1. I have started the new week 1 FerrariChat Update poll, please vote... http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/ferrarichat-com-update-week-1-poll.560487/
  1. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #1 joe sackey, Aug 24, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I am getting numbers all over the map from a car in England available for about $480k US (sold now I beleive) to a collector on the East Coast of the USA who Im told will sell his, but for $1m.

    Im wondering where numbers should really be and it complicated by the fact that so few of these cars change hands regularly enough to establish values.

    Joe
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  2. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Last i have seen were in between $500k and 450k Euros..

    Seems every seller of the supercars are trying to push the market up , surfing on the Pebble Beach wave..but with the stock market crisis , it might be short lived.
     
  3. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #3 joe sackey, Aug 24, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Isnt it just demand and supply? The owner of this car has turned down $650k so does this mean this particular car is worth more to HIM or that the cars are worth that in general? The 288 is rare, but at 272 production cars thats still more than the more spectacular 213 USA F40s out there. One has to be careful when a market is not well defined...

    Joe
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  4. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

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    A private seller, with no need to actually sell, may ask anything, no matter how ridiculous it may seem. Their perogative, of course. They may re-set the market. Maybe not. All they need is one buyer who MUST have THIS car.

    OTOH, a dealer, who is in the business of buying and re-selling cars, must be realistic and price at the existing market. There seem to be a few brokers who ask for high-end prices, but must, at the end of the day, come back to market prices in order to move the inventory.

    CW
     
  5. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Asking for $1m for a GTO today means that either he doesnt really want to sell but shall the right buyer come along he would let go or he has no idea of the market ..or he is trying to push the market up. If you see one GTO at $1M , then the one at $650k suddenly isnt that over priced anymore.
     
  6. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2004
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    However, I still say stick to the real market comps and don't overpay. If you don't get this car, another will come along (even with the few 288s available...IIRC, US has approximately 70-80). Maybe not quite as nice. Possibly not even the same model. But, there's always something coming along.

    Years ago I spoke to a fellow who was selling a 288 up in the New England area. He was asking $1MM at that time. Non-negotiable. VERY low miles on it. He was advertising it as the world's "best" 288. Can't remember what, specifically, lended credence to his claim other than the low miles. I obviously took a pass as the guy just wanted his number. Fair enough. I didn't have to have it, and he didn't need the $ anyway. But, I came away shaking my head just thinking that the guy was out in left field and would remain there until the cows came home. Maybe we're even speaking of the very same car!

    CW
     
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  8. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Those pics are unbelievable. I love cars being unloaded..
     
  9. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Agreed 100%. Brokers have an obligation to think clearly and be realistic.

    Joe
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  10. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Yet still $1m is unrealistic and even $650k seems out of line...

    Joe
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  11. EMILIO

    EMILIO F1 Veteran
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    i think the last 2 that sold in italy were in the 400k euro range

    who knows? really so few of these sell these days

    p.s. i'd take an F40 over a GTO and save some money ;) but the GTO is a much more rare machine
     
  12. coachi

    coachi Formula 3

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    this spiralling rise in rare car prices, such as the GTO reminds me of the market during the late eightees. I know many people have a lot of cash, as the stock market until just recently had netted those astute investors lots of money. Same as in the late eightees. Then the markets fell and the prices of rare cars dropped as well.

    I remember in 1989 an F40 commanding 1 million and more. I also remember when they sold for less than 200,000 a couple of years later.

    Is this history all over again? Sell and head for the hills? Stay tuned.
     
  13. jorge.rios

    jorge.rios F1 World Champ
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    Maybe a price between 500k or 580k is normal but 1 million..he definitely dont want to sell it.
     
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  15. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #15 joe sackey, Aug 24, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Good point about the F40 being a better car (of the same twin-turboed disposition). I just heard back from a well-known longtime Ferrari broker and he thinks the benchmark value is the RM Maranello sale where the low-mileage production car went for circa $500k US. Now that seems more sensible to me... but what do I know?
    The yellow car (below) that got $600k plus was in fact a prototype and not a production car, and yet still some think that particular auction suffered from Maranello 60th euphoria...



