great Sheehan Classiche article

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Rob Lay, Aug 1, 2017.

  1. I have started the new week 1 FerrariChat Update poll, please vote... http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/ferrarichat-com-update-week-1-poll.560487/
  1. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
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    Brilliant! It's simply a waste of time and money. However, customers/owners should get emancipated and become critic and independent of such manipulation.
     
  2. TeamF1Jr

    TeamF1Jr Formula 3
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    I have to assume that 1% knock off of the holdback for a Ferrari dealer having another make under the same roof does not apply to Maserati as they share the Fiat umbrella. If that's not the case, probably 95% of the dealers are getting screwed on that.
     
  3. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

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    Not sure your point. Or, are you just being sarcastic?

    Regardless, I have said that there are some aspects of Classiche that are useful.

    CW
     
  4. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
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    Not sarcatic at all. Nothing is purely negative, but overall it does not generate the praised added value and the issue with extortion you really brought to the point.
     
  5. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula Junior

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    Totally agree.


     
  6. ross

    ross Two Time F1 World Champ
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    this all reminds me of the things i hate the most about government.
    ferrari has now turned my passion into distrust and resentment.

    they could have achieved nearly the same economic result if they continued to make it a completely voluntary activity.....this slippery slope to it being an obligation is not going to end well for anybody.
     
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  8. Marcel Massini

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  9. Rob Lay

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    that picture is dead sexy to me, like some beautiful Italian girls still wearing their evening wear, all you know is their curves and a little cleavage showing. You are longing to peak underneath and get them warmed up before an all out spin.
     
  10. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

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    The aspects of Classiche that I think are useful are the ability to obtain the unobtainable with factory support. For example, you need a new motor for your SWB? No problem. Write a blank check (multiple hundreds of thousands?) and you get a motor. As well, the factory can update their records to reflect the replacement engine as being the correct, corresponding motor for your chassis. So, if you race it, it was removed before your ownership or any number of things that might have caused a motor to be replaced came to pass, then, this is a valuable service.

    To a slightly lesser extent, I think the confirmation documentation that X chassis goes with Y drivetrain is useful.

    Beyond that, it's nothing more than a way for SpA to twist the arms of its dealers and make money for itself at the expense of those who buy into the certification and re-certification. What's the point of refusing to issue you a certification if you have a tubi installed on your new(er) model car? To play games? And, really, what's the point of an annual re-certificaiton if SpA isn't intending to somehow exclude non-certified cars?

    As I said, I think the Jaguar Heritage guys seem to have a better grasp of this, from what I can tell of it. But, it's Ferrari and we are all looked at as if we're bottomless sources of revenue. I have certification on some cars. Not on others. I really don't see the value in certification, however. I paid a lot of money for a book. Now, SpA has made that useless unless I let them re-inspect it each year? Goodness, if that isn't a scam, what is?

    Then, there's the RM/Sotheby's/actory auction exclusionary practices. You want to put your car in the Leggenda e Passione auction? Not unless you have your certification. Sure, there are other auctions, but this is arguably (other than Pebble's events and possibly Amelia, now) the premier Ferrari auction of the year. Arguably, prices may be higher at this event as a result.

    Or, the well-known practice of taking history out of a car. Now, for someone who has a modern car without history, I suppose this isn't a big deal. But, WHAT could a 488 owner possible care about a red book for? Seriously. What's the value proposition? IMO, there isn't one. It's a nice red book that you can display, and some will LOVE that. Which is fine. But, for someone who owns a car that does have history, SpA's know-it-all and unthinking attitude has often taken that history right out of the car because it came after the car left the gates. So, SpA will "take it back" to as it left gate status. Is this helpful or hurtful? For many years, Ralph Lauren's collection has been given accolades, but it's also been criticized for this exact practice. It's also been criticized for being better-than-factory work.

    I don't need SpA's documents to tell me what I own. I never did. Does it make it easier for a buyer to feel confident in a purchase? In ways, I think, sure. So, there may be some psychological comfort in that stamp of approval. But, then, there's the fact that there are experts out there who can advise on a purchase who may actually disagree with the factory's conclusions. So, who do you trust more? The faceless factory (with a reputation for having certified cars that shouldn't have received certification), who couldn't have cared less about these cars until they figure out a way to monetize them or a prominent, long-time advisor with a reputation to uphold and preserve?

