CIS Set-Up | FerrariChat

CIS Set-Up

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by wda24729, Aug 27, 2017.

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  1. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2014
    1,000
    Devon, UK
    Full Name:
    Graham
    Good morning - Just rebuilt my CIS KE Units and initial set-up is to adjust mixture screws until you see fuel in one chamber and then back-off half a turn

    Ive primed the fuel pumps and set the screws to minimum lean (anti-clockwise) but as I turn the screw, no fuel seems to appear. However if I turn the ignition back on fuel appears in the chamber immediately, left one slightly overpsills and the right one sits flush with the top of the chamber.


    Any help greatly appreciated.
     
  2. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,038
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #2 Steve Magnusson, Aug 27, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2017
    What do you mean by "primed"? This is the K-Jet procedure (but the fuel pump should be running). The KE FD initial set-up procedure is about confirming the rest position C of the airflow metering plate (fuel pump not running + no airflow) relative to the approx theoretical nominal operating idle position A (fuel pump running + 1000 RPM airflow), then running the fuel pump and confirming/setting position B (fuel pump running + no airflow) of the airflow metering plate relative to positions A and C - it's shown on pages 26 and 27 of the KE-Jetronic Standard Version Booklet. If you don't have a copy give a shout, and I'll try to get it up on Dropbox.

    The strategy is:

    No airflow (with fuel pump running) = airflow metering plate is in rest position C, Plunger is not deflected with a little clearance between the air flow metering plate mechanism and the Plunger (this ensures the fuel delivery slits are fully closed).

    As air is initially drawn into the engine (or by gently pushing down on the airflow disk), the airflow metering plate mechanism moves until it just touches the plunger = position B.

    As more air is drawn into the engine for 1000 RPM idle, the airflow metering plate mechanism moves from B to A which deflects the Plunger enough to add just the right amount of fuel for 1000 RPM operation (with the airflow metering plate about in position A).
     
  3. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2014
    1,000
    Devon, UK
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    Graham
    Hi Steve,

    Many thanks. Your PM box is full at present
     
  4. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,038
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Steve Magnusson
    I don't do PMs anymore ;) -- please post here to contact me.
     
  5. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2014
    1,000
    Devon, UK
    Full Name:
    Graham
    Fair point! Do I post up my email address or do you provide a link to the Dropbox?
     
  6. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,038
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    I'll post a Dropbox link if you want it, but I just checked, and I've never scanned the whole thing so will just do pages 26 and 27) - do you want them?
     
  7. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2014
    1,000
    Devon, UK
    Full Name:
    Graham
    Yes please, much appreciated :)
     
  8. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,038
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
  9. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2014
    1,000
    Devon, UK
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    Graham
    Thanks Steve, I'm off out for the evening now but will post up results tomorrow.

    Just one thing, when you say pumps running, you mean ignition on? Its just that my pumps fire up on ignition and then go quiet if not cranking. Assume desired pressure is reached?
     
  10. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,038
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Sort of - "pumps running" = with the fuel supply system at the regulated supply pressure (5.0~5.6 bar IIRC), but your fuel pumps should not be running with just the key "on". The stock system only closes the fuel pump relays; if:

    1. the starter motor is cranking (the start command signal going to the starter solenoid is also sent to the tachometric relay to close it), or

    2. the key is "on" AND the 7-12 coil primary is firing - this signal is also sent to the tachometric relay which also closes it.

    If your fuel pumps run with just the key "on" = you must have some modification(s), but for the purpose of locating position B, just do whatever you have to to get the fuel pumps actually running.
     
  11. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2014
    1,000
    Devon, UK
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    Graham
    All set up I think!

    Ive got 2.5mm from C to B at rest where I can just feel contact with the plunger if I push down by hand. I can also see the plates being pulled down to Position B when cranking

    However its not starting! I think its throwing too much fuel in as I took a plug out which was very damp :(
     
  12. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2014
    1,000
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    Graham
    I think I have an over-fuelling problem! Does anyone know if the fuel pipes are supposed to slightly drip fuel when under pressure after disconnecting from an injector?
     
  13. carguy

    carguy F1 Rookie

    Oct 30, 2002
    3,402
    Alabama (was Mich.)
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    Jeff
    The question is confusing - are you asking if a disconnected fuel line - while under pressure - that is disconnected - should drip fuel? Of course the answer would be yes....

    I'm sure I am misunderstanding what you are asking, could you rephrase please....
     
  14. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2014
    1,000
    Devon, UK
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    Graham
    Sorry, yes you have read it correctly, fuel pressure up, disconnected at injector and it drips slightly. Just wanted to make sure.

    Ive stripped one of the metering heads again and I can't see any set-up issues. Ive done a few of these before, although they were K-Jet, not KE.

    Ive also put all new injectors in, looked at one under cranking and all seems fine. Spark is also there.
     
