Huracan LP640 Performante

Discussion in 'LamborghiniChat.com' started by Ferrari SS, Oct 27, 2016.

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  1. plastique999

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    Saw that...of course the fast lap had many other variables as Marco pointed out - tires, uprated stiffer suspension mechanical grip, lighter weight and of course the 750% increase in downforce with the aero vectoring.
    I was simply pointing out the importance of lighter weight (compared to 918) and what significance it plays in cornering speed.
    We are essentially saying the same thing.
    My point, however, is that people don't understand how all these factors come into play and very much allow the car to be that fast on the Ring. It is very believable in my eyes.


    Sent from my 16M
     
  2. Jo Sta7

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    You know, funny enough, I believe the Huracans lap much more than I believe the time for the SV. It's just too dang heavy.
     
  3. boxerman

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    Yep if youre interested in one lap, a 918 is ineteresting, but that just showboating.
    If you go to the track, and use your car on track, you drive multiple laps. No lardy car will hold up for multiple laps, even if the brakes can be made to last the tires wont.

    Its the issue with so many magazine lap tests, its one fastest lap. If w ehad 10 lap average speeds with time for last lap I'll bet the pecking order wpuld be quite different.

    The Performante shows in many ways the way to go, which has always been the way to go. A very well devloped chasis lighter weight aero and a NA engine. Serioulsy 700 or 8000 or whaever hp does not make a car faster on track in any serious contest, especialy if there is a big weight penalty, but it does make it faster on paper.
     
  4. 95spiderman

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    What does performante weigh? Im sure its north of 3500 lbs. What makes you think it can lap all day long?
     
  5. Jo Sta7

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    Have you done a lot of track days? I'm not trying to be condescending. Most cars require a cool down. Also, when I've done laps at a track, I get out after a lap or two and look at the data to see if there is anywhere I can improve my times. Plus the 'Ring is a massive lap. longer and more complex than basically anywhere else. I don't know if there as many drivers (maybe pros) who could push the car to the max for more than 1 lap without a cool down just to refocus and look at the data.

    Now, do I like that the Huracan P did so well without being a complicated hybrid, yes of course!
     
  6. Jo Sta7

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    Probably 3,400 lbs in Europe and 3,500 lbs in USA.
     
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  8. Jo Sta7

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  9. 95spiderman

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    im with cvk on that and on jim g idea of a manufacturer ring test (which will never happen)
     
  10. kingjr9000

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    #159 kingjr9000, Mar 8, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  11. boxerman

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    #160 boxerman, Mar 8, 2017
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    Yeah probably 15-20 days on track per year, these vary from 5 X 30 mins to 5X40 mins, tracks are anything from LRP to Plamer to WGI to Monticello, so from tight 1.7 miles to 2.4 miles. Most any serious track cars can run 10-15 laps of say watkins glenn at a sustained near full tilt or full tilt pace, the limiting factors usualy being tires, and more than anything else tires are a function of weight, secondarily being driving style.. A cool down lap to me comes at the end of say 10-15 laps at full tilt and is done to bring the machineary down to a more stable temp before shutting off and not because the car is fading. For example to allow the brakes rotors to cool so you dont boil fliud in the calipers when you shut down and there is no more coolign air, same with the motor to avoid hot spots.

    Yes its true that with rare exceptions most out the box cars cant sustain their full tilt pace on track, even without worrying about tires. Even those that can need suitable pads(can be street track) and suitable brake fluid. But many porches can mechanicaly sustain full pace, certainly Gt3s and Gt4s can, new Z06 reportedly cannot but grand sports can very well and pretty much any lotus can. Reputedly the last camaro z28 ran into temp issues before 10 laps and its weight certainly smoked tires really quickly. GT350Rs mechanical can sustain pace.

    If you have to run light cool down laps every two or even 3-5 laps I would say your car is not really "track spec" even if it is capable of doing a few laps at speed and therein lays the problem. Many car comapnies say their cars are designed for the track becauise they can turn a few fast laps and magazines love to quote fastest lap time. But if cars are sold as track capable as many are, then its more relevant and inetresting to know what their sustained pace is over 10 laps and pace on lap 10. If nothing else this would lead to more suitably devloped cars for those who actualy do take them to the track.

    Nurbering is what 17 miles around. WGI is i think 2.4 miles so 10 laps of WGI is already more than 1 lap of nurbering and probably much harder on car too as nurbering has many fast flowing sections. How many sustained lap[s can a 918 do of WGI or any number of other tracks, and if it cant do too many because it runs out of battery or its weight smokes the tires, then to me its just a gimick car, too fast for the street and not really trackable despite its single fast lap. Also lots of people do multiple laps at nurbering.
     
