Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Rob Lay, Aug 1, 2017.
aaahhhh.... then my immediate ire is misplaced and my senses calmed !
You are correct in that I have not submitted my car for the Classiche Certification process, and frankly I cannot see any reason to do so from either an expense viewpoint or a value added perspective. Many years ago I did get the "Heritage Certificate" which Mike Sheehan mentions from Ferrari at no cost. Since Pebble Beach on 2008 (where Piero Ferrari and Jean Todt awarded the Enzo Trophy for the Best Ferrari on the Field), and subsequent shows, 17 of the top 18 Ferrari judges in the world using the IAC/PFA regulations could find nothing wrong with the car including from an originality standpoint and it remains a 100 point car.
At Cavallino in Jan 2009 (where the car took Best of Show), I had a long conversation with Roberto Vaglietti and Marco Arrighi (each sequentially head of Classiche) in which they stated that I knew more about the car and its history than they, and further that the crankcase without an internal motor number could not have come from the Factory because "they always stamped them". I obviously disagree with that comment. We also discussed the fact that the factory willfully gave the car a serial number which had already been used in order for a client to avoid either carnet or tax issues. I suspect that even today that such an admission would pose some legal issue for a major manufacturer.
I am secure in the knowledge of what I have in my garage.
No, none has. Never had.
Do you work for Ferrari? Just because the company treats us like gullible idiots doesn't mean you have to as well. Just read Sheehan's article.
Not sure I follow you. Mille Miglia is neither organised by Ferrari, nor do they set the eligibility criteria. Only the MM Ferrari Tribute is a Ferrari event. Same for Targa Florio. I believe this is a new requirement for next year.
Years ago i read an article in one of the English classic car mags. the author was running an old 400I a car which at the time was worth little. he loved the cara nd the whole experience exept the part where p[eople said he rana ferrari. From his prespective ownign a ferrari put you in a special category of Naff.
Lets face it ferrari is now a bogus brand and as a car guy saying you own a ferrari is pretty negative image in most people's mind, which sadly today says much about the cars and why people today own them. Yes some of the new cars are still sort of great, but much of the greatness "has left the building".
The last authetic car company who makes cars bought by "real" enthusiasts is lotus who have c;lose on zero brand reckognition amongst the suckers.. In my book the lambo perfomante is far more of an authentic Italian drivers car than any current ferrari. Even second fiddle porche has seen fit to offer cars for drivers in the Gt3 and GT4.
ferrari today is mostly a paper fast noisy flashy easy to drive car for suckers who cant drive, essentialy a luxury wheeled handbag to display wealth or play out some imagined youth that the owner never would have really lived anyway.
Behind that lay legions of 308 mondial testraossa 355 and 550 owners who are the real true core enthusiasts of the brand. People of some but not unlimited means who love the cars for how they go more than what they represent. Yes there are soem billionares with exceptional taste too, who really max out their 275's f40's etc, but thats a severe minority at this point.
The macinations of the factory, the dealer games, classiche, well it takes much of the thrill and fun out of it.
Go to any trackday, which is the place in the 21st century where driving enthusiasts go to really use their cars. Or evn go to a private club track populated by people of means. You'll notice that real enthisiasts today, they apply elsewhere. sad but true.
And that, Robert, is good enough for me and most other real Ferrari enthisiasts.
It always gives me pleasure to see your car and from a brief conversation we had at the Quail a couple of years ago, your knowledge of and affection for the marque was clear to all.
With kind regards
My 330 is kept in the UK and I had the process done there. Quite painless but yes it did take 6-12 months from start to finish but that didn't matter. I did it because it was clear that the price of doing it was going to go up and up so best to get in sooner. Didn't do it for any other reason than its a nice thing to have and as custodian of the car for the next generation it's incumbent on me to gather the history and this is just part of it. In 20 years time the red book will be just part of a big box of files that track the life of the car and the next custodians will thank me for having done it.
I can only speak for myself. My Classiche experience at Ferrari Ft. Lauderdale, shepherded by Al Roberts, was an enjoyable, positive experience from start to finish. I'm glad I did it and would do it again without reservation if the opportunity ever presents itself.
This is "it'.
Publicly traded stock-
Airlines charging for 'extra-bags' and meals
Can you feel it?
What disturbs me is the attention to detail of their restoration work. I've been told by world class American restorers (People who are trusted with real GTO's and other examples of that caliber) that they actually end up correcting some of the work done on cars at Classiche.
The American restorers are much more detail oriented. The Italians know how to make them run but the Americans know this should be a light green wire here and a dark blue wire there. The Italians don't care about green or blue let alone the shade.
My dealings with Ferrari Classiche in the past have been very pleasant. I do believe they have there place in this system.
Also dealt with Ferrari Historians and they also have there place in the car market, but for a different car.
Possibly should call this now, the "Car Investment Business."
Take 4 Ferrari's to illustrate this;
1) 166 Inter - a buyer of this car will have done his homework. The Classiche Cert is not a significant part of the cars value. A certification by a known historian would be of much more value to the car and to the cars value.
