How far is too far for you when it comes to straying from original specs?

Original or bust.

Drives me nuts when I see cars modified, even just shields on the sides when they were not born there.

They should be kept the original color. But since there are no penalties for changing colors at concours events so people feel free to take liberties.

Exceptions are race cars that were modified by the factory in their prime.

But as a capitalist owners are free to do what they like with their property.

 

I agree with this.
It's much harder to keep a car original than it is to modify it, when I see a modified car I tend to think the owner took the easy way out...
A colour change is OK, but a lot of the time the charm of an older car is having it in the style it was delivered in, so a "modern" colour on an old car is just tacky.
Would never do a rebody, you'll end up with something that's neither what it was, or what it's trying to be.
I think invisible modifications, (that are reversible), are ok, for example electronic ignition, although I've resisted the urge to do it on my cars as I found that a properly set-up oem system works just fine.
M

 

I feel that no changes whatsoever should be make on old cars with very limited
production. I have a 1967 330GT. The made only about 455 of these. I have a
later version with an two mount engine of which they made maybe 250. I see
no reason to change the car except to make if more original --- hoses, clamps,
whatever. The original distributor and such work fine --- they were designed for
the motor, and so on.

I also have a 1984 308 GV. It handles very nicely but is under powered. They
made about 4000 of these --- more that 10 times the number of the late
330 GT's. I would never change the appearance of this car very much. I did
move the front and rear bumpers in a little because the US cars had really ugly
bumpers to satisfy the US standards. Not moved as much as on European cars and not
so much that it is very obvious except to an expert. I did remove the cat. converter
on the exhaust. If the engine broke, I would modify it to produce a little more
power, maybe 1/3 more, but I would never modify the appearance of the engine
such as painting the heads red. Since so many of these cars were made, I do not
feel bad if small changes are made on them.

I just don't care about Ferraris made after 2000. They made so many of these that they
are just ordinary cars but with more power than is needed. You can buy a carbon fiber
briefcase instead.

 

I know you guys like "original" but lets face it -- points and condensors are out --electronic ignition is in.

And, why should the car overheat when there are electric fans to take care of the problems they didn't worry about in the 1960's?

If you want a non-driving museum piece -- great. But if you really want to drive it do you have to suffer as well with the headaches?

 

The voice of reason...

 

I agree that electronic ignition eliminates the need to replace points from time to time and that's a benefit.
I've never had a problem with overheating in any of my older Ferraris, if that happens something is not right and a more powerful fan is just masking the problem. The cars didn't overheat when they were new.

M

 

To answer OPs question, I feel "it's your property, you can do as you please", but...

... as a life long vintage car enthusiast since my early teens and having been involved with them in one form or another almost daily for past 35-40 years I strongly disagree with above (nonsense?).

IMO, adding on or converting to modern improvements to most vintage cars is more often than not just an uneducated approach to compensate for an underlying problems which, if properly sorted, would eliminate the need for such compensation. It seems many mechanics/techs(?) & shops out there also favor this as it often provides them the easiest way to sell you an apparent quick-fix and get you out the door

In most cases and regardless of its vintage, if any car overheats, it's usually due to some problem in its cooling system and slapping on an aftermarket fan or two can easily provide immediate relief, but will not fix the cause of the problem.

Once properly set, how many miles (or years) most of you think it takes to wear out the points ignition in your vintage cars ? I have some that were set decades and tens of thousands of miles go and other than periodical checking and lobe lubing every few years seem to be working just fine without problems.

For past almost 40 years I've been able to accumulate several hundred thousand miles, including many trips crisscrossing the continental U.S. with variety of vintage cars from early '30's to early '70's and almost all without any modern technology improvements other than occasional use of radial tires on some 50's/60's cars and have derived immense driving pleasure from almost every occasion, including those involving roadside repairs in one form or another.

I'm currently preparing an 85 year old car with 65 year old running gear & technology (6-volts w/generator, bias ply tires w/tubes, points ignition, etc, but NO a/c, power assisted anything or even a Radio) for a two week, 2500+ mile road trip which will include passing thru Mojave Desert (twice) and climbing thru mountain passes at 10,000+ ft. altitude, etc. later this summer and looking forward to this highly anticipated vacation, as I expect the car to provide more than enough real driving pleasure to make it worth awhile experience and everything else will be just icing on that cake.

