Classiche Application Stories

Yes. That's just the start....while they give you a ticket for your parked car that is just getting stolen under their noses after which you have to sing forms for 3 hours before heading to the train station with a manic taxi driver who seems to never look forward as he waves his arms asking you what you think of the umpteenth election which will also be pointless and you arrive at the train station to find that there is a strike and you are stuck in Naples where moutains of trash are not getting picked up so, deflated, you sit at a cafe and get this ridiculously tiny cup of rocket fuel coffee and within 30 seconds someone sitting there across the noise and the smell will have told you: e bella l'Italia no?!

 

As a hobbiest, sure. I go to car shows just to look at beautiful cars. But in the real world, vintage Ferraris are a business and what these experts sign their names to results in millions of dollars made or lost. It would be hard to just be an itinerant appraiser with so much at stake!

Ferrari obviously puts a high price on the mystique of their history as evidenced by the Classiche program. Reading the posts here about it, my opinion is that it's a great idea that is very, very poorly executed.

Ken

 

There are "Experts" who are quite involved in the sale of cars.

 

Here is my question.

Who is insecure, the guy that pays $300,000 for a new car or the guy that sells it to him for $300,000?

Ciao

 

Ah yes, but they build such beautiful cars.

 

True, but such 'experts' can be more-absorbed with obtaining commission from a lucrative sale vs. upholding the reputation of the manufacturer or providing factual information to the buyer which may result in a lower-price offer or outright rejection (both would be counter-productive to the seller's bottom-line).

As a buyer, I'd feel more comfortable with information that wasn't provided to me from someone who had a financial stake in the transaction. From that perspective, the Classiche program speaks to my concern, and probably to a lot of other potential buyers.

 

Imagine that! Do you suppose this is why Ed made the comment about Doug taking a risk? Are all the other "experts" laying low because they don't want to jeopardize their chance at the golden calf?

Ferrari's intimidation will only work if Ferrari owners let it work. I'm hoping that owners of "real cars" will have the balls to tell Ferrari to bug off.

Dale

 

Forgive me if this sounds rude, but why should I as the owner of a vintage Ferrari care about your concerns? Are you willing to pay, say, 25% to 50% over market to have the Good House Keeping seal of approval? Or are you expecting to get this certification as a free good?

Folks, you have to be nuts to pay good money for any Ferrari. Moreover, you have to be really nuts to pay good money for an old Ferrari. And you have to be completely bonkers to pay any kind of money for an old Ferrari without doing your own homework.

Napolis is correct. The Internet is your friend. There is a ton of information out there on these cars, and I don't feel sorry for anyone who buys a fakey do.

Dale

 

One can never remove all uncertainty in these matters. Given the costs involved its not so unbelievable that a buyer would want validation from what is considered (by some at least) as the ultimate authority. Ferrari is a business and Classiche is a profit center with a side line of brand enhancement. In the end of course, "you pays your money and takes your chances" no matter who tells you what.

 

One truism about vintage Ferraris is that just about every "skinny tire" Ferrari has been wrecked at least once, some several times. Skinny hard tires, a lot of torque, so-so brakes, and crappy roads proved to be a recipe for disaster. Just look back at some of the old pics in this forum.

Knowing this, let's try a concrete example. A well known early 60s Ferrari suffered a wreck during its early years, and the car had to be rebuilt from the firewall forward. (I'm sure that some of you can figure out what car I'm talking about.)

It is my understanding that when this car was submitted for the Classiche certification, Ferrari said that it would have to rebuild the entire front end before Ferrari could certify the car. The logic was not that the prior repair had been done incorrectly. The problem was that it was not original.

So, using this logic, does this mean that ANY repairs that were not done by Ferrari will have to be redone before it can be certified? Remember, we are talking about 40-50 year old cars.

Your thoughts.

Dale

 

In another thread on this topic, I wrote that Mr. Nye's courage in speaking what he feels to be the truth about the certification program has not IMO matched by honest talk about the current system or regime of buying and selling Ferraris. Napolis replied, in part:


"I understand some may want to buy a "Certified" car but other's don't seem to care. There are many Ferrari's that are not "Certified" that sell every day including some very "Big" ones. There are "Experts" who are involved in selling cars as well. IMHO the buyer should do his homework, deceide what's important to him, and say yes or no.

Personally I think the Internet has been very useful in promoting "Disclosure" and discussion, some more reliable/pertinent than others, and things are what they are. No More. No Less."


I recently purchased a 330GTC (not certified - I'm one of those who don't care). I did a fair amount of research about the car on the internet, checked on the car via serial number with two "experts," and was fortunate to have Norbert Hofer perform a thorough PPI. So, to some extent, a buyer can protect himself through research. The ability to do research is, IMO, limited by one's connections. The truth, IMO - and I am new to the vintage Ferrari world - is that one's ability to research a car, especially a production car like the 330GTC, may be limited to the scope of one's connections and to the willingness of strangers to tell the truth about the car. Who is selling a car, who restored a car, and the like may influence the information one receives about it. Cars are badmouthed at times, justly or unjustly; I've heard this complained of, and I've heard it done, first hand, by so called experts. Try getting a car into one of the prominent US restorer's shops. Try even getting someone who really knows, say, 212s, to do a PPI. None of it is easy. Alienating the small cadre of experts may be worse for an owner than alienating the factory - so how brave is it, really, to speak out against certification?

