Do Vintage Fans Really Hate Modern Ferrari's?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Rossocorsa1, Aug 22, 2017.

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  1. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula Junior

    May 14, 2017
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    I love all eras of Ferrari's. I love the great vintage classics and I've recently dedicated more time to learning much more about them. I also love the cars from the 80's and 90's, as well as the modern cars.

    Is it true that vintage owners and fans really hate modern Ferrari's? If so, why? Of course, time moves on and technology is represented in different ways. Nothing (not design or engineering) stays the same. I can appreciate the incredible excitement that the older cars offer, but it seems hard to believe that an Enzo or LaFerrari doesn't make one take notice.
     
  2. Jack-the-lad

    Jack-the-lad Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Speaking only for myself, I can't say I "hate" modern Ferraris, but I would not buy one because they just don't interest me very much and I don't have any emotional connection with them in the same way I do the older ones.
     
  3. nerofer

    nerofer F1 Veteran
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    "Hating" would be too strong a word, but the modern cars do not do anything for me; my first emotion is always aesthetical, it comes from the shape of the car. The last Ferrari that gave me goose bumps at first sight was the 550 Maranello (and the 355 for the Berlinettas). Since then, that is to say starting with the 360, I find their aesthetics bland: the cars do not do nothing for me; and they are also too big.
    I admire their engines, when it is actually possible to see them (open the hood of an F12, you do not see anything mechanical, everything is wrapped-up). I admire their performance, their technology, but their shape leaves me indifferent. They do not give me any emotion, I don't even double back in the streets when one passes by. (And I find the Enzo just plain ugly; but that's just me).

    So "hating", no. Just indifference.

    Rgds
     
  4. nerofer

    nerofer F1 Veteran
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    You beat me to it...

    Rgds
     
  5. redfred84

    redfred84 Karting

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    I don't care for anything that is modern; especially here in California, where vehicles from 1976 & above need to be smogged.
    RF
     
  6. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 Formula 3
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    About sums it up pretty accurately for me, particularly the Maranello and 355 berlinetta references.
     
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  8. moriaan1

    moriaan1 Formula 3
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    What a question...

    Classic Ferrari's created the myth.
    Modern Ferrari's are just cars...

    In the old days Ferrari was about racing and winning..
    Nowadays its only about making money
     
  9. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 Veteran
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    all of that plus the classic owners mostly retain their Ferrari for an extended period of time.
     
  10. Daytonafan

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    #9 Daytonafan, Aug 22, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Certainly don't hate them but there isn't a car in the current range I have a burning desire to own either.

    If I had to choose I would probably go for the GTC4Lusso (with a V12 obviously) as my favourite new Ferrari. However I was parked next to one at an event on Sunday and it looks absolutely massive next to the Daytona and far less elegant. I'm sure the GTC4Lusso is a great GT car but so would a Porsche Panamera Turbo for a lot less money and I could spend the difference on something older and more fun.
    gtc4lusso.jpg
     
  11. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula Junior

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    All good thoughts. Everyone has a personal taste, of course. I look at a 250 LM, a 250 TR or a 375 Plus and they all get me going. I also love the 288 GTO, F40 and 328's. That said, I can't help but get very excited looking at my 488 GTB or a LaFerrari. I guess I'm just a lover of the whole brand.



     
  12. Vincent Vangool

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    Basically this.
     
  13. Smiles

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    I think that classic owners have a bad taste with what Ferrari has done over the past several years with its Classiche program and they way it has evolved.

    Search "Classiche" here for more info.

    Matt
     
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  15. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
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    I guess I'm the exception here. I love vintage cars (own a 365GT), and I also love my 612. And was very impressed with the FF I've spend time in, and the other modern V-12 Ferraris.

    The modern V-8s don't do much for me, but that's nothing new (and I plead guilty to having owned a V-8 Ferrari in the past, and maybe will do so again).
     
  16. TTR

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    +2

    Then again, I feel same regarding any modern, let's say 1980 & newer, motor vehicles.