    I think they've gone a couple of steps too far. The fact that people want to voluntarily subject themselves to it is fine with me, but it also creates an environment of acceptance. So, if one of these documentarians asks, "Does your car have certification?" and I don't, does that mean my sale will fall through? Does that mean it's worth less, so I get a lower price? I've owned my modern cars from new. Some have certification. Others do not. I don't see any difference in the authenticity of them. I don't see any justification for a difference, either. I also don't appreciate the newly-imposed requirement that I bring my certified cars to them each and every year to re-validate that certification. That's just sticking their hand back in my pocket, and it de-valued my initial investment, because they are unilaterally taking my certification status away if I don't play their game.

    The older cars are the same. Some have certification. Others not. Moreover, the process of obtaining certification is overly-demanding, intrusive, slow and ridiculously expensive, I think. The air in your tires wasn't from Modena in 19xx? Oh, we happen to have some of that bottled up. We can sell it to you at a very nice (for us) price. You don't want it? Well, then you don't get certification. Ha! I know many owners who've gone through the process and received absurd invoices. To certify cars that were perfectly fine. I sense that this is just busy work to generate revenue for themselves. And, there's a terrible conflict of interest in that.

    So, I suppose each of us will do whatever suits our interests. But, if I want to sell one of mine that doesn't have certification, and that's an issue for a buyer, then they can just keep on looking. No interest in selling to them at a discount.

    CW
     
  11. Marcel Massini

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    #110 Marcel Massini, Aug 5, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
    It must be really hot in TX now.
    Surely you noticed that covered Baby Ferrari on the left side.

    Marcel Massini
     
  12. Marcel Massini

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    #111 Marcel Massini, Aug 5, 2017
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    The rules.

    Marcel Massini
    Classiche Libretto Manutenzione.jpg
    Classiche Rules.jpg
     
  13. Rob Lay

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    ha
     
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  15. Patrick Dixon

    Patrick Dixon Formula Junior

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    I think what you all are missing is that with Ferrari, like Apple, you don't actually own anything. You just pay them for the privilege of associating yourself with their brand. I am pretty sure that the 'sale' agreement will specify that you are only purchasing a licence to use their product, or if it doesn't it soon will.

    Next they will start putting end dates into the the ECU codes so that you have to go back and re-licence to be able to use the cars. Fortunately, the garage queens won't need to bother with that.
     
  16. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

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    When SpA introduced the F50, it was a lease-only agreement. So, you couldn't technically even buy or own the car. Many prospective purchasers backed out of the deal because of it. SpA never tried that again. They may have sold the production run, and things may have turned out okay, but they pissed off a lot of owners at the time.

    CW
     
  17. BarryK

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    The Classiche requirement train has already left the station. For participation in the September Maranello concourse event, Classiche was mandatory.

    As for Ferrari events, most of the organisation for these seem outsourced, even top end stuff like the Cavalcade which is organised by Canossa, and they handle all the paperwork e.g ACI Palermo does the Targa Florio Tribute etc. However, Ferrari controls the event. So I wouldn't be so sure that it is a false rumour.
     
  18. BarryK

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    The idea that the certification is a choice and so it is all good is naive at best. Apart from the question mark on values, ability to participate in events, auctions etc, it is a slippery slope to further money grabbing. How long before your Classiche certified car has to be serviced by an approved shop at massive higher costs than indies?

    Best outcome here, is that the buyers sensibly ignore this nonsense, and the majority of the market continues uncertified. Hopefully a few of these Classiche-required events have a bit less attendance, and the message will start getting through. A bit like the F50 lease story of CW, they may then back off from this egregious new rules.
     
  19. Marcel Massini

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    For the 70th anniversary concours in Fiorano, Sunday 10 September 2017, one has to be personally invited directly by the factory and Classiche did have a huge word in the final selection as well. Owners were invited to submit up to 5 applications for Ferraris and the factory then decided what they want.

