How will history judge and value the F12 vs. 812 super fast?

for what its worth my instinct tells me f12>812, 458>488. I have no good reasons other than I feel like something has been lost with the latest cars. In my eyes they have been Bangled - that's the term that comes to mind. Then there was product proliferation etc....seems to be the same track. But really who cares - you drive your front engine 12s so much it doesn't matter.

 

RACE is not Ferrari as I have said. PF is a necessity and the excuse about advanced aero is spin/marketing as opposed to admitting defeat. LdM I would bet, agrees, they are off course visually.

As with the Lusso (admittedly less important stylistically to the brand than others) same goes for La CorViper (812) and now Portofino. If anything the Portofino is better as it borrows from the F12 a bit, yet it's still a photoshop hodge podge of styles and ideas glued together.

The TDF's styling works because it's a car a teenager should draw. Muscle car. Youthful. Perfect.

 

For any driving experience comparison between the F12 B and the 812 right now the main sources we have available are some drive tests made by several well-known car magazines and journalists. On the drive laps done at Fiorano and also on the roads around Maranello, one of the main features that more or less is mentioned by everyone is the rear wheels steering system of the 812. There is a certain unanimity that it enables the 812 to curve faster than the F12B and with more grip. In respect to the innovative electric power steering of the 812 in general testers liked it and mentioned that it feels pretty natural. However from the various opinions I read I didn’t conclude that the 812 steering feeling is better than the one of the F12B. Finally and as expected, the 812 is more explosive than the F12B at high revs and the gear-box ratios are also slightly different.

In regard to how the F12B and the 812 compare between them in terms of aesthetics it´s easier to judge on our own because there are already a good number of pictures and videos available and also a group of people who have seen the 812 alive. To put it very simple, IMO the F12B is a car you can have in any colour and look at from any angle and you never disappointed. Unfortunately the same can’t be said about the 812.

 

This question recalls, for me, the progression from 550 ->575. I prefer the 550 and the F12. Just based on looks. I would still choose the 575 and 812 over the competition, but I guess I just usually tend to go for the more straightforward design.

I think the last PF front engine V12 from Ferrari, that matters to those of us who like to obsess over such things. I suspect the market place won't be quite as critical. But this was one of my reasons I got an F12. Im driving it today!

 

You can't compare to 458/488, former was widely loved and acclaimed latter main focus is on emissions unlike the 812.

812 is better in every area, possibly for frequent use better than a Tdf. Agree looks are not elegant.

You wonder who signs these things off, how did the rear of the original Cali ever get signed off its baffling.

F12 lovely and seems to be more relatively cherished than 599 which I suspect is due to much superior gearbox.

Recall 599 in UK trading at a premium for 24 months, F12 did not, 812 certainly will, tells you a bit. Economic cycles aside.

 

I also recall just giving some balance that the "Cervix" rear styling of the F12 B was hated so saying its better from every angle.....

Imagine F12 with GTC rear and that's a great looking car.

 

GTC rear? No way! The single red rearlight are just spot on...

In my eyes...
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Totally agree.

Design integrity says that a modern car doesn't "need" 4 lights when 2 can do the work ... so to add them is only done as a nod to the past.

Yet when the seats are made by Lear, and the overhung spoiler is very modern (and ubiquitous) the addition of 4 lights is an integrity breech. TOO MANY IDEAS AT ONCE!

No elegance, no integrity. I miss PF.

 

I think it will depend on whether the 812 is the last pure/unassisted V12 Ferrari (either through boost charging or hybridization).

 

I wasn't 100% sure on the F12 rear at first either. But with extended exposure, it all works. I think this is one of many things I admire about the designers- they have to be so far ahead. We can just take our time to admire things.

I think the problem for the 599 was the car was a bit too big and the electronics not quite advanced enough. However, if you spent time with the car, there were many charms and it is a really wonderful car. By the time of the F12, they had advanced everything to the point that they really need to be. The car as a whole gels much better than with the 599.