    Just because some super/hyper car has gazillion HP, can accelerate from here to other side of world in 0.? seconds and stop right on the egde of a dime doesn't impress me a bit unless its performance is being put to regular "as intended" use, i.e. Grand Touring (?).

    I just find it sad when motor vehicles, be they modern or vintage, are reduced to be just display items.
     
  17. Dave330gtc

    Dave330gtc Formula Junior

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    A big part of the vintage attraction is the nostalgia attached to these old cars. There is a lot also going on with the senses; smell of the oil, gas, leather, sound of both the intake and exhaust, the feel of the shift lever and the thin wood steering wheel. New cars are very appliance like. Almost like sitting in your chair at home playing a video game. Technologically advanced but a disconnect between man and machine.
     
  18. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula Junior

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    I totally understand what you are saying; however, I might suggest a different way of thinking about it. Are today's Ferrari's more refined, of course. But, I have been actually a bit surprised how immersed one feels in the modern cars, particularly the mid-engine cars. True, it is a totally different experience, but I find driving in a LaFerrari, and even a 488, a complexly euphoric experience. I guess it's a different kind of "visceral". As for design - certainly beauty is subjective. Personally, I love and appreciate designs from all decades.

    I guess what I am suggesting is this - just because one has their preferences on an era doesn't mean one can't also have appreciate and awe for today's breed as well. I think most would agree, it isn't reasonable to expect Ferrari to build cars with the same design and technology from decades ago. Enzo himself was always enthralled with pushing things to the next level.
     
  19. BarryK

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    My God....I used to think the Daytona itself was not that small, but the Lusso is a giant next to it.

    Hard to beat the timeless lines of the Daytona.
     
  20. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    The old cars gave something like a romantic feeling. There was always drama with those cars. The engines were much more developed rather than the chassis so the cars were not easy to drive (today every idiot can drive a modern Ferrari...he only needs the money to buy one!).
    Every car of the 50s/60s was different - even when from the same type.

    Modern Ferraris are industrial products. Their panels are made by the same machines/robots that also produce panels for BMW, VW, Fiat, Jaguars etc., etc.
    And while Ferrari in the old days produced their own engines, gearboxes, diffs etc - this components are designed in Maranello - but made somewhere els (like the 4WD-system of the FF and Lusso that was constructed and build in Austria!). And also the engines were partly designed abroad...

    In the past all Italian cars with a manual gearbox like double-declutching. I owned a 575GTC with manual 6-speed. Double-declutching? Not possible due to the ceramic brakes...

    Particular the fact that all modern Italian Supercars do not come with the manual box anymore takes the drama away (Porsche`s recent/current success with the manuel gearbox in their cars tells the story. I had a 911R and -gee- that was a car!).

    2 days ago I drove a 488 - a great modern car: fast, great roadholding, very well balanced, but with a syntetic feeling like in any other modern Supercar.

    The romance is gone.....
     
  21. Ed Niles

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    I don't even keep track of modern cars; I'm a certified dinosaur.
    I can't help wondering if anyone from Ferrari looks here, and if so whether it has the slightest influence on their thinking. They still sell all the cars that they choose to make, and are successful at it beyond Enzo's dreams.
     
  22. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula Junior

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    Your sentiments make a lot of sense, and seem to be shared by most everyone in the vintage section. So, this begs the question - what could Ferrari do in this modern age to attract you to modern cars? But, be fair and acknowledge that Ferrari isn't just going to shelve modern technology and revert to making cars the way they did fifty years ago. Maybe they can't do anything? Maybe you just simply prefer cars of the past, which is fine.



     
  23. fiatosca

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    As an automotive designer I can only say that for me, modern Ferraris fall short aesthetically in areas such as proportion, surface quality, and refinement of detail. I find the modern California to be the biggest offender of the bunch. The wheel-to-body relationship makes the car appear ungainly and the general theme and surface execution are downright amateurish. The LaFerrari is dramatic for sure, but it along with Ferrari's other latest offerings are completely lacking in subtlety.