    Canossa (for Cavalcades, etc.) is just an Italian event company that does exactly what the factory (their client) wants and asks them to do so. The historic Targa Florio has zero to do with the factory. The Ferrari Tribute to the Mille Miglia (mostly modern Ferraris) is a full factory event. The "normal" historic Mille Miglia (for classics between 1927 and 1957) is not a factory event but the organisers have direct co-operation/contact with the factory and occasionally have already refused certain cars.

    It is not false rumours.

    Marcel Massini
     
  20. BarryK

    BarryK Karting

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    That's what I thought. Thanks for confirming Marcel
     
  21. BarryK

    BarryK Karting

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    I thought you'd know a bit more about espionage than us....what with your multiple identities here...jaa1359? :)
     
  22. SAFE4NOW

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    Maserati is considered to be " another make " unfortunately.



    Regarding your first statement above, since you are already having them maintained by the dealer, then why is it a problem to let them sign off on your Classiche booklet? Has your dealer told you if they are going to charge you more to do it? I don't understand how its costing you more money or extortion, you car is already there, they sign off after visual inspection during the visit... everyone wins.

    I admit that I have not been provided the actual rules and regulations other than what can be seen in the sign off booklet MM has posted.

    My perspective is coming from the assumption that it will be a visual inspection only.
    Part of the original Classiche requires photos and measurements to be submitted for approval. The annual inspection seems to be a confirmation , to use your example, that someone has not added aftermarket wheels or exhaust, making it non-complaint, therefore not as it left the factory.

    If that is the real issue ( owner has paid to swap parts to " pass " Classiche initially and they do not want to have to pay to swap back and forth each year ) then how would that be on Ferrari? That's an owner who chose to game the system once and is now finding out that the system has closed that loop hole.


    And as for reading previous posts... I have, which is why I am trying to offer a non-confrontational counter points, from someone not trying to sell you or anyone else. Buy in or not, but the amount of dis-information can sometimes snowball.

    I also admit that the perspectives of actual owners is extremely valuable and I appreciate your taking the time to write about them ( and the other owners as well ! )



    S
     
  23. SAFE4NOW

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    Here is one question that does concern me.

    We have performed numerous Classiche inspection per client request.

    In the photo's provided by MM , the booklet says that the inspection must be performed by
    " Ferrari Authorized Ferrari Classiche Workshop " .... does that mean that if I am not chosen or we do not chose to sign up to be an authorized workshop... that our clients now need to transport their Ferrari down to San Antonio to get signed off on each year?

    S
     
  24. Marcel Massini

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    Steve

    I have no idea if Boardwalk Ferrari Dallas will be, already is, or is not a factory authorized Ferrari Classiche Workshop (Officina), besides being an official dealer, of course. I understand that the factory will designate/authorize between 35 and 50 (max.) such appointed Classiche Officine worldwide. So far I know of very few confirmed ones only.
    Worst case it may (possibly) mean that some cars will have to be sent to other (Classiche authorized) workshops, if the regular official Ferrari dealer is not in that select group.
    Disclaimer: AGAIN: Nothing has been confimed yet, this is just my private assumption and not official. I do not work for the factory and am just a private individual.

    Marcel Massini
     
  25. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 Formula 3
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    +1

    best single line on the entire thread

    going back to 1978, of my nine Ferraris - all 'pre-owned' - the only one I might have considered 'classische-ing' would have been my first, the 365GTC speciale bnuilt by Enzo for Leopoldo Pirelli, CEO of 'that firm'. But it would have been supererogatory since I had personal correspondence directly with Sr Pirelli confirming that my car was indeed his and giving me - and my ultimate buyer - some interesting background. What could Classische possibly have added for a buyer?
     
  26. BarryK

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    The annual certification isn't free, is it?
     
  27. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 Formula 3
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    #125 intrepidcva11, Aug 5, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    ...........well, maybe not Maserati; this disease is contagious. Here is Maserati's first toe into the puddle of money that's out there waiting:


    MASERATI CLASSIC COMPANY
    100 YEARS
    MASERATI CLASSIC
    NEWS & EVENTS

    Dear Maserati Enthusiast,
    it’s with great pleasure that Maserati is proud to officially announce the creation of its Classic department, referred to Italian as Maserati Classiche.