  12. Jo Sta7

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    At least you know what you're talking about and this isn't a discussion with a keyboard warrior. I don't think I'd call the 918/P1/Laf gimmick cars. They're first generation. But they were necessary to show us a possible way forward.
     
  13. boxerman

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    #162 boxerman, Mar 8, 2017
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    Not sure they are the way forwards, at least not for a long time. Formula E is more interesting in developing the bat tech for goign forwards.

    To me 918 laf andfP1 is just application of tech because they could, it sounded green and would post some great paper numbers even if only for short bursts. So yes its a possible way forwards, but sold as ultimate performance now. A BMW I8 does the same tech demo job of showing the way forwards without pretending to be ultimate performance

    The Laf is ineteresting because its using battery power to assist a highly tuned motor to fill in the Tq deficit from such a tune, so with futuire lighter batteries could be the way to go. But all these cars are too heavy, and depelete batteries and that negates sustained laptimes. .
     
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  15. boxerman

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    Listed DRY weight for the performante is 3047 lbs. Since wet weight is actualy what happens on planet earth when a car moves under its own power, seems like somewhere maybe below 3300lbs. Certainly not heavy, but not really light either.

    Still it seems that of the current crop of supercars, in the +200-1mill range if you go to the track with your street car the performante is the one to have, not just because of the numbers, but also becauise its NA and reputedly is great to drive. In other words the perfromante embodies what made many ferrari street cars great and lambo is not playing second fiddle here..

    Below that price threshold the Gt3 and below that vette grand sport cayman Gt4, and exige (in europe), below that Gt350R and then various miata. Somewhere in there probably also fits a BMW M2 and even a mini.
     
  16. 09Scuderia

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    +1 to Boxerman. Excellent post.
     
  17. Jo Sta7

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    There are members of this forum who do track their 918/P1 regularly though and they enjoy it. I hear what you're saying I just thinking as long as you allow for a cool down lap every few laps they very enjoyable.
     
  18. TeamF1Jr

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  19. TheMayor

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    LOL! I think we would all assume it is fake!
     
  20. TheMayor

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    This is a big improvement over the standard version visually.

    What I like is they are not going the ways of others with turbos, battery powered hybrid stuff that breaks, and covering up the engine so you can't see it.

    And, it has innovative aero but it doesn't damage the styling or make it look like a Hot Wheels.
     
  21. 95spiderman

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  22. classic308

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    Excellent work by Lamborghini. The ALA system is genius.
     
  23. kingjr9000

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    This is glorious! I wonder what kind of flak Misha and BTG will get from this incident.
     
  24. Jo Sta7

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    Lambo is def showing that cars don't need more than 600 hp to be amazing on track. The stability and traction is the reason this car put up such an incredible lap time.
     
  25. 95spiderman

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    I know what you mean but it does have more than 600 hp though. 650ish I think
     
  26. Jo Sta7

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    Close enough man lol. Point is you don't need 900 or some crazy amount.
     
  27. 95spiderman

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    remember how crazy it was when amg had 600 hp and 700 tq? that was maybe less than 10 yrs ago. now 600 is considered restrained. progress, I guess
     
  28. plastique999

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    You had me at Exige ❤️
    How's your V6 Exige running? I'd love to see it's time around the Nurburgring, or better yet the 311!

    Boxer, I know you and I are die hard Lotus drivers...that's what got me so interested in the Perfomante - it's power to weight demonstration at the Ring.
    I've never been a fan of huge HP on track and always liked momentum cars...Elise, Spec Racer Ford, etc. These days cars have too much HP to control on the track. Heck, I'd have trouble using 7-8/10's of the CGT on track.
    But the Perfomante may be the perfect recipe for a high HP, light car, with suspension, aero and tires to really turn some fast lap times. Super excited to take it on track!




    Sent from my 16M
     
  29. 95spiderman

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    I would like to see a comparison of performante and viper extreme. So many similarities with hp, weight, aero. Yes lambo is awd and dct but theyre still basically american vs European solutions to same question.
     
  30. LamboLover

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    Fairly coincidental that the 2 men who have the most doubt about the Huracan's time are also the 2 men with most interest in holding said record.

    I'm sorry, I think there's more than just skepticism on their part.
     
  31. boxerman

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    #180 boxerman, Mar 9, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2017
    Its winter so the exige has been parked since Nov. Did 800 miles on track sept oct last year, the first 500 were running in the motor. So far 6 secs per lap quicker than the elise. Next month we will sort the suspension alignment.

