great Sheehan Classiche article

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Rob Lay, Aug 1, 2017.

  1. I have started the new week 1 FerrariChat Update poll, please vote... http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/ferrarichat-com-update-week-1-poll.560487/
  1. Challenge64

    Challenge64 F1 Rookie
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    Finally we are on the same page here.

    Yes, this guy said he believes that the Ferrari Tribute to the Mille Miglia WILL require Classiche

    He responds to my post about the Ferrari Tribute to the Mille Miglia by saying...

    and you agreed with him and further stated that ..

    So once again, so we are on the same page. There are three events run during the Mille Miglia and one is called the "Ferrari Tribute to the Mille Miglia" and as of yet, other than BarryK, no one else believes that a Ferrari Classiche certificate will be required for anyone wishing entry in 2018?
     
  2. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Screw Ferrari. I don't care how anybody spins it. This is nothing more than a money grab by Ferrari. If you are so insecure about your car that you need a "book" from Spa to enable you to sleep at night, nothing is going to help you.
     
  3. davemqv

    davemqv F1 Rookie

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    Bingo. I'd say the same thing for a tool roll, as well.
     
  4. TTR

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    #155 TTR, Aug 7, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
    I wonder if technicians(?) seeking to advance their certification credentials at this facility are being taught actual history and hands-on techniques how the older/vintage cars were made or if the curriculum is designed more for how they're expected to tow the Corporate line without questioning it (i.e. "I hereby pledge ..." or something to that effect) ?

    It would be interesting to see how difficult to grasp the concept of the real history, especially the vintage hand crafting techniques is for younger techs(?) who are more accustomed to provide services by computer diagnosing and replacing part(s) IT deems defective on vehicles mostly assembled/built by robots at different stages of a converyor belt.
     
  5. TTR

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    Now, now !?!
    Someday "They" might (or will ?) expand the program to include those and books/manuals too. And only authorized/blessed/stamped sets, whether or not they came the specific car, will be eligible.
    And I can see the future: Any and all parts or performed services, even if done in the past, not acquired thru "proper" channels will disqualify certification.
     
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  7. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

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    Not to worry- if your tool roll is missing a screwdriver, Classiche can source one for you from a 3rd party and then bless ($$$) it for you so it's 'real'.

    I'm with Lancia
    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/145513632-post149.html
    and Dale
    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/145513901-post152.html

    Gang of corporate money grabbers who have no ties or knowledge connecting them to Enzo era who think they can hire experts to administer and then monetize the entirety of Ferrari ownership at exorbitant rates. What a load of BS.
     
  8. The Strad

    The Strad Formula Junior
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    I found this 'old' Fchat page....

    FerrariChat.com: Do Ferraris use Fiat Parts ?

    I wonder what the Classiche experts would say, if they 'd find out that some of your Ferrari parts (handles, switches, lights, etc...) originally didn't come out of a Ferrari box.
     
  9. tifoso2728

    tifoso2728 F1 Rookie
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    It's been a long time since I saw it, but once I saw a Ferrari/Fiat interchange manual for parts. I wonder if there is a current one out there?
     
  10. The Strad

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    What a pity.....that Red Book somehow belongs to a specific car.
    When I sold my 328 GTS, it was clear that the deal was, 'Red Book included'. Not only the buyer was quite passionate about it, so was I! I had the Certification done a few years earlier, and I never regretted it. For the nice memory of it, it just made a copy (of the main certification page) for my archive.
    Anyway, the Certification, and the Red Book as proof of it, helped selling the 328 pretty fast (and advantageous, I 'd say).
     
  11. TTR

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    So how soon until we start seeing "fake" Red Books flooding market places, including memorabilia shows around the globe ? Blank ones, if needed ?
    Actually, it wouldn't surprise me at all if such were already available.
    And once again, it might take experienced & keen eyes of experts to distinguish between them and real ones.
    Maybe an annual certification for the Red Book will eventually be required ? ;-)
     
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  13. Big red

    Big red F1 World Champ
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    Nothing is stopping people to do it once if they choose. You get a nice book that verifiers the car if you need that special feeling. I'm sure they will be more than happy to take your money.
     
  14. Natkingcolebasket69

    Jul 2, 2017
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    That's pretty interesting read.
    I think the classiche certification seem, to an extend, to be a way to make money for ferrari.
    For a TR i agree with what you are saying but also to get classiche don't you have to have a stock exhaust on ? I thought most people change theirs, so if u dont have the original how do u pass?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  15. Marcel Massini

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    You don't.