    Joe
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    FLY.jpg
    MC.jpg
     
  16. EMILIO

    EMILIO F1 Veteran
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    i think it is, may be a little cheap
     
  17. EMILIO

    EMILIO F1 Veteran
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    tks,
    it looks GREAT in yellow though !!! :)
     
  18. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Its a little different situation this time with the economy, the stock markets, real estate, diversification, new markets, cars owned for cash by real enthusiasts, etc etc.

    Joe
    www.joesackey.com
     
  19. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Agreed...


    Joe
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  20. nthfinity

    nthfinity F1 Veteran

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    Which car is the better driver? The 288 GTO is by far the better driver... in fact.. it feels and drives very much like a modern Ferrari, without power steering... the seating position is actually quite good, effort, throttle response is better then the F40 IMHO... The F40 is the more extreme track oriented car.. but the 288 is the better driver.

    My personal feelings is the GTO's value falls between the F40 and F50... but closer to the F40 range.
     
  21. Pav

    Pav Formula 3
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    1 mill is just pure insanity. I noticed how euphoric values were lately given during auctions... why owners are trying to align their expectations on those prices.

    By the way that GTO for 240k pounds is correctly priced (er perhaps a little to expensive as it has aftermarket exhaust syst and looks overall not ready to fit a collection).
     
  22. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Id have to agree with your thoughts...

    Joe
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  23. dan360

    dan360 F1 Rookie

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    The RM production car sold for $594,000 and bear in mind that was not for a US legal car. It had a Canadian Title and the addendum to the listing was "Please note that this vehicle is eligible for importation to the United States subject to minimal DOT modifications which can be performed by several U.S. shops." Good luck getting that done easily :)

    The Prototype sold for 683,000 which for me falls into the "Is what it is" category.

    AFAIK there are no US cars for sale right now, and to the point of the US F40s there are a lot less GTOs that are here in the US and were federalized in period. Yes in 3 or 4 years time you may be able to bring one in more easily, but its still going to be a ton of aggrevation compared to getting a US legal car.

    I know that I'm not selling mine anytime soon, and I personally don't care where values go, but I'm glad I've got the car car now. I could have bought an F40/F50 or even an Enzo, but chose not to in order to have the GTO (and a few other cars :)).

    My view is that in 2015, the GTO is a 1m$ car.

    Also in quoting "owners trying to align themselves" - always remember that buyers set the price. The big prices at Monterey were not set by the auction houses or sellers, but buyers.

    The reason big prices are being talked about is that there right now is money chasing a small supply of cars. But mostly the right cars, there has been no appreciation in the 400i or any late model Ferraris.

    Maybe the market will correct, but in my opinion most of these cars are being bought by people that want to own them, not as investments. Now 2.3M for the Steve McQueen Lusso, or 5M for a LWB California, are both IMO overpaying :)
     
  24. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #24 joe sackey, Aug 24, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I like your perspective... youre so right that ultimately it is the buyer who agrees to pay a certain price and by doing so sets a new standard... or not.

    BTW, is this your car? (front plate: EE.096.AK)

    Joe
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  25. Ermanno Claypool

    Ermanno Claypool Formula Junior

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    WOW! Amazing!
     
  26. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #26 joe sackey, Aug 24, 2007
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    Yes yellow is special but contrary to popular belief this lone-surviving prototype GTO wasnt built that way and was repainted from its original red although the former owner states that Ferrari SpA did the work.

    Joe
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  27. jplayer521

    jplayer521 Formula Junior

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    Joe I left you a few more e-mails. Mark me next in line for the F40 Please!
     
  28. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I will. That car is spoken for.

    Joe
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  29. Tad Cody

    Tad Cody Formula 3

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    #29 Tad Cody, Aug 24, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    No disrespect, Mr. Sackey, but your comparison is apples to oranges. Yes, total GTO production exceeds US-spec F40 production, but there were over 1300 F40s produced in total and (as you correctly noted) just 272 GTOs. With only ~70 or so GTOs currently in the US (none of which were US-spec) and over 200 F40s built to US-spec, the GTO is still the rarer bird in the states by about three to one, and in the world by five to one!

