Countach Technical Thread & Questions

Discussion in 'LamborghiniChat.com' started by jollygood, Mar 18, 2013.

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  1. preston400i

    preston400i Karting

    Dec 26, 2006
    130
    Anyone have cam timing specs for the QVI? The marks were lost when the cams were reground, and the only lift-based specs I have are from the old L406 engine manual.

    I'm also curious about torquing the cylinder head with the factory tool. It would appear to add a little leverage, in which case I'd be applying more torque to the nuts than the wrench is indicating. Is this significant enough to require some sort of correction factor, or do the torque specs account for it?

    Incidentally, the car in question is 12916, which is being resurrected after about 12 years in hiding and partial (and unnecessary) disassembly. I'll start a thread on it if anyone is interested.

    Thanks!
     
  2. em42

    em42 Formula 3
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    Wow, another resurrection! Of course your thread is more than welcome!
     
  3. Chadbourn Bolles

    Chadbourn Bolles Formula Junior
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  4. preston400i

    preston400i Karting

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    #304 preston400i, Jun 24, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017

    Is there a spec for measured valve lift at TDC like there is in the old manual? My hope was to time the cams on the bench, put the engine at TDC and install the heads with everything pre-timed.

    I can degree them afterwards, so the first pass doesn't have to be exact, just close enough so I don't have interference problems.

    Are the degree figures at .050" lift or something else?
    27.pdf
     
  5. MiuraP400

    MiuraP400 Formula Junior
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    I do not have the info you are looking for but if you really need it then you could calculate it. The key thing that is needed to calculate it is the lift versus cam angle. That can be measured pretty easily.

    Cheers Jim
     
  6. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    I have it for the 25th cars, it should be the same or very close. I'll dig it out tomorrow and post it if you like. However the factory manuals are to be taken with a grain of salt.
     
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  8. preston400i

    preston400i Karting

    Dec 26, 2006
    130

    That would be extremely helpful!


    Jim, I never thought about being able to calculate it, but I guess I could do it that way if I knew Lamborghini's definition of valve begins to open. It seems like .050" is common but I wouldn't want to bet on it.
     
  9. hashiriya

    hashiriya Formula Junior

    Feb 26, 2010
    319
    Take them out or clean, so you can read the GKN stamp. This might not lead you to anything easy to find as usually these numbers do not work for cross-reference on the web, but fyi, on LM002 I had plain Audi 100 CV joints (in between the gearbox and transfer case) and I have a p/n for Diablo ones. It might be really easier, if you take them out and give me some size references.
     
  10. MiuraP400

    MiuraP400 Formula Junior
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    Using 0.050 inches as an opening is more an American hot rodding thing and most likely not the correct lift to use. Since the cam specs have a duration of 300 degrees it suggests that the lift used is something close to 0.001 inches, i.e. 300 is a lot for a street driven car. There are many different standard lifts used in the industry so it is hard to tell which is correct. I do not like using the opening and closing specs for that reason. I prefer to use the opening and closing data to calculate the lobe separation angle and use that to time the cam. Lobe separation angle is independent of the lift used. The angle in this case is 105 degrees for both the intake and exhaust. Note the way I calculated the separation angle assumes the cam is symmetrical, if it is asymmetric than this calculation will not work. Fortunately it is rare to come across a asymmetric cam.

    Cheers Jim
     
  11. hashiriya

    hashiriya Formula Junior

    Feb 26, 2010
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    Degreeing at 0.050in lift is a standard made popular by Harvey Crane. It is the best way to figure out how well the cams would perform.
    300 degrees sounds like "advertised" duration, someting like within 0.1 mm (0.003in) lift, i.e. barely moving the needle (of the dial indicator) off the base circle.
    300 degrees ain't much for a 2V engine (advertised). It can be a good performance cam on 4V engine with medium lift, which is likely what that is. They are certainly symmetrical.

    However, the QV cams use a very big valve clearance for a DOHC system which you should also count, when analyzing the cam profile: 0.35 mm for intake and 0.50 mm for exhaust. This would significantly decrease the actual cam duration. The ramps should be very long with such big clearance (especially on exhaust).
     
  12. ElvisNasty

    ElvisNasty Formula Junior
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    Does anyone know the timing specs for the 5000S? I just fixed a broken rotor and got the distributor back on.
     