    As a child I was fortunate enough to be raised on a steady diet of Enzo era V12s from my father's collection. Last month I had the pleasure of housing his '64 Lusso in my garage, a car which has been in the family for forty years. Even after all this time I can stare at the car for an hour and still be mesmerized by its beauty - an absolute masterpiece. I can walk right past a 488 without feeling a thing.
     
  24. TTR

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    Well, in all fairness and unless I'm completely mistaken, most if not all vintage era road Ferraris were also made of mostly outsourced components and services with relatively little in-house labor involved.

    365 GTB/4, for example, I believe was even constructed elsewhere (mainly at Scagliettis) and only brought to "factory" assembly line for running gear installation and final mechanical sorting. Other than engine + some few mechanical and suspension pieces, most of its components were made by and sourced from variety of vendors and subcontractors from France, Germany, Italy, UK, USA, etc.
     
  25. Dave330gtc

    Dave330gtc Formula Junior

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    And I totally understand what you are saying. Modern technology is a wonderful thing. I do appreciate the current models for what they are. The factory should absolutely push forward to be on the cutting edge. I want Ferrari to produce the ultimate sports car. But I am drawn to the vintage models more. Similar to my interest in older motorcycles, furniture design, and architecture.
     
  26. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
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    My problem with this thread is that you could have made the same case any time between the mid-1950s and today, starting with the Boano.

    It's series production, not unique like the older cars, too luxurious, not competition focused.

    And let's not get started on the Lusso or GTE!
     
  27. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    A big step -IMO- would be to offer the manual gearbox as an option for the modern cars.

    For the future I am very pessemistic:
    the car driving that we all know today will be gone in about 20 -/+ years!
    It will be very interesting how Ferrari (and the others...) will cope with the new challenges like electrification and autonomous driving etc. As a lot of the big players like BMW, Mercedes, VW, Audi, PSA-Group from France and the Japanese brands will cooperate with each other by founding new joint ventures on this issue, Ferrari sooner or later needs to collaborate with someone. Fiat-Group alone does not have the cars/models to assist Maranello in this.
     
  28. sixcarbs

    sixcarbs F1 Rookie
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    Hate, no.

    I just feel modern cars have no soul. I feel more like I am piloting a ship than driving a car, I don't feel the feedback of the road the same way.

    It also doesn't help that the cars have gotten progressively bigger and heavier over the years. There used to be a great photo on this site with the V-8's lined up next to each other. Unbelievable how they have grown.

    I have had the great privilege of being a long term owner of three Ferraris, a Daytona, a 328 GTS, and a 550 Maranello. While I thought the 550 was beautiful I never really felt connected to the road, all of the walls felt too thick, like I was in a capsule. The 328 drove like a large go kart, even the Daytona which was considered large for its day had great feedback.

    I don't like all of the options offered on the newer cars. Cup holders, GPS, fancy stereos, the shields, carbon fiber. (Does the carbon fiber actually lighten anything or is it just cosmetic?) If the carbon actually lowers some weight than I am good with it, but my impression is it is all just cosmetic. These options and prices they charge for them have no place in a sports car. I wish they would just charge more for the cars if they had to and not offer them. If you really need a cup holder buy one and hang it off something.

    I like my luxury cars luxurious and my sports cars sporty. I don't like it when Rolls-Royce tries to compete on performance and speed.

    (In the late 80's I went to look at luxury sedans with my Aunt and Uncle, two Beverly Hills lawyers, and the first thing they did was start counting cup holders. I was disgusted.)

    I don't like that the F1 system offers a full auto mode. While most people say they like the F1 system because it is faster and is the latest tech I think most of these same people would have bought automatics if the choice were only Auto or Manual. JMHO

    I think a lot of the new Ferraris look great. Not the FF family and whatever it is called now.

    I think the higher horsepower is fantastic but they should offer the manual.

    I don't even like that they come with a 7 year warranty. Why shouldn't they suffer like owners of the past?

    So I don't hate the new Ferraris but at the end of the day, price for price, there is always another older one I would rather own. If you handed me any new one I would sell it and put the money towards an older one.

