great Sheehan Classiche article

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Rob Lay, Aug 1, 2017.

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  1. Rob Lay

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    best indépendant detailed description I've seen. not posted on site yet, but Michael's site is Michael Sheehan?s Articles - Page 1.

     
  2. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie
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    I find this a bit disturbing, to be honest. Needless to say, I disagree completely. I am, however, still some way away from being an owner, so who cares what I think...

    Thanks for the article, Rob.
     
  3. Rob Lay

    Rob Lay Administrator
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    I don't agree with his statement. The 308/TR guys are who I hang out with the most and there is zero demand for Classiche. Heck more than half the guys don't keep up with majors since they cost $8-10k now. I had Classiche done because Boardwalk offered me great deal being their test mule.
     
  4. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Rookie
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    I found the discussion of the holdbacks interesting. Disturbing to me is that the dealers in the Classiche program are pushed to send restoration work to the factory when we have some of the finest shops in the US. There are some instances where the US shops are more accurate in their restorations than the factory.
     
  5. tifoso2728

    tifoso2728 F1 Rookie
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    Yeah, I just got through reading this. I'm on Sheehan's email list.
     
  6. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 Veteran
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    Like Jeff noted the 'holdbacks' section makes for interesting reading. Especially regarding selling 35k in options at a minimum on each car sold. Also making the sales quota when there is a waiting list?
    There was a lot of back and forth some time ago about buyers being forced to spend extra on options to get an early new car. Others denied this was a criteria; with no pressure to increase the list price.

    I wonder how long this article will stay here...
     
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  8. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

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    Interesting for sure, but am I with you. To be honest, I disagree completely as well. "Ferrari Classiche marks up any work under its direction ..." and is billing after a spectacular margin not only for the outsourced work but for the certification ... No added value will be produced. This is plain business driven marketing with dealers and naïve victimes ... I don't care and of course who cares about me ...
     
  9. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    I was told by Ferrari in the UK that it can take between 6 and even longer than 12 months after the inspection by the authorised Classiche agent and then submission of the information to Classiche at Maranello for the attestation to be made and to receive the certification.
     
  10. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Rookie
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    Did they describe this duration as a function of the type of car? I would expect that many regular production cars sail through as there is virtually no research required to know the as built. On the other hand those very early cars or ones that were raced in period (especially the factory cars) could have far more research effort and with the race cars how it started life may not legitimately equal its final race build.
     
  11. Big red

    Big red F1 World Champ
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    Agreed .... Hence why I beleive holding onto your invoices if you are a service checkbook owner, or a DIY to keep the parts receipts and a log with mileage, and lots of pictures.

    Somehow this red book is being taunted as a maintence book, a lot of good this book does any owner if the car burns a quart of oil every 200 miles.
     
  12. energy88

    energy88 Formula 3
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    Guess there is no such thing as a "base" car.
     
  13. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    He didn't specify the cars. I enquired about getting a Dino 246 GT and a Boxer certified. Interestingly it costs quite a bit more for a Dino than Boxer.

    I have noticed that Hexagon Classics in London sell quite a few cars that have been Classiche certified during the time it takes them to prepare the cars and present them for sale, so it's not always the case that it takes that long.
     
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  15. George Vosburgh

    George Vosburgh Formula 3
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    I've always felt that the Enzo Era cars are worth certifying, the Fiat cars and forward are a waste of money particularly now with the changes to the program.
     
  16. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    It becomes even more strange as now LaFerrari etc. that are for sale come with the certification....
     
  17. ross

    ross Two Time F1 World Champ
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    well that settles it for good....i had not really planned on getting classiche certification on any of my cars, and i am really not going to do it now !

    these extortionate edicts are really insulting.

    how to suck the fun out of the hobby in a hurry.

    i guess thats what happens when its all about the money.

    may be time to focus on other marques....
     
  18. davemqv

    davemqv F1 Rookie

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    #16 davemqv, Aug 2, 2017
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    Classiche certification has always seemed like a unnecessarily manufactured "stamp of approval" to me. People seemed to do a pretty good job of restoring cars or determining originality before the program started. Is a car that has been perfectly restored by say - Perfect Reflections and Patrick Ottis, with a full history report by Marcel Massini, any less valuable or "right" than a Classiche car? I doubt it. All things being equal if I was choosing between a classiche certified car and a car redone by those guys (or others with similar reps), I'd choose the car done by the independents.

    Car people are suckers for wanting "all the stuff", especially as it pertains to the idea of originality. Ferrari guys are the most afflicted by this disease. Porsche has an inexpensive certificate for their guys. Ferrari (not surprisingly) figured out a way to make a boatload of money off the same instinct offering full service restoration at the "company store"...with company store pricing.
     
