Ferrari still "juicing" or "tuning" press cars?

This topic has been covered many times. Ferrari was first to bring factory support techs to media comparison tests to ensure cars were in 'optimal condition'. Now most of the companies do it (with exception of porsche). Only way to ensure there are no ringer cars is to weigh and dyno media cars and compare results to customer cars.. but since almost all companies bring their techs with the cars, its all relatively even so who cares?

 

Porsche send three different 959 Factory Cars to be testet.

One was for Brake Test, one for Nardo with different Setup for Highspeed and one for Acceleration and Tracktime. The test was Factory Supported of course.



So i assume, even Porsche is still doing this. And everyone els was/is doing this.

 

Porsche brought their techs also for the 918 comparison with the LaF and McLaren P1. Believe it was the one on the "new" top gear.

 

The whole press test is a joke anyway. What relevance is a single flying lap?
If we want an relevant test then it should be something like a ten lap average.

Then you would see z06 vettes going into limp mode by lap 4, you would see GTRs and Z28s melting tires and going way off pace. You might see a vette Grand sport moving to the top of the list along with a GT3 and GT4.

If these are purely street cars, then the question is how rewarding are they to drive on street because pretty much any hot modern is faster than useable on road, if they are trackable then lets find out how they do sustainably on track, because the rest is just BS.

Ferrari is well known to do the ringer thing, and seems to do so to a greater degree than others. But untill we have relevant street and track tests manufactuers will build cars to beat the limited test, and this imo negatively affects product development for any real use..

How it is right now is as though the military woudl design a fighter that can do one fast pass, but couldnt sustain combat.

 

Unless they were all runnign the same spec tires the test is somewhat irrelevant anyway.
From what I remember of the show the cars were all really inconsitent lap to lap.

 

Yes I believe they put the same tires on all of them. I don't think anyone buys these cars to go max attack lap after lap. That would be a better job for a proper race car with proper safety equipment.

 

maybe true with a 918 test but lots of other tests involving Porsche said all the other companies brought tech support except Porsche. m/t dcoy, c&d lightning lap, r&t, and more.

 

Do 2, 15 min sessions on the car 5 min rest then test them

Need to be warm and fuzzy to test properly

 

So true!!

 

+1

 

Bringing the technicians or not doesn't say much about what was done to the car before it arrived. If extra tuning is done it is unlikely that it is done in the field.

 

There is another thread here somewhere about Ferrari hp numbers and 1/4 mile times which claims regular ferrari 458 F12 etc are nowhere near what the factory claims and are also slower than suposedly equal of lesser competition.

Personaly 0-60 or 1/4 miles is a somewhat irrelevant stat to me as I like winding tracks and pretty much any modern ferrari(and others) have more than plenty of Hp.

As to suspension adjustments. If youre going to the track at a minimal its fluids pads and alignemts so to me thats legit for track tests and does not make a car non streetable.

Reality these days is for most people to use their hot car anywhere near its potential the track is the only place (besides Germany, South Africa and the ME.) simply because traffic the law and consequnces are a reality.

No surpise then that we have seen an explosion of Hpde events, rebirth of tracks and tracks being built for this purpose. Concurrently we see manufacturers marketing cars are track capable or trackable.

From what I have observed (and heard from owners) very few cars are trackable out the box. By trackable I mean sustained hard laps as somene with some experience might do at a hpde, (pads fluids and alignment).

Porches seem to be consistently good out the box, and last year the cayman GT4 really seemed to be the One. Vettes seem up to it too, but require brake line upgrades as well(at least C6s did), and the new z06 cannot sustain pace. Pretty much any modern Lotus is up to it too. No surpise then that a Hpde grid largely(50%) filled with these cars.

After that well there are cars that can do it with supesion and maybe brake upgrades, its easy and inexpensive to mod a miata and still have it be streetable, many BMWs seem to fit this bill.

Then there are the cars that can run on track with some small mods but are really really expensive to do so, not least because of consumables relataed to mechanical needs, parts costs, and weight. Ferraris, GT3's, R8s, Lambos. The Ferraris probably cost way more to run than the others, and will also depreciate like a stone.

