Defrauded by private party seller. Seeking attorney in the SoCal area.

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by zakiu, Mar 17, 2017.

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  1. zakiu

    zakiu Rookie
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    Hi everyone! I was potentially defrauded by a private seller while purchasing a Ferrari. I am seeking an attorney in the LA area who is familiar with vehicle sales and fraud.

    I have a lot of experience in the automotive industry and am versed in all things automotive. In this particular transaction the paperwork has not even been finalized. Meaning the payment was sent, the vehicle has arrived (not as described), and no further paperwork has been completed. I have not received the title.

    Please let me know if you know of someone who can help. It would be ideal to have an attorney who understands the Ferrari culture and has had experience with FNA as well, given that a dealership's service department may be involved. I am versed across multiple manufacturers, but this was supposed to be my first Ferrari.
     
  2. WJGESQ

    WJGESQ Formula 3

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    Not in CA, but what paperwork did get completed?
     
  3. phrogs

    phrogs F1 Rookie
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    Sounds like the title hasnt been completed and delivered to him yet.



    Not sure about lawyers out there but there are quite a few laywers on this forum I'm sure someone knows someone.

    Become a member and you can post in other sections that may bring more eyes on the subject.
     
  4. Glassman

    Glassman F1 World Champ
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    Not going to comment any further than " not as described" is your own fault.
     
  5. 4rePhill

    4rePhill F1 Veteran
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    I'd say "not as described" doesn't give anything like enough information to form an opinion as to who's fault the situation is.
     
  6. cls

    cls Formula Junior
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    I once sold a car long distance that I had leased. California offers a 15 day tax free lease buyout, so I waited for payment, shipped the car, then had to wait 3 weeks for Audi to send the title. All of which was explained to the buyer. In the mean time, the buyer's BMV told him there was no such law, and it was fraud. Lawyers were called, threats were made, letters sent. A couple of weeks later he got the title and I never heard from him again.
     
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  8. Meister

    Meister F1 Rookie
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    What is the reason/response the seller has given for not providing the title? Perhaps it had a lien on it and it's waiting to clear? Are they withholding it because you have deemed the car "not as described" and you are now in a dispute? If it's a private party sale how would a dealership service department be involved?
     
  9. thorn

    thorn Formula Junior
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    Vague post is vague.
     
  10. DesertDawg

    DesertDawg Three Time F1 World Champ
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    I'd be interested to know: Did the buyer have a PPI done on the vehicle?
     
  11. energy88

    energy88 F1 Rookie
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    Didn't we have another thread on here about last week that someone identified as a possible case of "Title Jumping?" Just throwing that out as another reason for the possible delay in clearing up the paperwork.
     
  12. anunakki

    anunakki Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Cant really expect anyone to take this seriously without more information.

    As far as Title, Ive had it literally take months to get to me.
     
  13. TheMayor

    TheMayor Five Time F1 World Champ
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    What is "potentially defrauded"?

    You either are or you aren't.

    I am "potentially thin". That doesn't make me thin. :)
     
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  15. phrogs

    phrogs F1 Rookie
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    Yes it does take time to get the title some times over a month.

    Not everything is instantanious and you should have gone and looked at the car in person.

    No ppi can replace your eyes and if you didnt do a ppi well youll just have to deal with it.
     
  16. anunakki

    anunakki Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Best post !
     
  17. Dohangs

    Dohangs F1 Rookie
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    Can wait to see how this turns out.
     
  18. cool flash

    cool flash Rookie

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    Potentially defrauded means: I feel defrauded but in legal terms I am not sure I was defrauded.

    Not all of us are experts on civil law you know.

    Regards

    CF
     
  19. Lotaz

    Lotaz Formula Junior

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  20. Nospinzone

    Nospinzone F1 Rookie

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    The seller said he had the "clean New York State title in hand." It is curious that the buyer has the car and not the title. The title should have arrived even before the car (assuming the car went from NY to CA).

    I am also wondering if damage happened during transport.
     
  21. zakiu

    zakiu Rookie
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    I understand you guys are after the juicy details, but at the same time I am concerned about privacy and I do not want to be accused of any wrongdoing on my part. As such, I will not make definitive statements or provide evidence I have in advance of going to court. To my knowledge, it is best to keep details private until the lawyers say you can communicate them publicly. Currently I just need an attorney. Once I have one, I can learn what I can and cannot post publicly.