    Maserati Classic objective is to promote Maserati’s incredible history and patrimony and support Maserati Clubs and enthusiasts.

    Maserati Classic will provide Maserati enthusiasts and Clubs access to the Classic department to obtain vehicle historical technical documentation, access to review the historic parts in our inventory, memorabilia, international club information, and merchandising (reproduction of race clothing, historical toy car models, and limited edition signed photos by our Historian).

    In addition, it is our intention to be actively involved and/or be present at Maserati Club events worldwide.

    Maserati Classic can be contacted by email by all enthusiasts by writing to

    maserati.classiche@maserati.com

    Regards
    Maserati Classiche
    Modena, Italy

    P.S. I have a very beautiful and great fun Maserati Spyder, by a wide margin these cars are the best buys in the classic/exotic car market today. 4-cam dry-sump V-8 engine designed and built by Ferrari. My car is consigned to the Saratoga Automobile Auction that takes place Friday and Saturday, September 22 & 23. Here's the Auction website url:

    https://www.saratogaautoauction.org/

    the current Saratoga Automobile Museum exhibition is a rolling display of cars already consigned to the Auction. There will be telephone bidding.
    Spyder & Hall of Springs.jpg
     
  28. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 Formula 3
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    COMPLETELY OFF-TOPIC!!!

    Well - with a wry smile - in New York State we lawyers need to be recertified every two years by the Office of Court Administration. Requires our written certification that in the intervening two years we have completed at least 24 hours of continuing legal education; also requires payment of a $375. fee. Basically it's a tax on lawyers. The OCA lists current NY lawyer population as 172,630 x $375. = almost $65,000,000. added to State's coffers. It is true that $135. of the $375. goes to Client Protection Fund, to Indigent Legal Services and Legal Services Assistance Funds.
     
  29. SAFE4NOW

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    That is a question that has yet to be answered by a US Dealer.

    From MY personal perspective, as a current Service Director , is that if a client is bringing their currently Classiche'ed Ferrari in for its annual service, that we will confirm, and sign off at no additional charge to the client.

    This is my opinion based upon the information I have at this time.

    S
     
  30. SAFE4NOW

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    Similar requirements in Texas as well.

    S
     
  31. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 Formula 3
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    you are aware that FIAT spun off Ferrari as an independent Company almost two years ago?
     
  32. SAFE4NOW

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    Similar requirements in Texas as well.

    S
     
  33. BarryK

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    That's very honourable of you and good business sense, but somehow, I doubt Ferrari will give away the annual inspection. If they did, it would be a Ferrari first. Let's see what pans out.
     
  34. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    You make that statement without knowing what level of inspection or how thorough the annual renewal is. You could be setting yourself up for a lot of unpaid work.
     
  35. SAFE4NOW

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    #133 SAFE4NOW, Aug 5, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
    Thank you and agreed.


    Yes / No , can an annual confirmation inspection be more detailed than the first?

    On assumption, we will just need to visually inspect , but you are right... what if I have to pull fuel bladders completely out or perform metal tests... Yikes!

    S
     
  36. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 Formula 3
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    Steve, we're talking about an annual in conjunction with a normal annual fluids and filters service. Fairly unlikely to be seriously work-intensive. Though of course one can't guess what the Sweater and his minions may dream up.
     
  37. Challenge64

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    #135 Challenge64, Aug 5, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
    What you are saying about the Ferrari Tribute makes no sense. Out of the 95 or so entrants for 2017, only 12 cars were older than 20 years. It is absurd to think that there will be a Classiche requirement for this event for all future vehicles.

    I've emailed my contacts at the Mille Miglia for clarification but owing to the holidays I don't expect an answer anytime soon.
     
  38. Marcel Massini

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    Sir

    Please see post #117.
    Thank you.

    Marcel Massini
     
  39. Challenge64

    Challenge64 F1 Rookie
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    Sir

    Your post does not address the supposed new requirements for all Ferraris needing a Classische certification for the Ferrari Tribute to The Mille Miglia.

    After rereading post 117, all you mention is that the Ferrari Tribute to the Mille Miglia is a Full Ferrari Factory Event - despite the fact that Almost all my personal interactions, communications, approval, payments, receipts, tech inspections, applications, emails, phone calls, check points, Time cards etc etc have all been with representatives of the 1000 Miglia srl.
    But that's ok, your word is god so I'll except it too.