    I'm no expert on values by any means, however, the car pictured below was available in New England for ~$495k when I was looking on behalf of a friend in December; it had some 'stories' and fresh front end paintwork. Of course, the market on these changes by the minute, so I won't pretend December's pricing is accurate in August, but the economy certainly hasn't gotten better since that time, and this is interesting to note:

    (PM excerpt from a fellow F-chatter:)
    I hope the individual who sent me this message does not mind my sharing it, as I felt it relevant to the discussion. I will have it removed by a moderator if necessary.

    For the same money, I'd rather have the F40 myself, but it's all a matter of personal preference.

    Regards,
    Tad
    gto1.jpg
     
  30. SSNISTR

    SSNISTR F1 Veteran

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    Wow, never seen a yellow one....
     
  31. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #31 joe sackey, Aug 24, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Tad youre dead right about the rarity of the GTO - I guess I was thinking of it in different terms. And the F40 is more accomplished so many would rather have the F40 as is evident. Trouble is, lots also want a GTO...

    That New England car is ex-Ralph Lauren and it sold for around $500k which is what I think they should still be... same car below I think.

    BTW the PM that states that "a perfect car with under 1,000 miles should be $475k" tops is simply wishful thinking on the part of the poster. We can all dream, but the market pays no attention. Demand, supply and buyer's comittment is what sets the numbers.

    Joe
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    Ferrari-288-GT0-Red-st.jpg
     
  32. nthfinity

    nthfinity F1 Veteran

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    #32 nthfinity, Aug 24, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    When people tell me such things, I encourage them to find that car out there, for that price.

    Good luck.

    There is a difference between overpriced, and an impeccable immaculate car with low miles (less then 10k in this case... or less then 50k for something like a 69 Firebird 400 etc.)
    That said.... this is what a PPI is done for on these cars... to negotiate the price down to what makes sense to bring it to that immaculate condition.. IMHO, its a shame to let these cars deteriorate much... and its also a shame to see them collect dust where nobody can see or enjoy them.
    Ferrari_288_GTO_1_small.jpg
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  33. dan360

    dan360 F1 Rookie

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    The ex-Lauren car is indeed my car. It will be at the FCA event at WGI over labor day weekend for anyone that wants to see it :)

    BTW it currently has 13.5K Km, 2K of which I've added since buying it. It had 11.5K km (or 7K miles) when I acquired it. I did most of those miles on a 10 day road trip.
     
  34. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Good for you. Post images!

    Joe
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  35. thepinkumbrella

    thepinkumbrella F1 Veteran

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    #35 thepinkumbrella, Aug 25, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    This is the afformentioned GTO with TR style megaphone exhausts seen on the weekend 8-10 June 2007 for the Ferrari Racing Days at Silverstone.

    In my opinion a very beautiful car and one whose price I think will continue to rise at a healthy rate.

    Paul
    Picture373.jpg
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  36. fastmikey

    fastmikey Karting

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    This has to be the most beautiful of all ferraris - its lines are perfect. Thanks to all for the images.
     
  37. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    A word on the exhausts: Ferrari offered an Ansa "Megaphono" system as a sport exhaust option but the original units were made in mild steel and were finished black. This car wears a re-make in stainless steel.

    Joe
    www.joesackey.com
     
  38. carsinxs

    carsinxs Formula Junior

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    I love the lines of the 288. Amazing to me the number of individuals that remark it's a rebodied 308 w/an inline turbo engine... I personally am not sure where this car falls in the super Ferrari group, but would love to see one in MY gararge....
     