I can't even remember how many (thousands or more ?) times I've asked from people whom I often consider just victims of SEMA approved mass-marketing "Now that you've decked out your vintage car with every latest and greatest improvement for brakes, chassis, lighting & running gear from mail order or internet catalogs, how much or often do you drive it ?" and usually get a blank or horrified stare accompanied by some panic sounding response like "Oh no, I only drive to local C&C or cruise night once or twice a month and for out-of-town events or shows I got this truck and trailer combo..."

OTOH, I personally find ALL modern cars, regardless of make or model, just utterly boring and without any feel of real driving experience. They all seem just too refined and removed, almost virtual, but they sure seem provide all the comfort and conveniences pu**ies of the world expect from their transportation in todays world.
And talk about headaches, just few weeks ago I bought a brand new "shop truck" and it's a second in a row (differend brand though) that needed to go back to dealer for some severe warranty repairs due to major mechanical manufacturing defects popping up after few hundered miles !!! By manufacturers that have been producing motor vehicles for over 100 years !!! So much for modern convenience and reliability.

Rant over.

 

The Marelli distributors used in vintage Ferraris are beautifully made mechanical wonders.
The will function perfectly for years and thousands of miles once set up correctly.

Would you take a vintage Patek Philippe watch, gut it and put a modern quartz movement inside because it's better?

The electronic ignitions also fail much more often than the old points and condensers. I replace ECU's all day long on modern Ferrari's. I have only had to ever replace three faulty ignition coils and one bad condenser in my entire 40 years of working on cars.

 

Step one: Check title to see if your name is on it.

Step two: Do whatever you want to do. It's your car. If everybody else wants you to be a "custodian," I suggest you open one of those gofundme things.

 

As you probably know, one of the big differences is the size of the tires today. For me, I get a lot more feedback from "skinny" tires than the big fat monsters we have today. Maybe that's just me.

 

+1
While I'm also a vintage Hot Rodder with late-40's/early-50's running gear in a early-30's car, I love the P. P. reference. Perfectly summarizes my sentiment on most aspects of aftermarket "improvements". Thanks for the chuckle, Mr. Brown.

 

Paint is maintence. Ok to re-paint the car when the time comes but you shouldn't change the color. I hate it when I am looking for a black car or some unusual color and I find a black car that looks good but only to discover the car was born silver. I didn't find a black car, I found a silver car painted black. Half the fun of getting the color you want is finding it in the condition you seek. Otherwise you may as well just go with replicas.

Modernizing vintage cars takes out all of the charm. Yes, I have been standing on the side of the road waiting for a flatbed more times in my life than I can count, especially with all of the British stuff I have owned, but I never got mad, I just accepted it as part of the adventure of ownership. If you can't handle that then vintage cars probably are not for you.

I used to own a Daytona, I could not imagine installing power steering or changing a thing on it.

If it's bolt on and bolt off fine, but once you have to drill a hole you are molesting the car.

I was once charged with over seeing a fancy stereo install into my friend's '67 L-89 Corvette. We did it without drilling one new hole. We swapped out the back compartment lid for a new one and mounted everything to it so it was all removable. Saved the original.

If someone wants to chop a 250 GTO and make a convertible that's their business, but to me the car is not worth 2 cents after that.

 

A Ferrari should be as Ferrari made it.

 

I feel that desiring to add a Power Steering or other similar "creature comforts" to Daytona or any vintage vehicle not really designed/intended with such in mind should be clue the car may not be right for that person or they are not planning to use it for what it was designed for, i.e. Daytona or any other GT cars are/were intended for Grand Touring (= Long Distance Leisure Travel), not commuting in suburbia, making me think perhaps they're just owning one for investment or status purposes. Not that there's anything wrong with it, but I personally have hard time taking them seriously as "real vintage car guys" and often lump them to same category with those "low mileage sissies"(?), whom I never quite understood either.

But to each his/her own, I guess and who am I to judge as I've been spending good part of yesterday and this morning "improving" poor quality OE craftsmanship found on perhaps the last NOS U.S. Daytona exhaust header set in the world, instead attempting of install them "as built".

 

My opinion for whatever its worth...

* 1) Colours.
If the car still has the original paint, so long as it was in OK or better condition, I think I would leave it. However, if it was really beat up, I think I'd find another car. In so far as repainting, I think its more than color. Will you paint it using the same oil based paints from the era? I think many repaints these days are with water based paints and clear coats. I think this gives off a different look. I would not judge someone else, but in my case, I would try to stick to the factory color palette of the era. Its much the same for the interior in my opinion. I think you could get it re appointed but I'd keep it to the same patterns, styles, colors as originally offered. If there was something that was not a part as originally specced, but could have been found on the car back in the era, I suppose its ok. An example that occurs to me is the side mirror. I don't think Ferrari fitted side mirrors on these cars (I could be wrong) but I think dealers did add them for demanding clients.