2) 275GTB - The purchaser of this type has knowledge of Ferraris and the value of a historians report and a Ferrari Red book. If the same car had one or the other, probably more buyers would prefer a Classiche Cert but a Historians report would be of more value to the car.
3) Enzo - being a modern Ferrari of sort. Chances are this would appeal to younger buyers and although a Ferrari Red book in reality does not mean much to the validity of this actually being an Enzo, it probably would sell the car at a higher price / or quicker, than the same car not having one.
4) 430 - Definitely to the avaerage Joe a Ferrari Cert is more appealing here. Has the company name behind the car and basically who the heck is a historian.
I would generally agree with this.
Careful, Jack. You may be accused of being a Ferrari corporate mole, or up to unscrupulous espionage. HA. I'm glad you enjoyed the Classiche services.
It's all good. No need for everyone to get all upset about it. It's a service the factory offers. I think it's a great option for some. Nobody is forced to take advantage of it.
Jess said he did.
I would agree. If this is true, that is very disturbing.
I was at the factory for a tour back in April and I went to the Classiche department. Of course, I didn't inspect every detail of the cars, but I can say that there was certainly an amazing collection there being fully restored. On that day, there was an all but finished 250 LM (china red with panno blu interior), a 250 TR (which was just about ready to be reassembled and about 6 other high-end cars. I really enjoyed the experience.
It's absolutely true; we've had more than one world-class restorer fly-spec our car to correct Classiche work on customer cars.
If I understand the new rules correctly, you will have an opportunity - paying every year for the "mandatory yearly service" to "maintain" your Classiche certification . . .
I'm guessing these are Enzo era cars from the 50's and 60's, given that's the vast majority of cars that are restored by the factory? Just curious.
SO a question for Jeff Kennedy (don't mean to put you on the spot!), given the closeness of the Factory w/ the FCA in the last several years (heck, there is a contract), how far off is the day when only Classiche-certified cars will be allowed to show at an FCA National?
In general I agree about "real car guys"...I'm a life long car guy, and I'm not impressed by the "stuff", be it an old tool roll I'll never use, or a red book that tells me what I already know - that my car is a Ferrari.
But even on this forum of passionate car lovers, there are many who feel differently, and I think Classiche exploits that.
Some even copied it ... integrally ...
Yep, this bothers me as well. The 225S that lives here in Brazil had work done by Classiche's contractors when it underwent certification, and some of it is not really up to par, if you speak with a few people in the know.
What is the "stuff" that is being referenced?
Search this forum for manuals, tool rolls and, my favorite, "clock hang tags"
Exactly. To me "stuff" is anything other than the car itself. Books, manuals, tool rolls, dealer manifests, all the way down to factory brochures and colour chip books for the year the car was built.
All of these things are fun to have around and cool to look at, but in no way change your Ferrari into something it isn't already, i.e.- a Ferrari.
The trouble comes when these things become requirements by common decree. We already see dealers and auction houses highlighting the above items in ads, as they are perceived to add to the originality of the car....or maybe I should say to "complete" the originality of the car. The car isn't enough. It has to come with "the stuff", too. Even a lot of devoted car guys get caught up in this trend.
IMO, Classiche is trying to insert themselves into this mix. Once red books become common place, it will be harder to move a car on without one.
I've already seen this play out in the vintage watch world. First it was "hey, I found a cool old watch". Then you couldn't say "old" anymore...it was "vintage". Then it was only acceptable to have the best of the best, "New Old Stock" only - no dings or damaged dials or polished cases. Then you needed to have the "box and papers" that came with the watch, etc etc. Same thing is happening/has happened with vintage cars, only at a much higher price point.
Let's be honest and admit that for most of us, cars come with some degree of addictive behaviour. Classiche has certainly cottoned onto that fact and I think they're milking it. But that's just one man's opinion.
The contract you speak of addresses many other items but does not make the club a factory arm. There are some clubs in the world that are directly run by SpA but the FCA is absolutely independent. The FCA and SpA/FNA currently do have some aligned interests.
Only Classiche certified cars for the Meet? I do not see that happening. The IAC/PFA sets the standards for the Meet so they are the ultimate authority on this.
Gerald Roush got at the Ferrari records; specifically the Ferrari build sheets. They were stored at that time rather haphazardly in cardboard boxes. The records were not complete and certain serial numbers were no longer there. The factory specifically asked that he not publish any of those numbers.
To them it wasn't a big deal though. You could send for a copy of the build sheet for an early Ferrari for $25 and sometimes they sent the wrong result, instead for a different car. Much more quickly the correct second build sheets would arrive. Sort of two for the price of one.
Jacques Swaters also visited the factory and surveyed the records and he said even brought along his computer...
The Ferrari Tribute to the Mille Miglia is run by the 1000 Miglia srl and not by Ferrari. All my applications and paperwork as well as payments before hand as well as the entire check in process in Brescia was handled by people from 1000 Miglia srl.
As for Classiche being a requirement for the 2018 Ferrari Tribute would only make sense for older cars as the event allows brand new models to be run. So far there is nothing on their website and no replies to my emails from my contacts over there. IMO this is a false rumor.