  39. shill288

    shill288 Formula Junior

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    Joe,

    FYI, I turned down $700K (about 500K Euro) for my GTO last month. It is one of the true CA BAR label cars. If you can find a good GTO in the States for $500K, I wouldn't hesitate to purchase it. GTOs have been migrating back to Europe recently as Europeans like them, the US has (in general) the lower mileage cars and Europeans have the exchange rate advantage. At one time the conventional wisdom was that there were approximately 70 or so GTOs in the US. There are probably less now and, given the exchange rates, there will be less in the near future. A couple of Ferrari dealers opined they thought maybe 30-35 are still in the US. That may, or may not, be true. (I think there is more than that.) If true, GTOs will be $850K+ cars next time you blink. Heck, even if it is 70 or so cars, they may be $850K cars. Several of my friends are trying to acquire the Ferrari super car suite (Enzo, F50, F40 and GTO). As more collectors do this, given the production volume, the GTO is going to be bottleneck and prices will continue to rise. As such, my predicition is they will be $1M cars. Try to find a USA F50 today, without stories, for under $1M.

    Oh, the RI GTO ended up with a local high-tech exec in Los Gatos, CA. No, not me, mine was a CA car from new.

    F40s, as cool as they are, relative to the other Ferrari super cars, are everywhere and the easiest to find/acquire.

    Steve
     
  40. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

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    Back when BBs were imported, they received a 1-time entry exemption as grey market cars. In other words, if the car leaves the US, it cannot re-enter. I've heard tales of a few BB owners who were surprised by US Customs when they tried to re-enter after driving to Canada. So, the story went that if the car was imported and exported, the car would be lost from the US fleet. Does anyone know if the same applies today to 288s? If shill288 is correct about cars going to Europe (which I do not doubt), can they re-enter? If they cannot, then the US 288 population is slowly being whittled down. OTOH, 288s that were never imported can still be brought in (assuming they're Federalized, I imagine). Anyone know for sure?

    CW
     
  41. Chaos

    Chaos Formula 3

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    thats the car from the Evo group test, according to the magazine the exhaust is a tubi.
     
  42. coachi

    coachi Formula 3

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    True, GTO's are rare, and will continue to move up in values until a recession hits, if it does; I think they will definitely go down in value. The same is true of the F40. When I bought my F 40, I may have been able to purchase a GTO for a bit more, but to me the F40 is much more attractive as a car. Of course, I would love to have one, as well as an F50 and an Enzo. Maybe in the near future.
     
  43. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Great write up as always Steve. As the most experienced 288 GTO owner in the USA we nominate you as Correspondent Emeritus :)
    Please post regularly...

    Joe
    www.joesackey.com
     
  44. thepinkumbrella

    thepinkumbrella F1 Veteran

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    As far as I know that is a Tubi exhaust and that is the car that was in the "evo" test.
    Of course I have been known to be wrong, the last time was 1986 ;)
     
  45. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #45 joe sackey, Aug 25, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Here is the original sports option system.

    Joe
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    AK.jpg
     
  46. thepinkumbrella

    thepinkumbrella F1 Veteran

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    Joe

    What is the visual difference?

    Paul
     
  47. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #47 joe sackey, Aug 25, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The original Ansa-made system is in mild steel (sounds awesome and not so "tinny" as the stainless steel Tubi system) and has a completely black-annealed appearance...

    Oh, and here below is the same car at Silverstone that day with the aforementioned Tubi 'zorst.

    The first 288 GTO I ever saw was in late 1985 or early 1986 on London's swanky Sloane Street. I had to look twice, but for sure it was a Rolling Stone all right.... Mick Jagger at the wheel of his newly-acquired 288 that he collected at Maranello himself (images of him taking delivery of it adorn Ferrari SpA museum's wall today). The lady in the passenger seat was a brunette so I surmized that it could not be Jerry Hall :)

    Joe
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    SILVERSTONE.jpg
     
  48. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #48 joe sackey, Aug 25, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    .... and on the overrun, this is what happens with the sport exhaust option :)

    Joe
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    SHILL.jpg
     
  49. nthfinity

    nthfinity F1 Veteran

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    Tubbed fenders to fit those massively wide slicks?
     
  50. dan360

    dan360 F1 Rookie

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    #50 dan360, Aug 25, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Here you go - some pictures from the FCA event at Hartford this year.
    Hartford1.jpg
    Hartford5.jpg
    Hartford6.jpg
    Hartford7.jpg
     

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