    On your high too hp not being great on track I can say that the lowly 360hp in the exige is just too much in 2nd and 3rd gear as in you really have to make sure you dont overcook any short straights. Brakes are epic and I can brake far later than in the elise from a much higher speed. So its a function of getting my skills up to the level of the car and recalibrating the brain.

    For us non professionals, yes you can be faster in a faster car, but are you able to drive the car anyhwere near what it can do. There is always going to be faster car on track like radical rxc, so for us its about fun and skills development, often doing far more with less than someone else has. To put this in eprspective, the exige can hunt down a z06 vette in 5 laps and while a new Gt3 Rs should blow it away, those out there so far have not. When compared to a 250K(spent) fully tracked suspesnion, stripped 2700lbs winged, cambered, braked etc 400hp pure track cayman the difference is going to be the driver.

    Unlike many others I dont think the Miata is always the answer. They are great fun cars, and its true that someone truly fast in a miata is probably driving at a higher skill level, the best are the fastest miata drivers. But we all also love a great motor and all types of other bits, and even though straights take little skill, its fun having a really powerful tuneful motor unleashing down straights too.

    Pure track cars(radical, stripped BMWs etc) tend to be crude dont sound great and need lots of fiddling. Many of us like a reasonable reliable turn key car with great motor exellent handling that asks for not too much more than fluids and pads for a season. Yes such a car may be x seconds slower than a race/track car, but ill remind everyone that Nicki Lauda only set a sub 8min nurbering lap in a ferrari F1 car in the 70's so speed is subjective too.

    The performante seems to tick a lot of boxes. Its got the styling, the great sounding motor so many things that make italian and german cars great. NA throttle resposnes and sounds, plently of latin charisma, being a german VW/audi/porche at its roots its probably reliable and reasonably economic to run on track needing only consumables here and there for a season. If a car needs to go to the shop, or eats rotors and needs all types of bits, thats your time from work and a big expense.

    Apart from that, what lambo is doing is getting away from the tyrany of more Hp which is then reined back by electronics to be useable. The performante seems designed a more complete package of weight, deployable power, traction, aero etc hence its laptime. I am willing to bet the Lambo wont win a 0-60 contest or a 1/4 mile contest or post the headline Hp number, and since so many sales seem to be numbers driven holding the nurbering laptime crown will make it a sales champ for the numbers crowd. The rest of us get what appears to be one fantastic car, a car going imo in the right direction of superlative chassis engine etc as opposed to just more weight hp and frankly gimick.

    Maybe it will suceed and sell a lot of regular hurcans too, that can be a wakeup to the other manufactuers. If lotus's lack of sucess as a company proves anything its that in the sales stakes superlative driving machines is a too small niche, you also need headline numbers. Looks like the performante has cracked both. As a bonus you dont need to deal with ferraris bad attitude towards "regular" customers.
     
  32. 95spiderman

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    Probably. There is always hidden agenda.

    But can you imagine how impossible it would be to set up a factory street car ring race? Which companies bring mechanics vs just car? Which car is a cheater? Tires? Ecu? Gas? Who drives? So much arguing, no time to race.

    would need to weigh and dyno cars. Then do accel, braking, skid pad tests prior. Then test gas and tires. Then maybe put cars on track for 30 min to see who goes furthest. Never going to happen
     
  33. boxerman

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    Or you could just individualy test cars at the same track for 10 laps. The cars woudl ahve to drive to the rack, you could run and street/track pad, and the test could use R compounds for one set of laps and slicks for another. You dont need accel, dyno,1/4 mile or anythign else, just 10 sustained laps, with laptime at lap 5 lap 10 and average.

    You might also do 4 sets of 10 laps with a comment about how the car was doing at the end of the day.

    You could also use a pro driver for 2 sets of tests per car, rs and slicks, and and a decent driver for the same two sets of tests in each car.. The pro might get better results from one car and the decent driver better results from another. Some cars migth not survive the day otehr may well still be in full fettle.

    To me thats a relevant test for anyone who tracks.
     
  34. 95spiderman

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    Relevant yes but results will be disputed by claims of cheating so need weight, dyno, testing to prove cars are legit. And will never get testing on slicks since manufactures always state their street cars are not safe on race tires due to increased stress, etc

    Despite all that, youre correct that there is no reason media cant change their current hot lap test to include an average of 10 laps
     
  35. 95spiderman

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    im thinking there might be a new screen name on fchat pretty soon! performante ticks off all the boxes - na engine, (relative) light weight, innovative tech, emotional driving experience. trade in the lotus along with the tow vehicle and youre done. ithica verde would be really nice. go for it
     
  36. plastique999

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    Yes go for it! I did


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  37. 95spiderman

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    awesomeness!
    and probably don't have to jump through hoops to get one like with Ferrari either
     
  38. boxerman

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    Its been a journey for me, working with a car that is both street and track, you eventualy end up with something thast does not fully satisfy either.