    Thank you.
     
  40. of2worlds

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    When Marcel speaks...
     
  41. TeamF1Jr

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    I was, but I figured there would be still some sort of agreement as many have built new dealership buildings just prior to this rule, but reading all of this makes me believe there is no gentleman's agreement or grandfather clauses.
     
  42. Marcel Massini

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    #140 Marcel Massini, Aug 6, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2017
    Seems we talk about two different events here.
    One is the historic Mille Miglia for classic cars built between 1927 to 1957 (all makes).
    The other is the Ferrari Tribute to the Mille Miglia which is mostly for the new(er) cars (Ferraris and Dinos only), and TTBOMK you have participated in that at least twice (in 2017 with 458 Speciale #212814).
    These are two different events with different rules and different organisers (except the administration), even a different starting location.

    My contribution is/was re the "old" historic Mille Miglia for classic cars (1927 to 1957) and it is this event where the organiser's selection committee consult with the factory and with Classiche to make sure that all accepted Ferraris are genuine and authentic. And possibly certified as well. Until about fifteen years ago there were up to 45 classic Ferraris participating in the Mille Miglia (NO Tribute back then). Besides the increase in value the introduction of the certification seems to have also led to a reduction of Ferrari participants. This year there were just 16 classic Ferraris, while the entire 2017 Mille Miglia (without Ferrari Tribute and without Mercedes Tribute) included about 460 classic cars. A little disappointing for those who love classic Ferraris of the 1950's.

    The other event, for the new cars, the Ferrari Tribute to the Mille Miglia, is something else.
    May be I am wrong but I don't think anybody here in this thread said that the (new) Ferraris in the Ferrari Tribute to the Mille Miglia must all be Classiche certified. Most of these Ferraris are way too young anyway for a certification (such as a 458 Speciale, etc.).

    Marcel Massini
     
  43. lgs

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    Thanks and I fully agree again.
     
  44. sixcarbs

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    That's sad and unfortunate.
     
  45. Marcel Massini

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    Well, we can now start debating what happened to the much loved Shell Ferrari Maserati Historic Challenge.
    Same story there. I have a number of personal friends who regularly used to race their classic Ferraris in the challenge but once the certification became mandatory they stopped entering their Ferraris in the factory challenge series. Which automatically led to much smaller fields. And then somebody pulled the plug and the challenge was history.

    Marcel Massini
     
  46. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula Junior

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    Another interesting thought which I don't believe has been discussed in this thread yet - is the Ferrari dealership network (and specifically Classiche authorized dealers) even fully able to service classic cars, regardless of the model? Admittedly, I don't own a vintage car, but what about an official factory supplied parts chain that long ago ended for older cars? Also, what about proper training of technicians. Is someone really going to take their 250 LM to a dealer and have a technician who's specialty is 488's and LaFerrari's, work on their car? I can't imagine that.
     
  47. TTR

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    Without going back through all posts, I believe points you're raising have been addressed already and if not on this thread, elsewhere.

    "factory supplied parts... for older cars ?"
    There are and has been for years number of independent reproducers/suppliers of hard to find mechanical parts and components which the factory can/will access as needed, put their blessing or stamp on to make them "official" and sell them at high(?) profit.
    If the owner was to try and circumvent this by buying the same part or component directly from its reproducer or "un-official" supplier (to save money?), it probably wouldn't be considered "blessed" & therefore not eligible for certification.

    "proper training of technicians" ?
    I think this was addressed in the OP article. Authorized Classiche dealers/service centers are or will be "required" (periodically) to send technician(s) to factory training, which I'm guessing the said factory won't offer without proper compensation.
     
  48. Marcel Massini

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    Nobody said a dealer's technician will have to work on a 250 LM.
    It can be assumed that the dealer's technician will perform a VISUAL inspection and comparison with red book pix and possible computer data if anything has been changed, modified, replaced on a car since the last check 12 months earlier.

    It is most probably not about a service or "maintenance" (even if the new little additional booklet is titled "Libretto Manutenzione").