Well, I won't be taking advantage of that particular opportunity.
But I'm surprised they haven't thought of this: expiration dates on certifications. Re-certify or turn in your book, which would be Ferrari property, leased to the customer.
Oops....maybe I gave 'em an idea!
According to my dealer, as of a conversation yesterday with the person that oversees Classiche certification at the dealership, they have not heard anything from Ferrari about an annual certification requirement. I suppose it could happen, but it doesn't exist currently, despite all the asssumptions.
Well I received my Classiche book this week and it certainly does say that it is only valid for one year unless the car is re-certified by a Classiche approved Ferrari dealer (It seems that in the UK not all dealers will be able to do this). I started the Classiche process late last year and none of this was mentioned then. Rather disappointing really.
Very sorry to disagree. No assumptions at all.
It very much exists already. Your contacts/dealer are not up-to-date. Which dealer have you been talking to?
See here. This is the new Factory Classiche Libretto Manutenzione ("Maintenance Booklet", additional little booklet to the standard red certification book) which every year will have to be stamped by the authorized Classiche representative. It is like a passport. Sorry for poor iphone quality pix.
In the UK so far it is Graypaul Motors and Joe Macari in London and one or two others that have been officially appointed Officina Ferrari Classiche. I understand in the end it will be a total of four Officine (plural) in the UK.
Here is a photo of Joe Macari's new Officina Ferrari Classiche in London. I took this 28 December 2016, a few days before the official opening.
This is the new factory logo that the appointed Officine are leasing.
Guess I'm in the camp of keeping all my service work showing I paid the taxes as well as my red booklet for my cars.
The yearly recertification is absurd, even my doctor and dentist don't have to go back yearly to be recertified.
Who is the dealer that has association now with 'Luca M's ' purchasing investment group.
Wanting to know if they have been appointed Officina Ferrari Classiche.
JD Classics (Derek Hood) in London but they are NOT official Ferrari dealers. They deal with all sorts of classic cars, not just Ferraris. They have recently joined forces with Morris & Welford (Miles Morris and Malcom Welford) in Newport Beach/CA.
JD Classics belongs to Matteo Montezemolo's company Charme Capital Partners. Matteo is the son of Luca Cordero di Montezemolo.
I was waiting for this...
Hood sold out to some Italian conglomerate a long time ago....
JD Classics merge with Morris & Welford...
Let's see what occurs...
Could it be that this hasn't launched in the US yet?
Either that, or the dealer you spoke with wasn't selected (yet). My understanding is that selected dealers must pay an annual lease fee ($5,500?) for the sign. The photo of the sign Marcel posted is very nice looking.
I should correct the above and note that the late Mr Roush visited the factory a few times in the 80's and got some photocopies of the factory build sheets but at no time had the originals.
^^^^ I can confirm this.
When this topic came up a month or so ago, I was caught off guard as well.
Since then I've been trying to keep up.
FWIW , my understanding is that we ( Dealerships ) have a few more weeks to get our applications in and agreements signed for consideration into the program.
While I want to be part of it, it may not make as much sense , since there does not seem to as much interest in our area , nor as many cars that would qualify due to owner upgrades and such...
Question based upon your comments above
YOU purchase an expensive car
YOU chose to NOT maintain it for 10 years
YOU chose to sell it
Has the value increased or decreased?
YOU purchase an expensive car
YOU follow guidelines that the manufacturer of said expensive car came up with
YOU chose to sell it
Can you provide an example of a car that has LOST value because the guidelines set out by the manufacturer were followed?
Or put another way
YOU are looking to purchase an expensive car, are you going to pay MORE when you find a car that was NOT maintained per the manufacturer guidelines?
Extortion... no one is forcing anyone to participate , IMO there is a choice.
I've never forced any owner to purchase Classiche, I even do my best to all but give it away, as long as the actual fee's charged by Ferrari are paid.
This is proving once again to be an interesting discussion and I can say that I am learning a lot by following this thread!
Classiche has nothing to do with maintenance.
I am well aware, I was using maintenance as an example.
But since you pointed out what I said may be construed as such, how about this for continued discussion:
It seems that Classiche wants you to "maintain "the Classiche certification by
"maintaining" the certification through annual inspection / confirmation.
Something that can easily be done when you are having the annual service performed... which an owner is already doing , right? So, what's the big deal if they stamp and sign off in your Classiche book as confirmed each year at the same time?
I have not once been told what I HAVE to charge for the inspection , so as I outlined in another discuss about this same topic a month or so ago, I for one will absolutely include the annual Classiche inspection as part of the annual service...
Is this more about the owner who swapped / borrowed parts from a friend in order to GET the original Classiche and now will be put out to have to do it every year to maintain it?
Our cars have all been maintained either by a dealer or highly-qualified, ex-factory-trained techs. Either to factory recommended schedules or better. That's not the issue. And, Classiche, as stated by miura, has nothing to do with maintenance.
So, you're missing the mark with your question. I really can't write a whole white paper right now on what's wrong with Classiche, though. There's oodles of posts available, if you care to read them.