    Marcel Massini
     
  16. of2worlds

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    #166 of2worlds, Aug 8, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    So this Ansa exhaust (image courtesy of Joe) was not a factory approved option?

    What if a part was dealer installed? Remember the Ferrari Boxer models (365 GT/4 BB) that were delivered from the factory without an exterior mirror???
    288 GTO Ansa megaphone exhaust detail.jpeg
    288 GTO Ansa megaphone exhaust closeup.jpeg
    18027.jpg
     
  17. TTR

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    #167 TTR, Aug 8, 2017
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    If I've understood correctly they're mainly still focusing on "major" components, not yet on trim details. Perhaps in the future... ?
     
  18. Marcel Massini

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    In the 60s and 70s almost all cars were delivered without installed rear view mirrors. They came in a box in the trunk or interior and the client and/or dealer decided if and where he wanted the mirrors installed or not. This has nothing to do with Classiche and the certification system.

    Marcel Massini
     
  19. miurasv

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    #169 miurasv, Aug 8, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Classiche are giving Red Book certification to cars that are not in their original mechanical specification as they last left the factory as demonstrated by 275 GTB 08117 which was originally a 3 carb but converted to 6 carbs (Weber 40 DCN 18) in the mid 1990s. However it is noted in the book that the original specification was 3 carb (Weber 40 DCZ 6).

    See Fantasy Junction pic attached of the relevant section of the Red Book.
    3to6carbclassiche paint.jpg
     
  20. Marcel Massini

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    #170 Marcel Massini, Aug 8, 2017
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    In the case of 08117 it is also interesting to note that the factory does have no records of the car as born with an alloy bodywork. However, the car does have an alloy bodywork. The records at the factory do not show that.

    08117 was serviced once at the Assistenza Clienti in Modena, on 3 September 1969, the odometer at the time showed 23'088 kms and 08117 was already with the 4th Italian owner.

    Marcel Massini
    009.jpg
     
  21. Rob Lay

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    Hmm, so they will allow exceptions now for all Ferraris that have had fuel systems changed? carb to FI? Control systems?
     
  22. TTR

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    So can one assume their cars don't get driven much either ?
     
  23. BIRA

    BIRA Formula Junior

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    My experience with more than 10 FC cars and ex cars is that they show flexibility when people are in good faith and it is not a major item or was an option at the time.
    For others like double exhaust on 308 GTB they ask for the original system.
    So they are not as flexible as some people wish, but not as stubborn as represented by some angry customers or would be customers.
    And in some cases they don't know as there are no archives to give the answer and we have to live with that. On both sides!
    At the end the FC book as MM mentioned many many times, does not replace a proper due diligence and need to know what you buy, its history and condition. You can do it yourself if you know something or are confident in your knowledge, or hire an expert or a group of, but this is different and complement what the factory has to say. But one does not replace the other.
     
  24. DWR46

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    All this is amazing. 40 DCN 18's are NOT correct for ANY Two Cam 275. They are a 4 Cam carburetor.
     
  25. 360gtracer

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    I've read this entire thread, and others like it in the past, and my understanding has always been that the red book "certification" certifies that the car is "original" (perhaps "correct" is a better word) in that it is how it left the factory, with matching number parts, and all other parts original or as supplied when new.

    How then does my Dad's former Ferrari (0313 EU), after being restored to an exceptionally high standard, receive the red book certification with an incorrectly numbered engine?

    The car has been sold several times since the restoration, but I wonder if it would have brought even more with the correct engine? But even that aside, if the factory will certify a car with a blatantly incorrect engine, it would seem to invalidate any value at all (real or imagined) in any red book certification.

    Do numbers *not* have to match in order to receive factory certification??

    Thanks.

    gp
     
  26. miurasv

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    #176 miurasv, Aug 9, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    ...but it seems that has now changed and to keep the Red Book Classiche status the car has to be maintained annually by the Authorised Classiche Workshops, not just checked for authentication. I spoke with Maranello Egham yesterday and they are still themselves vague on the new requirements but although the person I spoke to a little while back had thought that the check only could be performed by the Ferrari Classiche Authorised Workshops, and it could be maintained by a non authorised specialist such as DK Engineering etc, he is now of the opinion that only the Ferrari Classiche Authorised Workshops can perform the maintenance if the Red Book status is to be continued, which is in line with the new Classiche Rules that Marcel Massini posted as below.
    Classiche Rules.jpg
     
  27. miurasv

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    #177 miurasv, Aug 9, 2017
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    The Red Book does not certify the car "IS" original. It certifies that its specification/details are "AS" or "SAME AS" original. The engine has to be of the correct tipo with the correct tipo mumber. It does not have to have the actual original engine with the original engine number the car was made with to get a Red Book. It will have been noted in the Red Book that the engine in your father's car was not the original one in the car but matching the original specification of the original engine. See post 169 above.
     