* 2) Mechanical modifications.
I would leave it as factory, unless you could make the improvement "behind the scenes" so to speak. Things you wouldn't see, if you can make them better, I think that's ok. But I wouldn't want to open the hood and see completely different parts. One place I would make a distinction is with tires. I know many people put the original spec tires on these cars, but there are tires made with more modern processes that are made for vintage cars. They have the same (or at least similar) dampening characteristics, but they are just better tires. I think if you are going to be doing any real driving, you might as well have the benefits of better tires. However, I completely respect those who want to drive it the way it always was. I would also have a set of the original spec tires if I were to show the car. I also think it really depends on whether the car is more of a driver or a collector. I think most of these cars are now in the realm of collectors- even the ones that were drivers. But that's just my opinion.

* 3) Body modifications.
I suppose I answered it with the mirror above- but otherwise, I say no. I think some people go with different wheels, for example on the 275 many people fit wire wheels because they either like the look better (I do) or they find the original wheels difficult to obtain.

* 4) Rebody
No way! Unless it was done by the factory years ago. I think there are some cars that were in accidents and then went back to the factory and the owners asked for a change to this or that look. For me, that's fine. I guess its all where you draw the line.

 

If you drive one of these old beaters, you better invest in a racing harness. A crash may still kill you, just like it did in the old days, but at least you have a chance. Also you should replace every piece of rubber and hose you can find. A fire is not a lot of fun.

 

My 1966 330 has two distributors. Each distributor has two points and a cam with only three
lobes. That is, each distributor is effectively two distributors. So the 12 cylinder engine
has effectively four distributors, one for only three cylinders. Once they are properly
set up, they run for a very long time with no problem. An electronic ignition would be
no improvement whatsoever. I have heard that Dinos have some igniton problems.
But it is a mistake to extrapolate from six to more cylinders.

My 1966 330 had two electric fans. Two owners back replaced them with with more powerful
308 electric fans. The fans are tucked away in front of the radiator and are hard to see.
The engine never overheats. Only an expert looking out for the fans would notice them.
I got no points deducted for these fans in a FCA Concours. I think that such subtle
but needed changes should be made.

If you want a modern car, go out and get one.

If you want a Ferrari, they were made or designed in the era when Enzo was alive.

If you want a modern Fiat spelled somewhat differently, go out and get one.

 

P.S: My 330GT has power steering. I wish that I did not. But I will not change it.

 

well said.

john

 

Why not? You can always put it back on. Personally, if I wanted to paint my car a different color, I'd do it. If a purist later wants to paint back, he can. I don't get this museum curator attitude. It's a car for crying out loud. If you want to put it on display in a "tree museum" be my guest. But if you want drive it, do what you like. I've retrofitted a couple of old Porsches with electronic ignition, and the difference was notable. The engine ran much smoother, how could it not?

I draw the line at chopping up cars, e.g., making a GTO out of a GTE. Doing anything that cannot be reversed crosses the line. But other than that, it's your car. Do what you want to do.

The other exception is a low mileage original car. Around 2000, I brought a 1973.5 911T that had less than 15k original miles on it. I quickly sold it because I couldn't stand to drive it. Every time I drove it, the car got another nick. (I like to drive on country back roads.) So I passed it on to someone else. Moreover, if I ever buy another pre-1975 911, which is unlikely, I'll probably buy a beater and make an outlaw out of it. I would have no intention of restoring it.

 

Here's another view point to consider:
Every modern, non-OEM or non-period "improvement" is a step away from authentic vintage experience and some steps take you further than others... Is that the point ?
People often claim they want an old/vintage car(s) to enjoy, but the desire to "modernize" it/them seem to suggest opposite.
Go figure...?

Also, I know I'm in minority on this, but here's another "thing" I don't get:
Huge amounts of time, effort & money is often afforded/spent/wasted(?) on cars to have some latest & greatest sound system added, to environment not really designed for such and where any extra distraction from intended purpose (DRIVING !!!) is adding to chances for accident. Why ?
Is that car offering such a boring/unexciting driving experience, it requires additional, unrelated stimulation to keep it interesting, not to mention dangerous ?
This of course is even more ironic (perhaps moronic ?) when done to vintage cars that rarely, if ever actually get driven.

Then again, there are lots of things in this life/world I fail to understand, no matter much logic I try to apply....
... or perhaps that's why ?