. jm2

    jm2 F1 Veteran
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    that made me laugh
    first interview I had there the recruiter asked me to stand up and look out on the lake......so naturally I did :)


    he then said..."unless you can walk on that lake,you won't be getting a job here!!!"....."now let's look at your portfolio!"
    :D
     
  33. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Rookie
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    Ever hear the story on what Mott and Cumberford did with the Ford logo? Heard that at least one of them was really concerned for his safety afterwards. Mentioned it to chuck at what had to have been more than 10 years after it had occurred (me thinking that it was a great prank) and he still was taking the incident poorly.

    Jeff
     
  34. jm2

    jm2 F1 Veteran
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    it was my understanding that a group of Summer interns had submerged the Ford logo in the lake
    never heard it was Cumberford/Mott
     
  35. JeremyJon

    JeremyJon F1 Veteran

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    #33 JeremyJon, Nov 3, 2012
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    great old pic of the Porsche design studio (not to be confused with Porsche Design) :)
    527351_506988172647500_710663444_n.jpg
     
  36. jm2

    jm2 F1 Veteran
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    talk about crowded
    how did they ever get back far enough to evaluate anything?
    but i guess the results speak for themselves! :)
     
  37. jm2

    jm2 F1 Veteran
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    #35 jm2, Nov 3, 2012
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    this is how it's done today......
    Renault_Clio_12_500.jpg
     
  38. ScuderiaWithStickPlease

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    A lot of long shadows in that room. Isn't it better to have full control of the lighting, something I would think necessitates keeping windows either at a minimum or covered?
     
  39. jm2

    jm2 F1 Veteran
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    #37 jm2, Nov 3, 2012
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    yes I wouls agree
    that is a Renault studio,and I definitely would have expected more overhead lighting,more like the Lincoln Studio
    lstudio-1_653.jpg
     
  40. JeremyJon

    JeremyJon F1 Veteran

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    #38 JeremyJon, Nov 4, 2012
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    :)
    534641_461047370605316_1834822912_n.jpg
     
  41. ScuderiaWithStickPlease

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    I'll bet the lighting in that space is why the Juke looks the way it does . . . anyone know what time of year that thing was signed off?

    LoL!

    (If anyone here has Renault-Nissan connections, please do what you can to get the Meganne 265 Cup to the States. It's an outrage that we don't have that car.)
     
  42. jm2

    jm2 F1 Veteran
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    one of the student Lincolns from last year
    he just got a job at GM Design :)
     
  43. jm2

    jm2 F1 Veteran
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    i figured the Juke came from Nissan Design in Japan,but I'm not positive

    crimes against the automobile,IMHO
     
  44. jm2

    jm2 F1 Veteran
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    here is part 2 of the GM Design/Corvette interview with RoyLonberger:
    http://deansgarage.com/2012/an-interview-with-roy-lonberger-part-2/
    some really great photos of Roy's work with some fantastic sketches/renderings
     
  45. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 Veteran
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    Perhaps most impressive is the amount of detailed information that Roy Lonberger can recall and shared in that great interview! Needless to say the images included are the 'icing on the cake' from his GM design experiences.

    One name that I found interesting was Mauri Rose who drove the Monza GT car at Elkhart Lakes in 1962. Five years later he would drive the new 1967 Camaro Pace Car at the Indianapolis 500. The Camaro Pace Car was white with a blue interior and Chevrolet gave Mauri Rose a special 1967 Corvette. They reversed the Camaro colors by painting the Corvette Marina Blue with white for the interior color. Even the 435HP motor had 'engine conditioning' when it was built and the car was loaded with options like aluminum 'bolt-on' wheels and side mount exhaust. After a couple of decades he had driven the 1967 Corvette less than 5,000 miles.
    Some consider 1967 the ultimate Corvette model year. It seems we have James M Roche to thank for effectively extending the mid-year Corvette design into 1967 when he rejected the Mako Shark design that Bill Mitchell presented for the 1967 Corvette model year introduction.
    CH
     
  46. jm2

    jm2 F1 Veteran
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    Some great info in that piece.
    I'm just so glad he saved all that cool artwork!
    So much was thrown out over the years.
     
  47. JeremyJon

    JeremyJon F1 Veteran

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  48. JeremyJon

    JeremyJon F1 Veteran

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    #46 JeremyJon, Nov 6, 2012
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  49. jm2

    jm2 F1 Veteran
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    the good thing about that car is it has character & presence.I like the new Mazda design language better than some of their more recent stuff.
    the digital presentations get better & better each time
     
  50. jm2

    jm2 F1 Veteran
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    #48 jm2, Nov 8, 2012
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    now the real fun begins
    5 weeks left in the semester
    lot's o deezinen to do......
    in another couple of days,it will look like a crime scene in there :D
    IMG_1531.jpg
    IMG_1530.jpg
     
  51. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Rookie
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    Where are all the coffee cups and other caffine vessels? Look too neat and orderly.

    Top photo center left clay and display area - he appears to be the organized one. Much, much further along on his clay than the others and his display area appears to already be together.

    So what is the project brief and who is the sponsor?

    Jeff
     
  52. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Rookie
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    Autoweek did an article on the recent Concours where Bob Lutz was honorary judge and the Cadillac 16 was featured.

    John, was that created in your studio? The article makes it sound like Lutz really wanted to see it go to production. Was it designed for production or strickly as a show vehicle? What is the rest of the story?

    Jeff
     

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