  13. randomlambo

    randomlambo Formula Junior

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    So I'm still struggling with the measurements from this post:

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/144489598-post286.html

    The front looks like it could be a good starting point. The rear right side number (13" center-to-center) for the link that goes towards the center of the car doesn't seem to fit my car by a long shot. With 13" length the car has so much positive camber it looks like a clown car...

    I'll post some pictures shortly...
     
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  15. randomlambo

    randomlambo Formula Junior

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    #313 randomlambo, Jul 11, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Here are the dimensions causing grief at the moment...on the rear suspension.

    Also -- who would be qualified to do a proper wheel alignment on a CT?
    20160711_175832 - Copy.jpg
    20160711_175825 - Copy.jpg
     
  16. MiuraP400

    MiuraP400 Formula Junior
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    #314 MiuraP400, Jul 12, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2016
    I would not worry to much about the lengths. I would set them all about mid way on the threads then adjust as required to get the proper geometry. Some will have to be tightened and others loosen to get the proper settings. While adjusting them you will want to make sure you have at least 1.5 times the thread diameter of thread engagement in the suspension arm.

    I would look for some one who is comfortable setting up the suspension on an open wheel race car. If there is not anyone around with CT experience. The suspension designs are pretty similar.

    Cheers Jim
     
  17. GraemeS

    GraemeS Karting

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    #315 GraemeS, Jul 13, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2016
    Hi Randomlambo, maybe this will help, I spent 3 days measuring an entire Alpine car back in 1987
    the lower rear front arm rod end centre to centre 310mm
    the lower rear rear arm rod end centre to centre 315mm
    the upper single Arm rod end centre to centre 180mm

    the 5000 owners manual says rear toe is 4-5mm, and Camber at -30'
    and front suspension toe in 3mm, camber of 0 deg +-20'
    front caster 5 deg

    Hope this helps
    GraemeS
     
  18. sp1der

    sp1der Formula 3
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    Spent a little bit of time making sure the brakes on my car are correctly sorted, so a new master cylinder was fitted (still slightly long pedal travel). The net cause of the long pedal travel was however the adjustment of the pedal pushrod into the booster there being approx 3mm (this may actually increase fractionally once booster vacuum is factored in) of slack which at the pedal created about 12mm of free travel before any pressure was generated in the master cylinder.


    Straight forward job to sort out as the brake pushrod is adjustable.
     
  19. preston400i

    preston400i Karting

    Dec 26, 2006
    130
    I've hit a snag in attempting to reverse engineer the valve timing. First I made some miniature degree wheels which I attached to the cam sprockets. I divided all the measurements by 2 to account for cam vs crank degrees, marked the opening/closing points, found the points where the valves begin to open, then rotated the cams back to TDC. The Destra head looks about right, or at least like what I'm used to with Alfas, with the valves on #1 closed and the cam lobes pointing away from each other. For the Sinistra head I used cylinder #7, so as a final step I backed up 30 degrees to account for 60 degrees of crank rotation before #7 reaches TDC. It looks completely different at TDC, with one cam pointing inward and one pointing more or less straight up.

    Something seems amiss here. I suppose they could look different because the intake/exhaust sides are opposite on each head, but if that were the case I would think the lobes should be pointing basically towards each other.

    The only other thing I could think of is that I've got my intake and exhaust cams mixed up. When the car was purchased, they were in unmarked boxes from the grinders, so I went on the assumption that the cams with taller lobes were the exhaust, because they usually are.
     
  20. paul328

    paul328 Formula Junior

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    Hi guys
    I haven't been on for a while as i got bored with so many people talking about values of cars and not actually about them or driving them. Well done for the new threads. They are excellent.
    I lost the d shaped catch on the bottom of the engine lid for my 85 build QV. It fell off and went through rear tyre! My luck.
    Anyhow, we got a new one from the factory which is L shaped but sits about 1 inch higher than the old one and the factory only list one.The engine lid now sits proud . I know we could lower the latch on the cross member, but its a difficult job.
    Anyone know of the different types? Or got photos of them?
     
  21. preston400i

    preston400i Karting

    Dec 26, 2006
    130
    Was cleaning up the distributor and discovered the advance springs are two different lengths, but they both seem equally stiff and nothing looks bent or broken. I'm thinking it could be intentional: working against one spring at first would give a steep advance curve that flattens out once the second spring comes into play. Is that valid, or do I have a problem?
     