  28. bernardo66

    bernardo66 Moderator
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    What about those that had all of their smog equipement removed.

    Back in the day, the Montreal dealer used to remove the systems, like on my 78 308GTS
     
  29. Marcel Massini

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    #179 Marcel Massini, Aug 9, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
    Mr. Parker:

    0313 EU:
    Unfortunately in about 1976 the original engine 0313 EU was out of the car and sold to Mr. L. in West Covina/CA. Engine 0313 EU was later re-sold for installation in another 250 Europa. Certain people in SoCal then restamped original engine 0313 EU with another number (0347 EU), thereby basically destroying the origins of engine 0313 EU.
    Engine "0313 EU NOW STAMPED 0347 EU" was then "upgraded" from a 3 liter into a 4.5 liter engine and installed in a 375 MM...........
    Which means that the original engine 0313 EU is really gone forever.
    I have photographic proof for all this.
    As you know well, car 0313 EU was totally restored in Switzerland between December 2009 and April 2012 and needed a proper type 250 Europa engine. The Swiss owner managed to buy sister 250 Europa engine 0331 EU (note difference between 0313 and 0331, not a typo!!). Car 0313 EU was factory certified 14 February 2013 with Certificate #3440 F and engine 0331 EU installed. The installation of engine 0331 EU in chassis 0313 EU was accepted by the Ferrari factory because of the identical type (despite being non-matching numbers now). Although huge efforts (incl. several trips to California!) were undertaken to obtain the original engine block 0313 EU (that had been restamped so badly) there was no chance to obtain the original engine block 0313 EU from the people in California.
    There is even another 250 Europa in South American ownership that unfortunately uses an incorrectly/fraudulently stamped engine "0313 EU" but that car does not have the original engine block 0313 EU.
    Naturally it is very frustrating that the original engine block 0313 EU is unobtainable but the factory agreed to certify the car due to CORRECT TYPE engine. Yes, 0313 EU is non-matching numbers these days.

    The certification is NOT about matching or non-matching numbers, it is only about the correct TYPE of engine.
    Yes, numbers do not have to match to receive factory certification.
    I personally don't like that and in the case of car 0313 EU I can tell you that several ten thousands of US$ have been invested for engine investigation and research. Without success. Very disappointing and frustrating. Certain Californians unwilling to assist and co-operate.

    I am convinced that if the original engine block 0313 EU were back in chassis 0313 EU the value of the entire car would be significantly higher now. Unfortunately some people in California ruined everything.

    Despite having the Factory Certification (red book) today 0313 EU is worth a bit less because of the non-matching engine. Just my 0.2 cents, of course.
    Maybe the market thinks different today. We shall see soon.

    Marcel Massini
     
  30. of2worlds

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    MM a good memory of the facts is priceless, you can't put a dollar figure on that sort of (history) knowledge!
     
  31. Lusso123

    Lusso123 Formula Junior
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    There is no substitute for experience and true knowledge.

    Thanks again to Marcel for his replies and sharing of detailed, fact based information.
     
  32. of2worlds

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    #182 of2worlds, Aug 9, 2017
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    So the GTB has gotten some play here but what about 10621 that went to Classiche for restoration? Color changed from born with Nocciola to something made up called Chianti Red that wasn't the factory paint plus umpteen different colors in between. Also the exterior mirror that Marcel mentioned earlier was in this case some really funky body colored design mounted on the front fender that Classiche had to work with! Was the restoration paint lacquer? Some people have noted modern paint doesn't match the color of the old lacquer formulas from the 50's 60's period. Born with paint color doesn't matter for a red book? When the restoration has the blessing of Classiche then all is good!
    Forgot to mention the new tin roof job. I bet that new roof is not a half inch lower on one side...
    10621 GTB 4 Chianti red full dvr side.jpg
    10621 GTB 4 int blk dvr.jpg
    10621 GTB 4 motori pass.jpg
    10621 GTB 4 Chianti red fender mirror.jpg
     
  33. BarryK

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    FWIW, I emailed ACI Palermo which the local organisation for the Targa Florio Ferrari Tribute asking the question about Classiche requirement next year, and got a reply - in the middle of August!