  19. ross

    ross Two Time F1 World Champ
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    you said it: suckers.

    its insulting.
     
  20. Rob Lay

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    Funny how we are all free market capitalists until it comes to Ferrari. ;)
     
  21. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
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    In a free market as a customer I can vote with my wallet. As long as Ferrari doesn't hold a gun to your head you can tell them to pound sand with their Classiche stuff. :)
     
  22. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

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    Well, really, is it a free market? I mean, SpA struts in (late to the game, I might add, and seemingly without giving nary a care in the past decades) and makes declarations about what's what. Oh, and pay me. A LOT. Especially if you want our seal of approval.

    Okay, while this is still technically voluntary, the tactics employed to pressure dealers trickle down to the customer, too. If dealers don't generate so much work, they're harmed. Who, ultimately, pays the price for that? It's the customers. So, as Ross says, it's not exactly "fun" or a good "experience" when you feel that your arm is being twisted.

    What SpA has done, of course, is to unilaterally declare itself the be-all, end-all. And, if you don't play along, well, maybe you won't get that coveted slot in the next allocation. Further, arguably, there's been collusion between auction houses (at least one, openly), because they now refuse to auction a car without certification. So, that's not really a free market, is it? That's SpA using its' power and leverage to exclude as a way of driving revenues and profits. One can argue that an Owner doesn't have to sell through that auction, but what's being done is the creation of a two-tier value. Either you have certification or you don't. Does this generate a premium v. discount situation? Is this some sort of misuse of authority that profits those who bow down but penalizes those who don't?

    In anti trust law, you can't use monopoly power to extract above-normal profits. Arguably, this is exactly what SpA is trying to do.

    Smart buyers will always do their due diligence. And, if you're paying hundreds of thousands or more for a car, I expect you will have a good understanding of what you're getting. But, it's always a caveat emptor arrangement. Even with some silly piece of paper that SpA, itself, completely undermined by certifying un-certifiable cars.

    CW
     
  23. ross

    ross Two Time F1 World Champ
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    from a business perspective, i can understand their actions.
    but from my enthusiast perspective it really pisses me off.

    as cornerswell points out, they are now imposing their edicts through other ways, and the aspect i am most disappointed about is the tribute rallies - specifically the mille ferrari tribute that i participated in a few years ago with my 360cs, and was fully intending to participate in with my f40 (BEFORE having resto work done on it since it is quite damaging). now apparently they will not allow me to do so without classiche certification, which is not what i want to do because i have the usual after market additions on the f40 like newer turbos, bigger brakes, tubi, fire extinguishers, etc.
    so they have effectively spoiled my chance at a desired experience unless i pay their extortionate fees and put my car back to factory settings - that dont work as well.

    ok, screw them.

    but they really dont care. they will sell every car they make, and oblige everybody to go through the classiche ringer whether i like it or not. its like working with the government !
     
  24. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula Junior

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    I'll never understand why everyone gets so upset about Classiche, or any other revenue stream that Ferrari has. They aren't a civic institution, they're a business, and they always have been. Enzo himself was a shrewd customer. You're not required to take advantage of the service. I happen to think that Classiche is pretty cool. Like it or not, an official factory stamp of authenticity will only continue to grow in value, and they are wise to continue to prop up this business unit. I happen to own a new car (2017 488 GTB), but if I do acquire an older car someday, I will likely have it Classiche certified.
     
  25. ASK328

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    #23 ASK328, Aug 3, 2017
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    They are going to start making SUV's, Corp wants to "double profits", next recession they will not sell every car they have. The FF's, cal's, and SUV's will languish on dealer lots. It's a greedy Corp mistake, and as many said Ferrari changed drastically the day of the spin off and the IPO.

    As for me a find myself looking @ 911TT's and McLaren's more -

    I agree with everything u wrote, the new rules are crazy.
     
  26. energy88

    energy88 Formula 3
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    There is a lesson to be learned here that Ferrari Corporate is ignoring- they may not be on top forever. Everything has a product life cycle. Once upon a time, Lotus 1-2-3 was the gold standard in spreadsheets and has now gone the way of the dodo bird.
     
  27. GBTR6

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    While being far from an owner, I understand the dynamic of the enthusiast. They are truly engaged and enthusiastic with the brand and what it represents, and see this as an intrusion, and damaging to that perception. It seems that this system is subject to being abused by paid favors, and the confusing car that is totally non-stock being certified as so. Like I said, I am far from an owner, but if I was, I would not like being dictated to. As someone else said, there are new players, McLaren for one, and the old standards, Porsche, Maserati, Lamborghini, to consider. This is just my opinion, and as an outsider, may be all wet.
     