  22. GraemeS

    GraemeS Karting

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    I can't speak for lambo but most springs are meant to be a different length on all the old dizzies I have worked on ,see if you can find a video of a lucus or rover dizzy rebuild on youtube on the rovers I worked on they were about 2mm different so they engaged later
     
  23. Jalpa_Mike

    Jalpa_Mike F1 Rookie
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    Mikael in Finland rebuilt his. Here is a thread he posted on with a link to a photo showing all the internals of the distributor.

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/142795868-post14.html

    Mike
     
  24. mikael82

    mikael82 Formula Junior
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    #322 mikael82, Oct 22, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I added some instructions for prosedure with my 512BB thread, so there you go:
    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/boxers-tr-m/451351-my-512bb-diy-thread.html

    Couple of notes:
    -mark only the other weight and where it belongs, also which side they are in axle
    -Open and clean (ultimately with brasd wire wheel and fine sand paper) only one side att the time.
    -find VERY high temperature grease, there are even spesific products for this, use them, as mechanism spins spary bad grease all over.
    -NERVER mix springs or washers in counterweights, if you do, you need distributor advance machine to fix it.

    I just did this job for Urraco and found that it took me one hour to remove one counterweight, so they can be really stuck. Here you can see marks I made to help assembly and how bad they can be. (I think this mechnism worked last time in 70's)
    really stuck urraco weight.jpg
     
  25. islandguy

    islandguy Formula 3
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    Got a dim battery light yesterday just like footsoldier a few years ago. It’s brighter at higher RPM.

    Voltage with battery connected: 12.35 VDC
    Voltage with car on: 13.9 VDC, voltage gauge is in the upper white, but the battery light is still on.

    I originally thought it was the voltage regulator but with 13.9 VDC I’m not sure. The alternator was rebuilt a couple years ago with a heavy duty 14 diode bosch rectifier for 200A.

    For reference the voltage regulator is a Bosch 1197311021. The new cross reference is 1197311028. 028 is listed as 65-115 Amp. Maybe I smoked it. It’s a cheap part that I can replace without removing the alternator.

    Any thoughts guys?
     
  26. randomlambo

    randomlambo Formula Junior

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    Can somebody please post gearbox and differential fluids to be used on a CT?
     
  27. GraemeS

    GraemeS Karting

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    Hi, From the 5000s Owners manual the diff is 11.2 pints of Agip f.1 Rotra MP/S SAE90
    and Gearbox is 5.6 pints of Agip f.1 Rotra MP/S SAE90
     
  28. randomlambo

    randomlambo Formula Junior

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    #326 randomlambo, Nov 3, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2016
    Same in differential and gearbox? The Rotra MP/S SAE90 appears to be 85W-90, so assuming a high quality 85W-90 will do? Also won't the 85W be too thick for cold operation?
     
  29. GraemeS

    GraemeS Karting

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    Random the manual just says both the same and sae 90 an oil of 85- 90 should not matter cause I would think they are hypiod so not effected by temporature like an engine oil which in a countach should be warmed up prior to excited driving , these old motors did have small oil galleries so flow when oil is cold is somewhat restricted from what I have read
     
  30. jenso

    jenso Rookie

    Jan 10, 2007
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    #328 jenso, Nov 10, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Good evening everybody. I have a rogue wire under the dash of my 1981 Lp400S2 and have no idea where it came off from or where it should go to. I couldn't find anything in the wiring plan either. Maybe any of you might be able to tell me. Here some pics of the rogue wire. It is near the steering column underneath the instrument panel. Any help is highly appreciated. Thanks, Jens.
    ROGUE WIRE_TYPE.jpg
     
  31. Jalpa_Mike

    Jalpa_Mike F1 Rookie
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    #329 Jalpa_Mike, Nov 10, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2016
    Jens,

    Looking at the wiring schematic, it appears that the wire color "Purple with Black Stripe" is used for the horn.

    It appears the earlier Countach's had 2 horns. One for the city and the dual trumpet air horns. The wiring schematic shows a purple w/black wire going to each one.

    Does your horn operate?

    Mike
     
  32. jenso

    jenso Rookie

    Jan 10, 2007
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    Hi Mike, thanks for your swift reply. My horn operates (the one pressing the lever left of the steering column) - just don't know which one it is. The trumpet air horn or the city horn. It is bloody loud for sure! is there another way to operate the other horn?
     