    The vintage cars are so much cooler, they were cooler when they were new. If you drove one new back in the day you gave up some creature comforts. Today anyone who can turn a key can comfortably drive a new one. In the past they weren't for everyone, today if Mom has the money she can drive one too, and not spill her Starbucks. These people should be relegated to Mercedes SL's.

    A Ferrari should never be practical, should never be forgiving. You want a woman with practical flats or high heels?

    Ferrari should keep the tech in the engine and suspension where it belongs but strip it out everywhere else. Cut the amenities and cut the weight. My 2 cents.
     
  29. nerofer

    nerofer F1 Veteran
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    The answer is very easy for me. I make no mystery that I am French; I do not take any particular pride in this, but as such, perhaps my eyes and my taste have been accustomed to classical European architecture, fashion, etc…around me (or coaxed into appreciating it, depending on your views on education in taste, acquired taste, etc…but this is not the matter here) and to a certain sartorial elegance if you like.
    So please Mr Marchionne, stop drawing your cars to satisfy your Asian and middle-east customers, stop with sharp creases, swooping scoops and so on, making your cars look just like transformers. Hire back designers that can draw Ferraris anchored into the bold classical Italian heritage. Do not hesitate to sacrify some points of CX or SCx, and some extra mph to classical beauty; and make the car small and light. That’s all I ask, thank you.
    I’m the first one to acknowledge that Aston-Martin has used and abused of too many variations of the classical DB9 shape in the later years, but back in the days when that shape was still rather new, I saw a DB9 side-by-side with a Ferrari 599, and believe me, from a design point of view, I didn’t have a single second of doubt about which design was “right”, and which one was “wrong” (even if the DB9 is not the performer that the 599 is, but in its original shape, it was much more pleasing to the eye)

    Rgds
     
  30. william

    william F1 World Champ
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    +1

    I find recent Ferrari rather ugly, to be honest.
     
  31. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Hate? no.
    Respect? yes.
    Lust after? Never.
    Modern Ferraris are amazing machines. Capeable of performance well beyond anything useable on the street. And that's part of the problem. If you can't drive a car to, or near to, its limits it's just not as rewarding an experience.
    Most of my ferrari buddies own newer cars and without exception they're real car guys. They're just looking for something different in a car than I am.
     
  32. enio45

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    I like them both for what they are....i have 3 vintage ones and one newer one and enjoy owning all of them.
     
  33. JohnMH

    JohnMH Formula Junior

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    I have two old-ish cars ('78 BB, '91TR). The fact is that if I were to want to spend a lot more money on a Ferrari (to drive and to enjoy) I would buy older ones than the ones I have, not newer ones.

    If I somehow found myself in the market for a new paddle shift Ferrari, it would probably be an Aventador. The new Ferraris are just fugly.
     
  34. davemqv

    davemqv F1 Rookie

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    Hate is too strong a word. But they don't possess the magic that the older cars do. Even comparing new to new- as a kid in the 80's, seeing a brand new Testarossa for the first time - low and wide with it's crazy intake grates and flying mirror was mind blowing. Seeing an 812? Looks just like a new Corvette to me. Boring.

    When you add in the older cars- 275's, 330's, 365's, even 308's...they're all prettier and more unique than what we have offered today. The one exception I'd make would be the 458 Italia coupe. If I had the extra money I'd buy one of those.
     
  35. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie
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    I vastly prefer the older cars, but I quite like many of the new ones, too. I am 28, and I think the F12 (especially the tdf) will hold a place in my heart like no other Ferrari, for a long time, simply because it is the V12 GT that defined my young-adultness. It's got everything that most people who prefer older cars dislike about new cars, but I think it's a gorgeous design and a classic Ferrari for the ages. I think in about 10 years you'll hear people saying the same - especially about the tdf.

    They have different applications. i'm no race driver, so for me, as long as Ferrari make a front engined V12 GT car, I will love the brand.
     