  28. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

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    Much of Classiche is nothing more than a money grab. It's one thing to sell me an expensive car. It's quite another to artificially de-value it because I don't play the game and stay in your political good graces by feeding your meter all the time.

    Who exists for the other?

    Either you mind being extorted or you don't.

    CW
     
  29. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula Junior

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    They're the factory. They built the car. They have the records. To the vast majority of the community, they have the credibility. For a fee, if you choose (not required), you can have them review the current condition and state of the car, and verify it still lives up to the original and authentic standards. Sure, there are independents with plenty of credibility that can provide similar reviews, but they aren't Ferrari. My guess is, as time goes on, more and more classics will continue seeking Classiche certification. Obviously, the trend is growing. And, frankly, the cost really isn't that much, all things considered. If one day you choose to sell the car, the buyer may or may not consider this of great value. How is that devaluing your car? It actually sounds like a pretty cool (and voluntary) service.
     
  30. ross

    ross Two Time F1 World Champ
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    it ceases to become voluntary when they insist, directly or indirectly, on classiche being done in order to participate in events that they dont even run, and in sales that are not run by them. that is blocking people from enjoying their cars without paying more money to the factory. whats next? not being allowed to join fca unless your car is certified? not being able to be serviced at a dealer unless you are certified? not being able to buy oem parts unless you are certified? its a slippery slope in blackmail land...

    i am beginning to understand jay leno....

    i wont be selling my cars, or using them less because of this, but i also will take this into account when thinking about which cars i might want to own in the future. maybe i am alone in that, or maybe i am such a minority vs their production numbers that we are irrelevant. it is voluntary as you say for the moment, but i wont be volunteering too much more.
     
  31. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Let's say you have a F40. If so, you have probably done the prudent thing and massively upgraded the brakes. It is my understanding Ferrari will not certify your car unless you go back and put on the POS original brakes. Stupid.
     
  32. Rossocorsa1

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    Well, I wish I owned an F40. If I did, I would go to great lengths to assure it was fully pure and OEM. I'm a purist. That's just me.

    As to your question - correct, that is the point of Classiche certification. If one chooses to put non-OEM brakes on their car (which is certainly their right to do so), of course it wouldn't pass Classiche certification. The point of the service to verify authenticity.
     
  33. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

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    I could repeat myself and continue to address your points, but why? You seem to like it. Happy for you.

    Now, come find me after 25+ years of multiple F-car ownership. Then tell me how you feel about their arbitrary and capricious edicts.

    CW
     
  34. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

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    The point of the service is to put money in SpA's pocket...

    CW
     
  35. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula Junior

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    I am not sure what events you are referring to. I guess it depends. Certainly, there are some concourses where originality and authenticity are paramount. And, there are endless shows and events that don't require concourse standards to participate and enjoy. I suppose anything is possible, but your examples are a bit far fetched. But, who knows. I'm simply referring to a voluntary service that Ferrari offers. Choose to take advantage of it or not. Its the owners decision.

    I don't begrudge people for feeling differently. This is all just a respectable exchange of ideas. I just think Classiche is a great option. If they didn't offer it, I would wish they would.
     
  36. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula Junior

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    So what. Why is that so bad? Good for them. I just bought a brand new car from them. I don't expect them to offer me freebies the rest of my life. They're a business.
     
  37. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula Junior

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    It's all good. No hard feelings. We all love the cars. This is just and exchange of opinions. I respect your thoughts, even if we don't agree on this topic.
     
  38. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

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    They sold me the car. They don't need to keep their hand in my pocket for the rest of my life, do they? And, to disallow me from participating in SpA/FNA events if I don't allow them to do that is the very definition of extortion and unreasonable.

    I'm not at liberty to say who, but I've certainly heard that within the FNA/dealer network there's plenty of grumbling, too. SpA is the bull in a china shop, and the dealers are on the front lines dealing with owners who feel abused.

    As I've said, there are some aspects that are useful. The rest of it is nonsense.

    CW
     
  39. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

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    And, to be clear, I don't expect "freebies", either. Believe me, I've paid (a lot) for the privileges I've received along the way. But, I don't think it's okay for SpA to unilaterally harm the value of my car(s) because I choose not to get (or keep) certification.