    Potentially defrauded means that as far as I can tell, I've been defrauded. I won't say for sure until a judge decides. However any attorney worth his salt will understand once presented with the facts.
     
  22. Julian Thompson

    Julian Thompson Formula Junior
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    This strikes me as a real shame. I don't know either of you guys but the fella selling the car is a long term f chat member and seems to be a real car enthusiast. You paid money and he delivered a car - so it's not outright theft - presuming the issue is condition / service related is there no way you guys can just have a man to man chat and sort this out?
     
  23. TheMayor

    TheMayor Five Time F1 World Champ
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    #22 TheMayor, Mar 19, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
    If you're interested in your privacy you have a strange way of going about it!

    Seems to me you are trying to get a bit of personal revenge by posting. I'm not blaming you but there are 10 million better ways to find a lawyer than coming to Fchat and telling everyone a member here has "potentially" screwed you over (you're not sure????)

    People who are interested in privacy tend not to air their issues in public forums and accuse someone known here they are a "potential" crook.


    I'm not saying you didn't get screwed over. Maybe you did. Maybe you're putting pressure on someone. Maybe you're just angry. But lets get off the "I'm protecting my privacy" when you start to accuse others of wrongdoing and then walk away.
     
  24. gandalfthegray.

    gandalfthegray. Formula Junior
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    I'm quite surprised you have the car without having paid for it yet.
     
  25. DesertDawg

    DesertDawg Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Fixed.
     
  26. RonH

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    Zakiu, under the Ferraris for sale Classifieds thread "2006 Ferrari F430 Spider F1 red/tan New clutch and F1 Pump" (that was the original thread where Cscat87 advertised the car for sale and you purchased the car), you said after the purchase: "FYI it appears as though the seller has committed fraud regarding this vehicle." (My emphasis added). You provided absolutely no details substantiating your claim even though the seller in the original ad posted detailed information regarding the car, both good and bad.

    In that thread there was discussion of the fact that the seller was also selling his 2009 Maserati GranTurismo. So you then went to the Other Cars for sale Classified thread "Selling my 2009 Maserati GranTurismo" also started by Cscat87 and said: "Whoever purchased this may want to contact me. Cscat87 grossly misrepresented the F430 he sold me and may or may not have done the same with this buyer. I would be interested in knowing more about their experience." Again you provided absolutely no details of you allegations.

    When you started this thread entitled "Defrauded by private party seller. Seeking attorney in the SoCal area" you said: "I was potentially defrauded by a private seller while purchasing a Ferrari." In terms terms of substance all you said was "the vehicle has arrived (not as described), and no further paperwork has been completed. I have not received the title." When pressed to provide details you say: "I am concerned about privacy and I do not want to be accused of any wrongdoing on my part. As such, I will not make definitive statements or provide evidence I have in advance of going to court. To my knowledge, it is best to keep details private until the lawyers say you can communicate them publicly."

    ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!!

    Cscat87 provided details, both good and bad, in excruciating detail in his ad about the car. Then you go out in three different threads and talk about fraud and misrepresentation and specifically target Cscat87. You do this knowing that Cscat87 is a respected, long term member of the forum and his friends are part of the forum. When you are given the benefit of the doubt and repeatedly asked for details, you come up with this crap that you are concerned about privacy and don't want to be accused of wrongdoing.

    You intentionally published in THREE different threads extreme allegations against Cscat87 with absolutely no support. If you were concerned about privacy you would not have made any post. If you didn't want to be accused of wrongdoing you would state the facts, not make outrageous unsubstantiated allegations.

    Zakiu, it is time to put up or shut up. Stop the bs and state the factual issue or shut the ---- up! It is simply not fair to use the forum to harass and make extreme unsubstantiated allegations about a long term member.
     
  27. daytona355

    daytona355 F1 Veteran
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    Used cars - the worst commodity to buy or sell. Someone always feels upset somewhere down the line.

    This guy just sounds butt hurt, maybe the radio doesn't get the oldies channel or something?