  36. davemqv

    davemqv F1 Rookie

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    Edit: just saw the new Portofino and so far I like it. Roof when up has a more fastback look to it than the California did, which I like a lot better. At first glance, way prettier than the 812.

    Edit: The name is stupid, though. Ferrari should stick to number names.
     
  37. Rory J

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    +1
     
  38. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    I don't hate new Ferraris, which is really sad if you think about it. I have no feelings towards them at all.
     
  39. climb

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    Somehow Ferrari's exotic character and special charm got lost along the way. Like others have said it's a lot about the styling and cars like the 246, 308, 275, 166 have not been equaled in today's cars. Much of the problem is the shear size of today's cars. Part of the beauty of a design comes from a car being small IMO. Ferrari always had beautiful sounding engines that when I heard on for the first time (348) was SO exotic like it was from another world. Don't get that in today's exhaust sounds. Not that either the style or the sound isn't good, just that it's not wonderful, mystical or other worldly the way they used to be. Certainly childhood memories and dreams have an influence, so, it makes sense that the same cars that I fell in love with when I saw them as a child or young man may not have left the same impressions on me if I'd of seen them as an older person for the first time. I guess in general it just seems the things that made Ferrari special are no longer special in the new cars. As if they've just blended into the field and because of this I have no feel for them.
     
  40. climb

    climb F1 Rookie

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    Make a beautiful car at the old foundry and with panels banged out by hand and with an English wheel. Give it unassisted rack and pinion and no driver aids, a clutch and a gas pedal tied to a mechanical wire. Make it light with a gate shifter. Flat crank with a beautiful sounding exhaust. Smaller..much much smaller. 355 sized. :)
     
  41. SCantera

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    How can anyone here "hate" a Ferrari? An old vintage guy like me still respects the engineering and passione that is built into each Ferrari. Now whether the vintage FChatter has enough interest in the new cars.... answers will vary. Personally I love the vintage cars. Still have a GTC that is my fav of my all-Italian mob. The 330 and me know each other very well. Treat her right and she will give you her all. The sounds, the perfumes, and the sense that you are really driving and feel connected from your seat to the pavement. It's a special experience.

    However......bring in a little practicality....as in accommodating a female.....and the Superamerica [or a 550] works well. Sounds great with a big V-12. Yes it is a big car. We both love taking it out top down or not. And I acquired a 599 [even bigger!!] to pour on the miles for long trips and venturing out anywhere anytime. Having 600 hp it's hard not to have fun!

    I am a V12 guy.....new or old. Although for V8s....only the 355 was the only one I really liked. No interest in the newer V8s. With a 458 I would probably be in jail. No fun under 100.
     
  42. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula Junior

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    Good thoughts.

     
  43. John Vardanian

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    I think time has a way of skewing things and making our views prejudiced, and the new Cal Spyder of today is just as attractive (or unattractive) as the new Cal Spyder was in 1962. Saying that the new cars are unattractive we suggest that the buyer of the new car is a tasteless show-off. While we idolize the men who bought new Ferraris in 1950’s and 60’s, these men were probably of the same lot.

    john
     
  44. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    The vintage Ferraris are raw maschines, some were brutish. After 300 miles of driving you need a nap and a shower! They were men-maschines.

    Today everybody can drive them....who has the money.

    But do we really want back the cars from the 60s/70s???

    Ciao!
    Walter
     
  45. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula Junior

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    This is well said. I'm reminds me of a comment I read recently on one of the 458/488 threads. I had mentioned why I love owning my 488 GTB - aside from my love of the cars design and technology, it was being part of the amazing history, lineage and bloodline of the great Ferrari's of the past. One responded, proclaiming how he didn't really care about the cranky old men that only liked vintage cars. I laughed, thinking that one day that guy would be older, waxing romantically about the 488 and admonishing whatever the modern cars of the future will be.
     
  46. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    I fully disagree. In mid-60's people with taste saw that they are starting to loose it. I know someone who in 1966 wanted himself an old-fashioned sports car with the classic beauty that was not there any more. He bought himself a 4-year-old Ferrari and held to it.