Some outlayers, New Z28, will melt tires, Gtrs will melt tires, (ie these cars can sort of do it, but are simply too heavy for yearly sustained use.

Lastly the Viper ACR by all acounts the lap king, but while street legal is it really streetble.

If youre talking a car to drive to the track, relaibly spend all day on the track and drive home. In order of expese to run, Various porche, Some Vettes, Loti, Mini modded BMW's modded Miata. Maybe also some modded mustangs.

Besides the million dollar hypercaras I dont think there is somethign to buy that will really be quicker around a track in its repsective class than the above Vette Porche Lotus. Onc can also easily and inexpensively mod a vette or lotus to be significantly faster again. Its pretty hard to beat a sorted vette.

One should also considder if driving to the track tire options, some cars youll be driving tot he track on r compounds, others have space for a jack tools and slicks in the back.

Can you take your 488 tot he track and turn good laptimes, yes. But be prepared to wrte really really big checks. Its why the guy with the new F12 TDF told me he has never tracked it, but tracks his viper ACR regularily.

One day ferrari may build a car for those of us with relative means that can track.

 

Street cars and race cars are two completely different animals. I agree, street cars are not designed for the track.
The Nurburgring fast laps are a marketing ploy. They are a not achievable by the common driver and happens in perfect environments with professional drivers with a team of engineers.
I personally would not take a street car to the track because of the lack of safety equipment.

I would take a car to the race track to drive it at speed and have fun with. You have to be prepared to burn up brake pads, stone chips, and shredded tires.

 

Still waiting for the list of consumables that are so much more expensive on Ferraris than their competition. You continue to pass this off as fact without any evidence to support it. Last time we did this, a bunch of people chimed in and said their track expenses were comparable between Porsches and Ferraris.

The main expense is the carbon brakes...which are all made by brembo....for Ferrari, for Porsche, for Chevy, for BMW, etc. The best pads are made by a small subset of manufacturers. Please elaborate on what is so much more expensive in terms of consumables on Ferraris so people can be informed and not just scared away. Thanks.

 

Did I say consumables? I said if you take your 488 to the track be prepared to write a really big check and that coment stands..

In any event on that other thread you refer to, there were people with actual experience who said Ferrais cost significantly more to run as did porche Gt3's. You'll note there are many porche besides Gt3s and most new ones today on track seem to be cayman Gt4's

I guess it all also depends how one drives.

Theres a reason why we hardley ever see a ferrari at a DE event, and even then its not runing full tilt. There's a reason why those I know with awesome ferraris(F12 TDF, Laferrari) bring somethign else to the track. Maybe its just depreciation, or maybe its durability/cost or both.

In any event didnt you run your ferrari scud on track? What was your experience, wasnt there a thread where you posted a string of sorting and repair costs.

Yep some people with unlimited means run challenge cars, which the thread you refer to said was the ferrari car to run on track, and maybe a challenge car does not cost more to race than a GT3 or cayman, given that someone on another thread said a weekend for a cayman was 25K and I know even a 17 spec miata is apparently north of 100k to race for a season.

I was in this thread adressing street cars which people can drive to the track and run reasonably. Or street cars easily moddable to be fast and relaible on track, this imo does not include ferraris or new porche Gt3s. IMO ferrari does not apply due to overall cost to run, and relative performance, better performance on track is found elsewhere for far less $ to purchase or run.

My opnion is based on observation at many many track days and what owners tell me, including the FCA guys who run various ferraris at club events, not to mention my own ferrari maintaining experience, your opinion is different and thats fine. Daily consumables is but one part of the cost in running on track.

I have yet to see of hear of a ferrari 458 or 488 lap as fast as a Viper ACR, and in mortal hands I doubt anyone is going faster than a cayman Gt4 or Vette grand sport. Ferraris are really fun charismatic street cars, and I look forwards to the day when they make something suited to the trackday enthusiast and make it in sufficient numbers so that investment and depreciation is not a guiding factor.