    Currently I am really happy with the lotus, just getting used to it and upping my game to its potential. Maybe another 2-3 summers till I am there, or at least in the orbit of the cars potential. yes a great driver will always be faster than me, but good to get into the hunt at least. When I feel I can drive the exige somewhere near its max, then its time for the next car, probably a SIN with a LS7. Check out sin cars, doing pretty well in GT4.

    In other words the days my having a street car to run on track are sort of past, which is different to a street based turnkey reliable track configured car(exige Viper ACR extreme etc).. Street useable cars are too me now too much compromise in alignment, suspension, tyre and brakes, and often also too much car for the street(in USA) . The caveat to track optimized street legal/useable being if you are driving to the track.

    Personaly I like loading up everything on the truck the night before, in the morning I am ready to go, all comfortable in the truck. I like being able to bring wheels and tires(fresh slicks, cycled slicks, wets) spare pads, a jack, fluids, air, fuel, tools, shade etc.

    Then after a long hot day in a noisy hard car its really nice just sitting in what is essential an air conditioned living room couch, listening to sat radio and driving home with minimal effort. If anything I would get an enclosed trailer next. Yeah its all a lot more comitment, and you have to park the truck and trailer somewhere, but if youre hitting the track more than few days per year it starts to make real sense.

    But yeah the performante does seem to tick all the boxes and you dont have to deal with ferrari. Personally if its a street based car, I am waiting for a GT4 RS because I think that car may be fun on road at all speeds, have an epic motor and be more than competant on track, but then lets hear how the performante goes, how much fun it is at semi sane speeds on street. Then maybe (MR Performante) has a nice ring to it..


    Although budget unlimited its a singer porche for the road and a Sin GT4 with LS7 for the track plus a Chevron B16 for vintage, and the loti as sparring partners.

    But if there had to be just 1 car right now, no question performante ticks all the boxes.
     
  39. 95spiderman

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    your unlimited budget sure makes for a nice garage! all great picks
     
  40. Bas Jaski

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    So do I. Whether I believe the laptime or not, I really like this car, I think it looks great, sounds great, and whether it does the 7.08 or the 6.53, it's ****ing quick by any measuring stick.
     
  41. PCJR

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    No you won't. Call jack at lambo LI and he'll get your order in!
     
  42. boxerman

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    What did you settle on for this summer?
     
  43. 95spiderman

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    still with lotus. its just so cheap to track i cant give it up. still want 458 though. maybe in addition to elise just as a street car. i couldnt handle dct blowing up on track.

    amazing how can just go into a lambo dealer and order one of these without having to bend over. that is more of a game changer than the aero to me. hope ferrari takes a lesson
     
  44. boxerman

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    #194 boxerman, Mar 15, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2017
    Yep a lotus makes tremendous sense if you track for a whole host of reasons. They are also great on quiet backcountry roads. Elsewhere not so much.

    458 is the first really great looking ferrari in along long time, and is sure to become a classic.

    As to Ferrari gettign the message, between product and dealer games they still dotn get it.. As a result they opened up the whole market to Mclaren, Audi R8 and still never got a hint. Lambo and Mclaren are now serious and real competition. In their absence Ferrari would be able to sell their desired volume of 10K units, but due to their hubris they cant.

    In the past Ferrari could claim to have the better product, now we can say they still have the better brand, to the extent thats relevant.

    I could write a book on the ills of being a ferrari customer.
     
  45. 95spiderman

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    Look what lexus and infinity did to the german luxury brands in 90s. Germans took a while to catch on but now they all offer equally good customer relations. Maybe ferrari will eventually learn too. Are people still willing to buy a 4 seater they dont want just to get on list for 488?
     
  46. plastique999

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    **** all this Lotus talk has made me all nostalgic....miss my S260 final edition Exige and really miss my 211. I will definitely get another Lotus in my garage.
    You're right though, it doesn't make sense to have a hybrid track/street car. As you have it, a dedicated track car is best and that's what I did running LotusCup. I trailered all over (Laguna Seca and Spring Mountain my favorite tracks) and enjoyed it, but as I'm getting older, I'd probably do arrive and drive when I start racing again.