  33. Jalpa_Mike

    Jalpa_Mike F1 Rookie
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    #331 Jalpa_Mike, Nov 11, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Not sure Jens. By the time the 5000QV came along, they only used 1 horn. The dual red trumpets hooked by air hose to the air compressor.

    Not sure how this will show up on here, but here is a snap shot to of the wiring schematic of the early Countach.

    Follow the "ZN" (Purple w/black stripe) wires and see if that helps.

    Mike
    IMG_2514.jpg
     
  34. jenso

    jenso Rookie

    Jan 10, 2007
    34
    mike thanks so much for your help. i found a wiring diagram on the net that seems to be more accurate than the LP400 one that came with my car that resembles the one you posted. I'm still not sure where the wire cam off from, since all the electrical sockets and plugs seem fine and there's none that is not without a connector. Strange.
     
  35. Jalpa_Mike

    Jalpa_Mike F1 Rookie
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    My original thought looking at your photos (and seeing the amount of wiring sticking out of the wire in question) was that the wire had come loose from the connector. In otherwords, both purple w/blk wire could have shared the same connector, but the crimp did not hold and the wire came loose. Just a thought.

    Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

    Mike
     
  36. jenso

    jenso Rookie

    Jan 10, 2007
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    that exactly was my thought too. but i'm not sure...my hope was that someone with an early Lp400S2 could maybe take a photo of their connector... but my bet would be on exactly what you said: two wires sharing one connector and it came loose.
     
  37. jollygood

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    Need one or two windshield wiper spray nozzles. Are these easily available from other sources than the Lamborghini factory?
     
  38. Chadbourn Bolles

    Chadbourn Bolles Formula Junior
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  39. alberto

    alberto Formula 3
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    Anyone know the correct reference code for front trunk hood lift? Internet reference I found to Stabilus 082406 is incorrect, at least for my 1983 5000S.

    Dimensions of the hood lift taken off the car (it's the original lift too) are 325mm total length (eyelet to eyelet), 125mm throw, 100N force. There is some give in the dimensions, + or - a few mm's.
     
  40. Laust

    Laust Rookie

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    If all else fails, you can search "Liftsupportdepot" https://www.liftsupportsdepot.com/all-products/?is_ajax=1&limit=50&ln_extended_length_a=22-23&p=3 which lists these things based on technical specifications and at a very good price.
     
  41. jollygood

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  42. alberto

    alberto Formula 3
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    Thank you Laust.

    When I called with specs they said they didn't have anything. I tried their technical specs as you suggested and it turns out they have some that might work dimensionally, except that the force rating is 190N instead of the 100N that the ones I have are (the ones I have is the original; the number reference on it ends in K10, which I assume means 10Kg of force, which is around 100N). I'm assuming that this discrepancy in the force rating is why they told me they didn't have a match. Maybe I'll order the 190N ones and see how they work out.

    Finding which is the Stabilus number that the factory uses is turning out to be spectacularly difficult for something so seemingly simple.
     
  43. gday

    gday Formula 3

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    The original Stabilus part number was 371602 and was 0100N.

    The current recommended Stabilus part number is 261181 which I *think* is a touch longer and 0150N.

    -mick
     
  44. Jalpa_Mike

    Jalpa_Mike F1 Rookie
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    #342 Jalpa_Mike, Jul 24, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I thought I'd post this is the technical thread in case someone down the road tries to locate this part.

    Thank goodness both mine still function properly, but I was curious as to the availability of the Aux. Air Valves for the FI 5000QV cars.

    Here is the reply I just received from Bosch Classic in Germany.

    Mike
    IMG_3094.jpg
     
  45. Ellagirl

    Ellagirl Formula 3

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    No biggie, all it does is supply add air to the engine during warm up,once the engine temp rises it closes the add air supply, no effect on normal operating, if fail,you might have a tiny bit harder to start, but this device can be fixed very inexpensivly an simple, by replacing the heating element,
     
  46. Chadbourn Bolles

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  47. ElvisNasty

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    #345 ElvisNasty, Jul 24, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    If you can't find one, maybe try one of these. :D
    LamboPie.jpg
     
  48. Jalpa_Mike

    Jalpa_Mike F1 Rookie
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    That looks delicious!!!!!

    Mike
     
  49. alberto

    alberto Formula 3
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    Thank you.
     
  50. alberto

    alberto Formula 3
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    Correct number is Stabilus 9761CT. It has 100N of force.
     

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