    CW
     
  40. ross

    ross Two Time F1 World Champ
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    i guess you did not read sheehan's article with great attention....

    he says that the mille tribute is no longer open to non-classiche cars, and later says that one of the main auction houses declines to sell any car without classiche - both of these are evidence of SpA putting pressure on them. hence my references.

    but you are (willfully?) missing the point i am trying to make.
    as a testimony of authenticity of a vintage car with undocumented history, this classiche certification serves a useful purpose. everything devolving on from that scenario is increasingly obtrusive and abusive.
     
  41. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

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    I've not seen what Jaguar Heritage (or other manufactures like MB or Porsche) produces, but just maybe there are better, less intrusive and upsetting ways to achieve the goal (whatever that might be)?

    CW
     
  42. PAUL500

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    David Piper makes a good point in the petrolicious article about wiping off years of race history in order to certify a car as being as it was the day it first turned a wheel, having yet to race or prove itself!
     
  43. ross

    ross Two Time F1 World Champ
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    yews i saw that too. how true.
     
  44. GIOTTO

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    Right, but I hope that Classiche will encourage the owners of the many 275 GTB and 365 GTB/4 cut by Sheehan and others in the 80s, to restore them back to original berlinetta configuration.
     
  45. johngtc

    johngtc Formula Junior
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    +1

    Most of us who have owned a Ferrari for any length of time will have paid out many thousands on servicing and repairs - several of which were due to lash ups in original production. Until recently, owners of Enzo era cars were totally dependent upon skilled craftsmen outside of the official network, as Ferrari really didn't give a toss until they smelt a new income stream.

    And as for Rossocorsa1's comments that they built the cars, they have the records, that that were the case! First, most of the work is actually farmed out to subcontactors and, secodnly, several historians, who are posters here, know a lot more than the factory (see my comment about giving a toss as far as records are concerned1)

    I don't know if Admiral Goodwrench has had his 500MD Classiched but I'll wager he knows more about that car than anyone in the Ferrari organisation!

    Of course, we all have opinions and no one has a monopoly on what is right or wrong. This is what makes the discussion enjoyable.
     
  46. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

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    SpA has, to some extent, addressed that with their white books, I believe. For example, the Breadvan (which started life as an SWB, IIRC) can get a white book, but not a red. Maybe it's a reasonable alternative.

    SpA's archives, however, really aren't a substitute for the knowledge of the experts who've been around these cars for decades while Ferrari moved on.

    CW
     
  47. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

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    Even better said. +1 back.

    CW
     
  48. Challenge64

    Challenge64 F1 Rookie
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    I'm not sure that is true.

    Yes, the Mille Miglia could require Classiche, but the Ferrari Tribute to the Mille Miglia has not - or did not in 2016, 2017, and has no edict written up on their website for 2018.

    I have not been asked for any Classiche type of documentation for my 2016 and 2017 runs.
     
  49. Jeff Kennedy

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    I am torn on Classiche because there are some items that are legitimately good while others are excessively greedy.

    A clarification on your comment of the historians. Classiche has in the past had multiple highly respected outside historians that are part of the council. I do not know who is on it today but have known of at least 2 of the members from several years ago. And, these historians do have access to the factory files.

    Something that I do put in the good column for Classiche is their ability to determine if the proper big components are correct. There have been marketplace instances of "matching number" claims that were based upon restamps. A current seller may not know that some items were changed post-factory; they unwittingly accept what had been represented to them.
     
  50. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

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    Of note (and I don't think I'm retracing old territory), SpA imposed a Certification Application requirement for cars in the now-defunct Historic Challenge. I can't say it was the sole reason why the series died off, but it sure didn't help.

    I'm aware that this also created some bizarre activity.

    CW
     
  51. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula Junior
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    All this just proves my view from when the process started, just a profit center, nothing else. While the factory may have Build Sheets and Blueprints, they have NO bodybuilder records. Major mechanicals, yes; details, not a clue. As to promptness, I have a friend who has waited TWO YEARS for his Red Book. The errors that have come out of the process are legend, fake cars certified, original engines being restamped (and loosing forever the correct stamps) because they could make more money. As for events, the Pebble Ferrari display is for certified cars only.
     
  52. TTR

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    I respectfully disagree with above.
    The way I see it, most real car gals/guys/people don't need (or desire?) "all the stuff", especially (concourse) awards or certificates to enjoy their car.
    OTOH, many of the investment collectors or social event enthusiast who buy/own/sell cars mainly based on their publicly perceived value or status are likely the target audience (suckers ?) these certification programs are designed for.
    I mean how many real car guys need the Factory to tell them their car is authentic or need the same Factory annually to remind them that it's STILL authentic ?
     

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