Will the 812 represent the same kind of gap from the F12? A bit unfair as the F12 is a whole new platform and the 812 is a more advanced version. However, I suspect while the 812 will feel newer and more in every way than the F12, it won't be quite as big a change.

My gut feeling is the 812 will be the last unassisted V12 production from Ferrari. Mr. Marchionne has said going forward from something like 2019 all V12s will get some form of hybrid assist.

I really don't have a problem with this because we've seen with the LaFerrari that this setup can produce really spectacular results.

 

A great design is ALWAYS like this. It takes a little time to appreciate.

Same for great music, or art of any kind.


This is why the new designs are a sure fail, far too exciting at first. The result of trying too hard to tick the marketing boxes.

 

The F12 looks much much better than the 812. The 812 is just too much. I am not saying it's ugly but it's not pretty either and certainly not classy.

Design is probably one of the most important factor when it comes to value. See dino vs boxer. Almost 2 times more Dinos. Dinos much slower. Dino V6 vs 12 Cyl and yet Dinos are 150% to 200% of Boxer value.

 

How will they be judged against each other? I have yet to see a review of the 812 where a comment similar to "whether you like the looks or not..." wasn't uttered even by the most respected reviewers. Its just a fact that the 812 is not clicking the 'beautiful' description by the public compared to the F12 which is revered as a high water mark in the modern PF/Ferrari V12 production sports car.

How will they be valued? Like all other non LE's - condition, spec and mileage and pretty much in that order.

 

... so probably you will like the gtc4 soon !!

 

Funny. As a professional artist I have acquired taste that is beyond the hype and any instant gratification. I look at the Lusso in 10 years right now. Not interested.

 

F12 looks dated compared to the 812. There actually isn't that much carry over and if you asked a layperson than they would probably not see any connection between the two. This was probably a calculated decision rather an accident so it had to push the boundaries of the f12 silhouette given today's technology. It's different stylistically and looks more like the 275 compared to the 250 as opposed to the 550 to the 575. I think history has a place for both and it will come down to personal preference which one future buyers will value more.

 

I wasn't talking about the 4 or 2 rear lights on F12/FF to 812 but to the lack of cervix and sharper back.

Each to own. All of them are lovely, I have a new GTC and dont rate any of the modern 4 seaters looks wise (designed to achieve compromise). Its quite refreshing owning things and not being blinded.

Brian you are very funny.

 

Oh how we all long for such enduring good taste unswayed by current fads.

I always thought the art market total BS.

 

+1. Well said.

 

Production numbers will have some impact regardless of whether the F12 is more appealing than the 812. Just look at the 512M vs Testarossa. The 512M is pig-ugly in many people's opinion and still commands a big premium because of the production run was only 500 cars - wasn't a limited edition etc, but ended up with a small run as it was a stop gap before the all new 550.

 

Good point BarryK about production numbers. For the sake of discussion I would be willing to say both F12 and 812 production numbers would be about equal.

I agree with you that the 812 does look newer and that this is of course planned. I also think it shows how talented the designers at Ferrari really are. They have the same hard points (where panels need to attach etc) and they have a design that does look quite a bit different. I believe the roof line is different too.

To my eyes the 812 is more Daytona, whereas the F12 is more 275 and even has some 250 Lusso in it (shark nose front, Kamm tail). The thing I don't love on the Daytona is the roofline (just a little bit too high to my eyes) and I have the same issue with the 812.

I think the best way to judge these designs is with hindsight and thus, right now we will see the 812 as the new one, and that usually means the prior car will look like the old one. But over time I think we will get a better perspective.

I do not think the F12 looks dated at all, but yes, the 812 is more aggressive and more "new" looking.

Time will tell. In the mean time I look forward to the journey and the discussion with all of you! Some really fascinating thoughts and opinions here!

 

Both be zillions !