    I must fully agree. I sort of appreciate the 275 GTB, but nothing built after that comes even close what I'd expect a Ferrari to represent. I think it is a pity they were not able to keep the V8-line under the Dino brand where it belonged. That's where they finally lost it.
     
  47. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
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    In other words, he was talking about the 330GTC and 275GTB as not being classically beautiful. He probably bought a Lusso?

     
  48. TTR

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    I'm guessing a SWB ?
     
  49. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    I'm a vintage fan and don't hate the new cars.
     
  50. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    #48 kare, Aug 25, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2017
    My point is that in early 60's Ferrari "lost it" and never got it back.

    I think this happened because of Pininfarina had gained control over Ferrari designs (1953) and later (1960) took liberties out of Scaglietti who had imporoved Pininfarina's designs significantly. As a result Ferrari would either make or break under Pininfarina and while some designs were quite succesfull, others weren't and in 1970's it gets obvious: 308 is a mediocre design at best, it cannot stand at comparison to what other manufacturers were building at the time.

    For me this is a turning point; "the most exclusive cars in the world" are turning into a brand driven commodities. People buy them because they are red, have the correct badge and are recognized and envied by common people.

    For me exclusive cars should be something that common people don't even recognize. They've never seen one so they don't know what they are looking at. Take Michelangelo Antonioni's "La Notte" (The Night) as an example: the main character is driving a Lancia Flaminia Sport Zagato. I would expect that hardly anyone in the audience knows what that car really is, but it is obvious that the person is driving a VERY exclusive car. They could have used a Ferrari for the purpose as well.

    Today using a Ferrari in such a scene would be sending a TOTALLY different message. This is why I don't really appreciate the cars or connect to the people who drive them. This is where Ferrari failed - it is just a business.
     
  51. nerofer

    nerofer F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 26, 2011
    7,987
    FRANCE
    I think you're wrong in your assumptions.
    It's not because Ferrari did fail (and that might be discussed: remember, for instance, Giorgetto Giugiaro quote about the 308 GTB: "it is simply perfect, the most beautiful car in the world") that almost anyone recognise a Ferrari today, it is because of the medias.
    When I was a kid living in rural France in the sixties, in my village my chances to EVER see a Ferrari in the flesh were simply zero. In the press, zero either (no papers about automobiles at home, my Dad wasn't interessed); at the french TV about zero either (we were not allowed to watch TV very often, and furthermore, there was a single channel...) ANY italian car was very exotic.
    I remember the first day I saw a "Countach" in the flesh, it was in 1977 or 1978, so I was 17 or 18, and I wouldn't have been more surprised or more impressed to see martians.
    Today, this is simply impossible because anyone knows what a Ferrari is. It has nothing to do with the designs, but everything to do with the medias: "exotics" are not exotic at all anymore, because you see these everywhere. So the aura of rarity and mystery is lost for ever.
    I don't see any distinct point of "failure" in the design in the mid-sixties either.

    Rgds
     
  52. johngtc

    johngtc Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 4, 2005
    747
    Yorkshire, UK
    Full Name:
    John Gould
    #50 johngtc, Aug 25, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2017
    I doubt that many, if any of the Vintage crowd really 'hate' newer Ferraris. they just have a preference for the more interesting cars from days of yore!

    My first experience of Ferraris in the wild was a Lusso and GTE parked in the same (!) London Street. I then saw a new 275 GTB/4 almost daily on my way to school, but Ferraris were still very rare. Even the specialist press could not get their hands on press cars and depended upon the odd generous owner lending them his pride and joy.

    Kare and John both make good points but several major changes have taken place in the last 40 years. Primarily, ever more restrictive legislation, the move to mass production with all its constraints and the emergence of 100% profit driven public companies.

    Sadly, hand made bodies with sweeping curves are unlikely to appear again beyond one-off design exercises and production per day is more important than improvisation and ad hoc design developments. It is no coincidence that many modern cars (of different makes) look much the same!
     

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