    Marcel Massini
     
  49. Marcel Massini

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    Which dealer is that, please?
    Thank you.

    Marcel Massini
     
  50. Marcel Massini

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    #148 Marcel Massini, Aug 6, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Here's a photo of the Factory Training Centre in Maranello.
    Located at Via Eugenio Castellotti in the new industrial zone.

    Marcel Massini
    IMG_9515.jpg
     
  51. lancia

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    275
    Post (109) by CornersWell is well stated. The alleged strong-arm money underpinnings of Classiche and hypocrisy (i.e. silent dependence on outside sources for restoration work and parts, the lack of knowledge about their own historic product, aside from having the records to look at, ignoring important follow-on history, etc.) have diminished my respect for the company, and tainted interest. My enthusiasm is sustained only as it goes far back to a teenager in the 60's, and by knowledge shared by historians, fellow enthusiasts and restorers who have brought together expertise beyond the factory today.

    I had the good fortune to visit the factory in 1978. I simply wrote a letter, months in advance, politely asking if I could visit when I would be on vacation in Italy - a wish trip to the Italian Grand Prix on a shoestring budget. Despite no reply to my letter, on arrival in nearby Bologna, I took a chance, called the factory, and was told I was expected, please do come tomorrow. I didn't even know how to get to Maranello, so I took a train to Modena; counted my lira, just enough for a taxi to the factory (the road to Maranello was mostly farm land then). I was greeted by Franco Gozzi (!!), who introduced me to a sales director*. Now I was just a young guy, obviously not a lot of money. The director treated me with grace, and addressed me "Architetto" learning I was an architect (the one and only time in my life to be greeted with a title). He pleasantly gave me a tour of the production facilities, and a gift from my visit. It was splendid, a prized memory. And when I once wrote the factory for a copy of assembly data sheets on Dyke Ridgley's advice, they arrived in the mail six months later, post-marked Maranello. A different time; other than a good story, the point is the factory today is not exhibiting to most (more accurately, seemingly dismisses out of greed) a comparable sense of good will.

    The factory should reasonably help the customers and restorers; it would go much farther to honor a rich heritage than a ransom routine. If you are an owner, a certified copy of the original data sheets would be welcome to have with the car as a long-lasting demonstration of the original specification - a comparison for anyone to see what is different or changed (yes documents can be doctored; life is imperfect but the Ferrari world is small, readily discovered). I would pay a reasonable fee for the data sheets for my car and would be open to have an authorized dealer see the car as part of a modest service – only to record the numbers found, matching or not, and condition at a point in time for reference, regardless of its state or flaws. The owner can then decide the details going forward, what to correct or not, by whom, etc. You have 6-carbs instead of the original 3 on your 275, be my guest - the data will point out differences. Assist/acknowledge companies making quality parts as accurately as possible if the factory is not doing it themselves. Top restorers deserve respect from Ferrari, for great work and great research. After all, much of Ferrari racing legend is built on the non-factory teams of the past. This current approach is a lot of elitist BS, and would make no difference to me as a buyer or seller. I’m not interested in being taken advantage of. I trust my own study and judgment to my admitted limits of experience, and I hopefully know by now who to seek guidance from. No excuse for not doing homework, given all the information and resources out there. All said I did receive very kind help and essential confirmation, years earlier in the program, of data I provided, from a past director of Classiche. It was generous of him to research the request, timely, pleasant and welcome, the way one would appreciate. It is your heritage Piero, perhaps you are listening. Otherwise my enthusiasm is taking a hit. Anyway, I bite my tongue on Sundays and cheer for Seb and Kimi.

    [*the story gets better, I was late arriving to Maranello, because the Red Brigade had bombed one of the tracks, outside of Bologna that morning. Mr. Gozzi was most understanding, no apology necessary, he was aware of the incident. Monza, - the 12 cylinder Ferraris, Alfa Romeos and Matras screaming on the run up to Parabolica, electric.....and sadly, the loss of Ronnie Peterson.]
     
  52. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 22, 2004
    5,440
    Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Tom Wiggers
    +1

    One should also read page 1 of the Drogo book by Marc de Rijck & Jack Koobs de Hartog
     

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