    By the way, outright accusing someone of fraud in written form - in the U.K. I'm pretty certain that itself is slanderous, and could be prosecuted in court, so this privacy bs is exactly that, BS
     
  28. zakiu

    zakiu Rookie
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    #27 zakiu, Mar 20, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
    There is no BS here. I am seeking an attorney and providing minimal background information that is quite obvious. Are you providing an attorney, or are you just trying to harass / troll? I have received support from other members and do not welcome your hostility or demands.

    I tried but he refused to be transparent and has gone into hiding.
     
  29. Julian Thompson

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    I'm very sorry to hear this. Good luck resolving your problems I really hope it can be fixed outside of the legal system because from my limited experience of it normally the only real winners end up as the lawyers themselves - everyone else seems to end up out of pocket and bruised by the experience.
     
  30. Nospinzone

    Nospinzone F1 Rookie

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    I understand that the seller hasn't provided the title in spite of his ad which stated he had a "Clean New York State title in hand." Certainly that is an issue of concern. I would think that would be Fedex'd to you well before the car even arriving.

    Also, apparently the car was not as described. I am curious what would it cost you to make the car conform to what you expected?
     
  31. cls

    cls Formula Junior
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    Once you involve attorneys, that's to be expected.
     
  32. Statler

    Statler F1 Veteran
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    And made several public accusations. I wouldn't talk to someone either after that. This is going to get expensive.
     
  33. WJGESQ

    WJGESQ Formula 3

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    Seems like the original poster just was asking for a legal referral. Not sure why that sound cause a storm.

    It would be nice if more information was provided about the failure in paper work and condition though.
     
  34. arizonaitalian

    arizonaitalian F1 Veteran
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    Really, the responses here are surprising to you?


    Its because it was for a transaction that was started on F-chat classifieds and between two f-chatters (thus one is being accused by the OP). It certainly adds to it that the OP has made negative assertions on a long-time member in three threads. I actually think the response has been measured by f-chatters.
     
  35. zakiu

    zakiu Rookie
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    Such language! I don't know what to tell you other than that I think you're exceptionally rude.

    To be honest, I've probably been using online forums since before you knew what an online forum was. Circa 1994 or earlier via BBS. Judging a book by its cover is very rude behavior, especially from a supposedly sophisticated group such as fchat, especially knowing as little as they know about the actual facts of the scenario. Lots of unwarranted assumptions, accusations, and finger pointing and not a whole lot of fact-checking.

    This is not a thread about a car for sale, nor is it a discussion thread of any characters / parties in question. It is a thread that is simply looking for an appropriate attorney who is local and experienced. Simple stuff! Please stay on topic.
     
  36. GLS12

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    Not clear what facts folks are supposed to have checked when all that appears to have happened is an accusation was made without any specifics. But maybe I missed something...
     
  37. RedNeck

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    Very interested to see if this is truly a CEL issue as mentioned in the other thread. If it is:

    1.It's stupid, a waste of time, and the seller would save himself a ton of trouble by just paying for the correction rather than fooling around with a sue-happy sap with no knowledge of cars and decided to post a non-specific accusation. FYI, I'm sure anything posted here could be used if this actually finds it way int a lawsuit.

    2. The buyer doesn't sound like someone who should be owning an exotic car if a CEL causes this kind of reaction. What happens when this thing needs a $3k+ standard service? Someone else's fault because they didn't tell him how much it would be?

    3. It's still stupid.
     
  38. Zakiu-is-A-Tool

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    Just wanted to stop by solely to say, you sound like a real tool! I bet you spend most of your life complaining and feel like everyine is out to get you. Making serious accusations all over a public forum, without providing any basis or facts, is in the poorest form possible. Despite your phony baloney indignation, regardless of what the facts are, you are a tool and I hope ypu get exactly what you deserve. Enough said.
     
  39. TheMayor

    TheMayor Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Buying a used Ferrari is like winning the lottery----



    ----in reverse. :)
     
  40. Nospinzone

    Nospinzone F1 Rookie

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    I agree.

    How about starting here-

     
  41. arizonaitalian

    arizonaitalian F1 Veteran
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    Them's some impressive bonafides!