I once purchased a car with an undisclosed and incorrect significant component (now corrected); the seller was a major Ferrari broker who assured me "it's all there." Now, of course, I know to check both a car's history, through folks like Mr. Roush and Mr. Massini and anyone else kind enough to help, as well as the car's integrity and correctness, thank you Mr. Hofer.

To a newcomer, Mr. Nye's (and others') insulting comments about those who have cars certified, or who take certification even somewhat seriously, are arrogant, supremely offfputting and even a bit shrill. "Proper Ferrari people," indeed. Who hands out that certification, Mr. Nye?

To me, certification represents at best a very limited vetting of a car. For a fairly common and not too old production car like the 330GTC, certification means that at least the numbers of a few major components have been photographed and checked. It may be a small comfort, and I realize that so much that is important about a car is not covered by certification, but it's something and, knowing that major auction house descriptions can be incorrect or misleading, and that experts may have axes to grind, I think you can forgive newcomers reaching for a life preserver.

 

Ofcourse and why wouldn't they? They know what's out there. I also think it's the other way around most of the time. IMO a classic car broker has to be some sort of an expert in order to buy and sell these cars succesfully. I'm talking about real experts by the way, not "Experts".

 

WCH - I'm sure Doug Nye can defend his own patch if he is interested, as can any of the other recognised experts in the field, but I don't think you understood his comments properly. By your own description of your 330GTC purchase you haven't used the Factory to find out details, rather approached some of the independent experts yourself, so I don't quite see what your gripe against his opinions are? As he spelt out in his opening post on this thread, he has many years experience as a motoring historian and has authored many books on various marques and motorsport areas that are recognised as definitive books on the subject. He, along with names such as Marcel Massini are just the sort of people that the Classiche programme should be referring too, rather than assuming that all the Ferrari expertise in the world lies in Maranello. The programme would not have so many question marks against it if some of these known authorities were involved. For a car such as a 330GTC (or our 365GT) there isn't really any tangible advantage in going through the Classiche programme except that you end up with a bill and a pretty piece of paper at the end of it. You did your research without using the official channels and I assume you are happy with the deal you got?

 

Folks, you have to be nuts to pay good money for any Ferrari. Moreover, you have to be really nuts to pay good money for an old Ferrari. And you have to be completely bonkers to pay any kind of money for an old Ferrari without doing your own homework.

Napolis is correct. The Internet is your friend. There is a ton of information out there on these cars, and I don't feel sorry for anyone who buys a fakey do.


+1

 

While Maranello may (or not) have the definitive info on how the individual cars were built the historians know more about subsequent events in the car's life and are in a better position to judge about modifications and repairs made once past the gates.

 

As an owner who isn't trying to sell me a car, I wouldn't expect you to care. But if you are trying to sell me a car, well...there are a lot of un-ethical and fraudulent people in the world. Some sellers are 'known', and some are unknown. Its not uncommon for sellers to mis-represent the car they're trying to unload - especially considering the amounts being parlayed for these machines today. From a seller's perspective, an independent review and validation of the vehicle is good insurance that the car is being properly represented, and bolsters the seller's credibility in my eyes. What does this cost? A lot less than a lawsuit. If folks are so outraged over Classiche, and think they can offer a much-better, world-recognized accredidation service, by all means......

 

If this is true it represents a pretty scary picture.The are many"skinny tire" cars out there which have never been wrecked but yes there are many that have or have been modified in some way.To take this to the ultimate,any car that has been repainted but not repainted by Ferrari could be considered by Classiche not to be original. If Ferrari is going to "blackmail" owners in this way in order to get a certificate they will lose a lot of respectability.. Some time agro on another thread I suggested a four category Classiche certification. ! Original with exceptions for tires paint etc.2 Restored to Original including parts of the type and period of the original car. 3 Restored to better than original. 4 Cars with a credible competitiom history allowing for modifications from the original during and after its competition period. All four of these categories need details of the acceptable changes from original. The object here is to open up the Classiche program to more owners and make it a more reasonable formula for classifying these cars.My suggestion is for the FCA to start considering a formular to classify the cars which could include all Ferrari owners is a way that is fare and equitable to all. I wouild be more than happy to contribute to this effort. Just one man's opinion. tongascrew

 

Please do not confuse considered criticism of a deeply-flawed system - criticism which was absolutely well-intentioned as a hopefully timely word of caution to newcomers - with gratuitous insult aimed at those who have been around long enough to know better. Who certifies "proper Ferrari people"? Perfectly understandable question.

The answer, my son, is God - by having granted them birth and the dawn of interest long before Fiat car salesmen assumed control of the front office in Maranello.

DCN

 

napolis,

maybe you should get the dino certified to make sure she is the real deal. that would be interesting.....

 

There's a Dino Factory Classiche Program? I thought the brand was defunct ....

I guess Jim's car is the template for certification. If it's on his car it's correct seeing as they only built one of those beauties.

 

Just because a car has been certified by the Classiche department, it doesn't necessarily have all of the correct major componants. I have personally seen two cars with Classiche certification that had non-original componants (340MM with incorrect intake manifolds, carbs, fuel pump, voltage regulator)(400SA with incorrect distributors/drives, carbs).

Here is a nice emblem:
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Here are Bosch ignition coils. Note: unused coil and wiring
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Here are Bosch ballast resistors
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

But wait, these distributors are Marelli and do not match the rest of the ignition system. The car has a Bosch starter, generator and voltage regulator as well
Image Unavailable, Please Login