    All they say "Ferrari will make entrance requirements for 2018 Ferrari Tribute event. They will be known near to the event"

    So, not a categorical yes, but sounds like changes are underway. I imagine similar for Mille Miglia.

    But as you point out, for most cars, it won't matter because of the 20 year rule. But a smart move by gently introducing it now when it affects few cars, and then telling people down the line that it has been a requirement for years.
     
  34. Tom Roland

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    when you see that 0534M (to be auctioned at Maranello on September 9) is granted with the "red book" though described with engine 0470MD, i.e. a 1954 750 Sport (Tipo 105) while the 750 Monza it is originally had a Tipo 110 ?
    Thanks
     
  35. tifoso2728

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    If it goes through Classiche in Maranello, it's the same as being blessed by the Pope, I think . . .
     
  36. v8jet

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    Ferrari Spa is an EU company and as such bound by EU Law including the "anti-competition" laws.

    So how can it be in accordance with EU law for them to insist that you can only use their (limited) Classiche dealer network?

    The major car manufacturers lost that battle in 2003 when the so called "Block Exemption" rules were passed (for those outside of EU it effectively meant every car manufacturer would have to honour their new car warranty even if the car was serviced onside of their dealer network - as long as servicing was done to manufacturer's specification).

    It would be illegal for Ferrari to do this, and there are very hefty fines for breach of that particular law.

    Ferrari is a special company but even they can't say their terms and conditions override the law under which the company operates or does a lawyer (I'm not) want to correct me???
     
  37. The Strad

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    #187 The Strad, Aug 16, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
    I am not a lawyer, but I have some Ferrari Classiche/Certification experience. When my 328 became more than 20 years old, I had it certified by Ferrari and I got the Red Book a couple of months later as a result. A beautiful thing, that, in my mind, belonged/belongs to the car from then on. When I bought my CS, I sold the 328 with the Red Book included in the sale.

    Now, when Ferrari spa decides to organise gatherings like Tribute to Mille Miglia, to Targa Florio, Cavalcade, .... or it invites RM Sothebys for holding prestigious auctions, on which selected guests are bidding, then Ferrari spa has the right to set the rules. That is 100% logic.
    If (I say clearly IF!) Ferrari spa decides that only Classiche certified cars are eligible to the aforementioned events, I don't see where the problem is. If Ferrari spa's rules say that Classiche certified cars have to have an annual check at selected, Classiche authorized Dealers that THEY decide, that is their good right. Even if those Classiche authorized Dealers would be located in Jamaica. :D

    So, basically Ferrari spa sets the rules.
    Nobody is obliged to have his/her car certified.
    Nobody is obliged to take part in a Tribute 1000 Miglia,...
    Nobody is obliged to put his/her car for sale at a Ferrari/RM Sotheby's organised auction.
    And so on...

    That Ferrari spa is exploiting the situation is just a human perception. They protect their market, in their proper (very commercial) way. You go along, or you don't. The choice is still in the hands of the owners.
     
  38. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie
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    This is an incorrect assumption. You can fix/restore your car wherever you like, they aren't prohibiting anyone from doing that. But they will not allow non-licensed shops to issue recertification. That is probably well within their right.
     
  39. 360gtracer

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    Thank you *VERY* much Steven and Marcel for helping my understanding.

    Marcel - you have provided information regarding that engine of which we were unaware. Great to have that clarification and understanding. I'm sure my Dad will find this interesting. Thank you again for your contribution.

    George P.
     
  40. Marcel Massini

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    Pleasure, as always.

    Marcel Massini
     
  41. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula Junior

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    Perfectly stated. Precisely my point as well. I'm scheduled to have my car certified in a few weeks.


     
  42. Rory J

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    There seem to be many inconsistencies in the Classiche program. At the 7oth anniversary gathering in Maranello this past weekend (in which I was told all participating Ferraris have passed through Classiche certification), there were several incorrect items. For example, one Boxer was fitted with a modern Ferrari navigation display and one Dino had an incorrect Vitaloni Californian mirror. Even the Dino 246 GTS in the Maranello museum had a Cavallino badge on the rear!
     
  43. TTR

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    Please see post #167
    From I've observed from sidelines, if 100% OE correctness was expected or mandatory, probably over 90% of already certified cars wouldn't qualify, most even likely not by a long shot.
     

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