    We are so lucky to have you here to tell all of us how to behave. You are adding so much to our forum. Please do continue to tell us what is, and is not, acceptable as the Al Gore of forums.
     
  42. 348SStb

    348SStb F1 Rookie
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    #41 348SStb, Mar 20, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
    "Takes time to get the title?" "Months?"

    From a private buyer?

    This is nuts.

    I have bought dozens of cars from private parties out of state. I always receive the title day after funds have been cleared. No ifs, ands, or buts. Sometimes I'm present to collect the title myself in advance of the car's shipment. The Buyer owns the title the moment he hands over the dough.

    1) Buyer requests in writing (via email) for copy, front and back, of title
    2) Seller sends said copy
    3) Buyer states in writing (via email) the terms of the deal, which require that the title be sent via overnight carrier with tracking number the same day on which funds have been cleared
    4) Seller agrees and states this in writing
    5) The same agreements are delineated in Bill of Sale
    6) Buyer receives signed and notarized original Bill of Sale before sending funds. This is the Buyer's protection
    7) Buyer sends funds
    8) Buyer receives title the next day

    Period end of story. It doesn't take months to receive a title from a private buyer.

    If we are talking about a lien with a lien release, Seller is responsible to have the lien released with his own funds, borrowed or otherwise - not with the funds of the Seller. Lien should be released in advance. If the Buyer relies on the good faith of the Seller to properly execute lien release, he takes a significant risk, which he is entitled to do. The risk is assessed by the Buyer through his judgment and experience.

    *****
    *****

    Original poster:

    Good luck in this ordeal. I hope it will not taint the enjoyment you imagined when you decided to take the plunge and become an F-car owner.
     
  43. Kaivball

    Kaivball Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Where is my pop-corn when you need it...

    Kai
     
  44. 348SStb

    348SStb F1 Rookie
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    This is a very smart post. Good job. If people could focus on the topic at hand and refrain from changing the subject or introducing irrelevancies or conjecture, the world sure would be a better place.
     
  45. Kaivball

    Kaivball Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Accusing another Fchat member publicly of fraud is hardly irrelevant.

    And then claiming privacy rights is a non-sequitor.

    Kai
     
  46. 348SStb

    348SStb F1 Rookie
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    #45 348SStb, Mar 20, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
    Wrong. He didn't accuse anyone here on this thread. And he didn't claim privacy rights. Your analysis is a non-sequitur (check your spelling). He stated smartly that he is not going to confirm or deny information in advance of a potential legal matter, which is just about perfectly wise - and quite considerate. That doesn't have anything to do with his rights. His rights are not under attack.

    He asked for an attorney reference. Plain and simple. What color underwear he is wearing, or did wear, here or in another place past or present, is wholly irrelevant to this thread.

    The original poster has been bullied. I do not join in the bullying.
     
  47. ar4me

    ar4me F1 Rookie
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    The apparent failure of the seller to produce the title is the odd part, particular since ad clearly states that "Clean New York State title in hand". Is withholding the title in response to the accusations of fraud/misrepresentation?
     
  48. stevenwk

    stevenwk F1 Veteran

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    They can help if you fail to get a response on this forum.

    www.calbar.org

    left side of page to referral services.
     
  49. RonH

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    Steve, that won't help. Apart from the nasty accusations, this whole thread is a waste of time. Zakiu bought the car in NY from a NY seller. He has to get a NY lawyer to sue in NY. Good luck with that! California lawyers are irrelevant (thank God!)
     
  50. zakiu

    zakiu Rookie
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    #49 zakiu, Mar 20, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
    My briefs are orange. Sorry to everyone in advance that they are not fly yellow or rosso corsa! 348SStb, your posts are appreciated.

    Thanks, I really appreciate it!

    I am glad you came to this conclusion. Please save your time and stay out of it.
     
  51. stevenwk

    stevenwk F1 Veteran

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    OP was merely asking for a referral for a lawyer in the LA area with knowledge of Ferrari culture, fraud, etc.

    That's what I provided if no one chimes in.

    Whether or not one sues in one jurisdiction or another, or can, is a different question.

    I am not providing the OP with any advice on civ pro or rules of venue.

    Thanks.
     

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