  15. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2014
    1,000
    Devon, UK
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    Graham
    Im struggling with this! Ive carried out the following:

    Fuel pumps running, metering flow plates set at 2.3mm from C to B.
    Voltage to red wire on Water Thermo switch (pumps running) = 12v
    Resistance on Thermo Time Switch at water temp approx. 17 degrees = 6100 (a little high maybe?)


    Is there anything else I can try? Still too much fuel going through, now dripping out the cats!

    The only thing I did different (except install new injectors) was swap the metering heads around, but I don't think that would make any difference
     
  16. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2014
    1,000
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    Graham
    Im struggling with this! Ive carried out the following checks:

    1) Metering plates set to 2.3mm from Position C to B with fuel pump running
    2) Voltage to red wire on Water Thermoswitch (pumps running) = 12v
    3) Ohms from Thermo time switch to ECU connector = 6100 at 17 degrees (a little high maybe?)

    The only thing Ive done different (except change the injectors) is swap the metering heads over but I cant see this being an issue

    Its still over fuelling. If I leave it some time, I get a very quick fire-up on initial key start, and then nothing.

    Are there any other checks I can do?
     
  17. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,038
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Steve Magnusson
    And is position B in the right place relative to position A?
     
  18. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2014
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    Graham
    Hi Steve,

    Glad you asked that. Im not sure how I can set Position A if the engine isn't running. Its a theoretical position...isn't it??
     
  19. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,038
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Steve Magnusson
    Correct -- it's just a theoretical location (not something you set), but you should be able to see the edge in the "funnel" where the short cylindrical portion ends and starts opening up. As shown in Fig 18, position B needs to be 2~2.3mm above that transition point in the the funnel shape.
     
  20. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2014
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    Graham
    #20 wda24729, Aug 30, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2017
    You mean when cranking or setting it at rest? I can only really guess where position C is based on eyeing it in when I see the gap.

    Also, I just want to make sure Im testing the coolant thermistor correctly. Do I leave the connector on top of the thermistor connected and just test across 2 and 21 on the ECU's?
     
  21. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,038
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Steve Magnusson
    #21 Steve Magnusson, Aug 30, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2017
    No, just run the fuel pumps and then gently push the airflow plate down to position B (maybe measure the distance from the metal bar running across the top down to the top of the bolt head holding the airflow plate). Then turn the fuel pumps off, and crack a joint open like at the cold start injector to relieve the fuel pressure (use a rag to catch the fuel squirting out) and push the airflow plate down to position A and make the same measurement -- note the difference in the two measurements.

    You wrote "position C" , but I think you mean position A. Yes, position A would be when you can just see the gap start to open up

    Yes -- connected at the thermister end, but disconnected at the ECU end. Measure between pins 2 and 21 in the unplugged ECU harness connector end.
     
  22. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2014
    1,000
    Devon, UK
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    Graham
    Tried to reply with quotes to no avail!

    I will go in reverse here as I think I might have a problem with the thermistor. I get no readings across either of the ECU connections. If I disconnect the thermistor and test across the terminals, that's where I get the 6100. My meter setting is at 1k.

    With regards the plate settings, this is interesting as I end up with about 6mm A-C, however I will keep tinkering as I guess the most important measurement is A-B. I'll also measure from top strap as you suggest rather than back edge (I thought the back edge maybe travels further than the front)

    Position A yes, apologies!
     
  23. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2014
    1,000
    Devon, UK
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    Graham
    Edit - Just another thought with regards thermistor. I should in theory get continuity from the thermistor connection (when disconnected) and either 2 or 21 on the harnesses? Thinking maybe broken wire??
     
  24. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,038
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #24 Steve Magnusson, Aug 30, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2017
    If you mean that you unplug it at the thermister end, and then make the resistance measurements between the two male terminals of the thermister, this is not the correct way to do it. If you want to just measure at the (unplugged) thermister itself, measure the resistance from one of the male terminals to the metal nut body of the thermister (this should match one of the pin2 to pin21 measurements at the unplugged ECU connector end when the thermister is plugged in). Then measure from the other thermister male terminal to the metal nut body of the thermister (this should match the other pin2 to pin21 measurements at the other unplugged ECU connector end when the thermister is plugged in).

    Correct. The resistance from one of the female connectors at the thermister end of the harness should have continuity to the female pin 21 at one of the injection ECU unplugged harness connectors (and the other female terminal at the thermister end to the other pin 21 female terminal at the other injection ECU unplugged connector).
     
  25. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2014
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    Graham
    Ok - Will try and explain my results

    Looking down on the unplugged thermistor:

    Front male connector to nut = 61
    Rear male connector to nut = Only continuity beep (no reading)

    Front male connector to Front ECU terminal 3 = 61
    Front male connector to rear ECU terminal 3 = 61

    Rear male connector to any ECU terminal = Nothing

    Reconnect thermistor connector, no readings across 2 and 21 on both ECU harnesses
     

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