How is your P4 knowledge?

My experience at scrutineering at LM is just very basic. They dont look at numbers. That is done at the "paperwork dept" with the paper entry docs, not a physical look. the scrutineering is just a "show" very basic stuff. i.e. check if the tow hook fist, how much fuel does it hold. no numbers....

MM's, comments on the off premises inspections is correct. The actual "stamping"

was usually done at the point of assembly. i.e, the factory. Swaters has good records on his computor with all the numbers, it would be good to check his records of his P4.


Have fun with this.

 

I don't personally own a copy of 'Ferrari in Camera' by Doug Nye and the late Geoff Goddard, but I think this may actually have been the photo Nathan was referring to - not the B&W one which I uploaded in my post #44. It was sent to me by another person who didn't know the source. Apologies for any possible unintended breach of Doug Nye's copyright.

Art. Note also the spare trumpets on the roof of the car, and ....

The (removed) cold air boxes too ....

AND .... the Carello decal, which was one of Wouter's two questions that started this thread.
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Their Team Manager did tell me that he was aware of chassis plates being switched to match Carnets but in this case wouldn't their Carnet have been for 0850?

See page 104: http://www.glickenhaus.com/jim/project.pdf


Do you remember the P 4 motor's being stamped with the chassis #'s as well?

Best

 

Very Cool! (In or out? ) Any idea what car that is/When/Where??

Best

 

I'd presume going back in (to #0860 ?) and taken a few minutes after the B&W one in my post #44 .... Le Mans '67.

 

Makes sense.

Best

 

Bet you wish you hadn't said that. Just to throw another spanner in the works - In the book 'Garage Francorchamps' written by Rogliatti with assistance from Jacques Swaters it lists #24 as 0856 - (so even Swaters didn't know that Ferrari had swapped his car - or maybe this book wasn't been researched properly?)
Nathan

 

Said book is more than 15 years old now........and like mine, contains errors.
Marcel Massini

 

But why would they? 0856 wasn't his 0850* was and Ferrari was simply providing a replacement as 0850* wasn't repaired yet. Why would he have cared if he got 0856 or 0858? Jay is saying 0856 and 0858's chassis plates/identities were swapped by Ferrari. The Ferrari records say 0858 was the 24 car which would indicate they were and even though the ACO documents say that the 24 car had motor # 0856 but Ferrari could have switched both or bamboozled the Scrutineers but why? What would the switch accomplish? IMO it's more logical that even though the Ferrari records say the 24 Car was 0858 they are wrong. I also have an original timing/result/prize money document that may have chassis #'s but as Jay points out if the chassis plates and engines were swapped or the Scrutineers bamboozled 0856 could have been the #21 Car wearing 0858's chassis plate.

The question remains why would Ferrari swap these two car's identities???

* PS correction I had written 0848

 

Jim. Slight correction ....
0850 was the Ecurie Francorchamps 412P, (which Mairesse had crashed heavily at Spa, and couldn't be re-built in time for Le Mans).
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Sorry yes 0850. (412P)

 

Marcel
You mean we've got the same version?
Nathan

 

Twice, Jim. Another quick edit required.

 

As Marcel (and others) is always quick to point out, there are a number of errors on 'Barchetta' ....

Including a glaring one against their entry for #0850 for the 1967 Spa 1000 KMs:

http://www.barchetta.cc/english/All.Ferraris/Detail/0850.412P.htm

67/may/01 dnf 1000km Spa Mike Parkes/Scarfiotti #11

Funnily enough, those are the drivers of the the factory team #9 330P4 (previously thought to be #0858, but in all likelihood - #0856).

 

My book "Ferrari by Vignale" was also published by Giorgio Nada Editore of Milan, like the "Ecurie Garage Francorchamps" book of Rogliatti. Although my book was ready for printing one year before already (1991), Nada delayed it by at least one year, because he first wanted to publish the Francorchamps book (for the September 1992 "FF40" meeting in Brussels). After the Francorchamps book was printed, my Vignale book was done. What I also meant to say is that my own books "250 LM" or "Ferrari by Vignale", etc. also contain several errors.
Marcel Massini

 

Not wishing to 'throw another spanner in the works'. Just thinking aloud, you understand ….

But forgetting, for the moment, what has been stated in previous posts, with regards to factory records, 0856 vs 0858 etc. ….

If 0856 was the 2nd-placed #24 Daytona 24 Hours car; the #21 car used for the Le Mans Test Days; and the #3 Monza 1000 KMs winner (all previously undisputed),

…. And it now seems likely that it was also the 5th Placed #9 Spa 1000 Kms car ….

Why, engine swaps aside, would the factory have loaned the newer car 0858, with lower track mileage, to Ecurie Francorchamps, for the Le Mans 24 Hours - in preference to 0856, which would have been rather more 'tired' ?

After the '65 Le Mans win by N.A.R.T., Ferrari would appear to have made a concsious decision to sell 'lower-powered' or obsolete versions to their customer teams – hence the 412P.

…. And of course with 'Wild Willy' Mairesse driving, there was always the possibility the car might end up getting ‘bent’.
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Nope. Definately no MO-33 or MO-55 used Wouter. Either MO-36 or MO-53. Suggest you get yourself a stronger magnifying glass.

 

Ah. Bent metal. Damaged chassis tubes. Bet that left a mark. Has anyone examined the LT nose chassis tubes of 0856 (LS's Car) to see if there's a trace of that?

 

Nope. Even in this re-sized version, it's still definately PROVA MO-53, Wouter.

(P.S. At this stage I haven't begun to re-caption my photos, as yet).
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Surely this would be one of the constants between the cars?

Pete

 

mr. Massini, I have to compliment you on this publication. Got it in 1992/93, and still one of my favourite books!
(now back to the P4,s)