    In regards to Ferrari, absolutely correct - no way I'd ever play their stupid game of buying useless cars to get in line. F that. Lambo is much easier to deal with and the Performante grabbed my attention real quick. I'd still like a 458S some day but will wait til they drop below MSRP (another stupid game). All future turbo F cars, I have absolutely no interest in.
    I'm holding on to the last NA cars that I can.
    IMG_9564.JPG
    IMG_6147.JPG
     
  47. hashiriya

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    As a part of brand discussion...
    Let's imagine (so it goes without further liabilities and etc.) there's a small German manufacturer, that's willing to release a fun to drive car. There are 2 engine options: 1000 hp N/A or 1400 hp TT (nothing laggy about it, due to displacement). Carbon tub and etc. is there, transmission is either 6-speed manual or Huracan/458-style DCT (Hoerbiger).
    Now, my point, if there's a chance to jump on a N/A train, it's better to do it now. 1000+ HP N/A thing is beyond dreams, however, in brute force a well designed TT engine will outrun it. So I thought about a prototype for Nordschleife a little like Zonda R to beat all competitors and then a car could be released to the market as something valuable (and desirable). Much like the same route worked for Huracan Performante... and I guess it worked really well. With all that and the time it had shown, I'm extremely worried (much in a good way) that it's gonna be a difficult task...
    The questions are: MSRP and customer relations. What would be desirable?
    That N/A engine alone in a small batch is close to Huracan P pricing, but to remind you, Zondas were $250-350K new in 2001.
    p.s. I don't have many places to ask for opinions, starting a new thread isn't worth the attention, not another dream.
     
  48. Laust

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  49. boxerman

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    Yep lotus just does soemthing no other car does, its the low eight and a car designed by people who place a total emphasis and priority on the way it drives. The use of off the rack motors and low mass makes them comparatively economic for sustained track use.
    The price paid is in road comfort refinement etc.

    It reminds me of my old wilder motorcycling days. I got a honda VFR 800 which dissapointed, while it was somewhat comfortable riding to the canyons, and capable in the canyons it just didnt have the edge. I would have been better off and more entertained on a fireblade, even if the ride to the canyon would have been somewhat less comfortable. So it is with cars that are used for pure weekend driving recreation.

    No doubt if youre driving to the track the performante is the car that ticks all the boxes for an adhoc track session and probably epic on sunday open road run.

    I also agree about the 458S, its the only modern ferrari that interests me, however I'll bet that after your performante it may be a little bit of a letdown to drive. I say this because the speciale has been described as not that different on road to a regular 458 and I found the 458 meh, like a vfr 800. Still its the last of the last, and the 458 is dino/miura classic styling.

    As for a new ferrari, well they wanted to sell me a 458 new 3 years back, with a 6 month wait whic was fine, but it was meh to drive. The one I would have bought they wouldnt sell the speciale. Well you could buy one over list with 2k miles from one of the favored flipper clients, no thanks.

    Thats Ferraris way, you gotta buy the ladies handbag for men car before you can be considered groveling enough to be considered for the good one and even then, not this time. Hence few serious drivers buy ferraris and that partialy explains the dearth of them on track. Plus if you work for your money, odds are you have a sense of dignity, being treated like crap for the honor of paying 300k just does not work for me.

    I guess ferrari is like the IN resteraunt, the one where you cant get a reservation, and then when someone takes you the food is assembly line indifferently cooked, but everyone just seems so honoured to be there that they think its great. But you know what, the In place sooner or later becomes out and the crowd moves on. Lots of branded fashion companies are discovering this to their chagrin. If you cant retain a core clientale who buys your product on what it is, not what it represents, , you loose.

    Fortunatly in NYC there are any number of superlative places to eat that respect customers. So it is with ferraris competitors these days. But hey as any number of peopel here will post ferrari is yugely sucessful so what do I know, well I know Sergio would love to sell 10k cars, but he cant.
     
  50. boxerman

    boxerman F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    May 27, 2004
    8,566
    CT
    Full Name:
    Sean

    Well there is already the new pagani hureya and the bugatti. Serious drivers imo dont go for 1000hp because we know its not useable and brings tremendous drawbacks. That means the customer for a 1000 hp car is looking for more hp than anyone else and a lot of luxury refinement and detail. Koningsegg anyone.

    That being said Saleen sold a few S7s and Hnessey sold a few of his 1000hp lotus eliges, so there is a less refined performance hypercar market if youre lookign to sell not more than a few.

    Still considder that there are those who way prefer the Zonda with its lighness over the Huraya, and the Maclren F1 is considered the best greatest modern car built. Somehting along the lines of these two for under 500k seems to offer at least a USP.

    Seems to be working for ford witht he new GT..

    Nurbering is also but one measure of a cars performance.
     

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