Meanwhile those of us who really want to use and experience a cars performance go to the track, and even those with the best ferraris use something else for whatever reason. The track today is the place where fast cars go to play, there are more ferraris sold in year than loti, yet how many ferrari do we see at a track, why is that.

That ferrari is plausibly accused of sending ringers to tests(more so than others) says much. Ferrari is a brand that races F1, they sell really cool ersatz race cars to be driven on street, beating afast one lap test time against competitors is a big part of their brand coolness. Its why they ban journalists who accuse them of sending ringers.

Thats what the core of their product is, an ersatz race car for the road, they do this race car for the road thing better than anybody. Its a really cool product all the more desireable because its supported by racing sucess (in cars completly different to street cars), a long catalogue of greats and marketing.

Ferraris are an awesomly desirable car, have really cool characteristics that others do not, they may even be more fun on road than others, but they are not the performamce benchmark. To the extent one is not tracking a street car, and given that none of the fast moderns can be driven full tilt on road, ferraris are still the the ultimate in car lust.

 

I was refering to a thread where someone said the ferraris couldnt be producing the power they claimed based on actual experience vs other cars in acceleration. there were the usual fanboi insults of the Op but in the end I believe his claims were substantiated and accepted.

I think its generaly accepted that porche figures are coservative and ferrari optimistic. Maybe the 488 changes that equation because turbo cars seem to have no problem making excess hp, and next years model is but a tune away from more hp.

Still its a pity that paper numbers is what people look to. We are now heading towards the must have 750hp and then what 1000. If you actualy drive on track these massive numbers are irrelevant. All this excess hp is just reined back by the computers(other than at speed on a straight) to make the car driveable. But yeah its fun for straighline roll on.

When it comes to real hp numbers or 1/4 mile times the fractional differences between a given ferrari and a competitor must really to all practical purposes be irrelevant. But to ferrari marketing, supporting their brand its very relevant.

One day we will see the return of drivers cars as a selling point, this is not that day, so ferrari and others need ringers and one lap wonders to win the paper spec war. Ironicaly the return of the drivers car seems to come from the USA, a country everyone else used to think knew nothing about a fine handling car full of great feedback.

 

None of my repairs can be definitively linked to running at the track, many people have had them with no track time at all, plus it's a 7 year old car that was made in small numbers, so you have to be realistic about failures.

You continue to work backwards from your own conclusion with a particular bias towards Ferrari cars; on a Ferrari site. I just find it misleading, so here we are again.

What overall cost to run them? Again, still waiting for details as someone who ran a Ferrari at the track and doesn't understand how my cost was higher. Assuming you don't crash of course - that's obvious. It should be easy to come up with since everyone tells you the same thing....like the guy that never ran the F12 because it's too expensive. Which begs the question - how is it too expensive if he never ran it? You seem to hear what you want to hear - like in the other thread and your creative interpretation of the actual data people replied with in it.

You state that investment and depreciation are guiding factors. That also makes no sense. Someone that buys a 250k+ car with the intention of tracking it is not deterred by those items. Which leads me to believe that most people have no intention of tracking their Ferrari, not that the car is not capable or too expensive to track as you conclude. This also answers your Lotus question as to why they are common at the track - people buy them solely for that purpose...like race/spec miatas as another example.

Here you are pointing the finger at Ferrari on the ringers, yet again, when everyone now sends engineers and special cars for testing. If you really think Porsche, owned by confirmed cheaters VW, pull cars off the line for testing, than you are very naive.

Car lust...LOL! I like your manifesto. Unfortunately it says more about you than Ferrari.

Have a nice day chief!

 

We are agreed.

Keith Verges before he passed ran a GT3 on track, he switched to a viper acr due to the cost of running the Gt3. Some anectdotal reports on the Mp12 said it was less than relaible when running on track. The 650 675 and 570 seem way better.

For those of us who like to track, the cayman GT4 seems a return to the purists ideal, hopefully it sets the template for others to follow.