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Discussion in 'LamborghiniChat.com' started by Ferrari SS, Oct 27, 2016.
Really enjoyed the link to geneva
Hey Boxer -
What made you chose lotus track car instead of ferrari challenge?
(1) After my GT40 5k per day experience I wanted to avoid heavy maintanance both in terms of $ and time, plus I can do all the basic seasons maintanance on lotus myself at home. Running costs and maintanance admin(getting car to shop) dont work in ferraris favor.
(2) I always loved the elise just wanted to go faster and preserve the elise as a street car.
(My GT40 was an attempt to go fulfill a dream and go lightweight with lots of power and V8 ford maintanance costs.) I had strayed from the path of righteousness in not getting another lotus, the exige like all loti is great on track, everything has been worked out by the factory and they are pretty turnkey.
I do miss the charisma, top end charge of 575 hp short gearing and 2400lbs with razor steering the Gt40 had. In return I get a well sorted planted chassis, faster laptimes, brakes that always just have more and never fade and its turnkey. Its got full safety and FIA cage, fire etc. Plus the motor pulls like a small block chevy and sounds like a v12 ferrari.
The difference to a 4cyl elige is the front and rear have so much more, its planted, adjustable on throtlle, does not feel like it will punish and generaly reacts like a big single seater.
Pads seem to last 1000 track miles (cost $800) although thats more a driver fault than anything. The yoko slicks cost $300 more than for an elise, but seem to last longer, perhaps because of better chassis balance? Fluids are the same as an elise, fuel goes down at twice the rate but it runs of pump 93.
If you grenade the motor a new short block is 6k form toyota, and the transmision comes from a toyota FWD diesel delivery truck, its not going to break. The elsie I figure at $500-600 per 150-200mile day in consumables, not counting gas, tires being the biggest expense. The EXige is $100 more to run(brakes/tires), plus 2x the gas. I hear a porche GT3 is 1500-2k per day and I imagine a ferrari is not less, plus if you grenade a DCT.
To give an idea of relative performance, at the end of the straight at monticello in the elise I was doing somewhere in the low 120's and had to start braking at the no5. in the exige youre going well north of 150 at the end of the straight brake at the No3 and I am still way overbraking. In fact every corner I can think of you arrive at least 20mph faster and can go deeper than the elise, and yet I am still overbraking.
Drive of the apex is also hugely different there is 300ftlbs of Tq and it wont under or oversteer like an 4cyl elige. If or when I learn how to drive it properly should be right around a 430Ch laptime, and as with all things lotus there are endless upgrades. No1 on my radar being shorter gearing for 4th and 5th which will add a lot of velocity on straights.
While its hard to compare drivers it took 5 or 6 laps to reel in a C6 vette on slicks, and he definatly had 10 mph or more speed down the main straight while the lotus was quicker everywhere else including short straights.
This summer will have lost 50lbs already between the lipo battery and 311 wheels. There is probably another 100lbs to loose and some aero to add, but before any real mods the driver has to get to the current level of the car.
If you liked driving a 997.2 GT3 then youll love the EXige its really very similar performance and feel except harder and more focussed.
thanks for info
Forgot on other reason
Gator Motorspotrs in Indy, yeah they were far away but well worth it, and the car came to my door in an enclosed 2 car trailer. Simply a fantastic dealer to work with, never had a vehicle buying experience like that before, simply fantastic.. They did evrything they said, price was excellent and it all happened pleasantly and smoothly. A place run by true car people.
Its another reason i will stay in the lotus fold.
Big thanks for your reply and comments.
I know, you probably think of 1000 hp being undriveable, but with 7.0L V12 it shouldn't be a problem. There's nothing special, strange or mystical about such engines. When properly designed, it should have a more or less linear output - like the more you rev, the more you get, when you need it. So a N/A 1000 hp engine is more driveable than a narrow band forced induction one. It hard to make a rev-happy engine with forced induction. McLaren when making MP4-12C and P1 had to buy Nissan-designed pure racing V8 and develop for road use. Way too hard to start from scratch.
The original car (the one that's made and driving) bears a V12 with twin-turbo setup. The street car derived V12 engine with accessories weighs a ton, landing the car in 1250 kg range. So my point is that it should be either N/A V12 or a V8 with forced induction. (I never thought about a V10, being a Gallardo-Huracan thing only, although it could be a blast.)
1250 kgs not bad, but not as good as F1 was. I'd love to keep in mind the 956 and 962 which were 800-850 kg in weight. I know, you better not crash that thing, but as I'm informed that's not bad for a GT40 style aluminum monocoque that could go 400 km/h during races and still holds the record for best Nurburgring Nordschleife lap time (6:11).
I see where your input goes. Design-wise it shouldn't be a problem. There is a problem in implementation of good ideas, like transparent-background LCD screens with graphics for use with addition to analog-style dash. Although I really do thing speedo is the last thing to care about, it actually distracts from driving, if you know what I mean...
What I do care most about ex-powertrain related things is ergonomics and making the interior roomy, also decreasing side sill size. The whole bunch of ideas calls for a new monocoque. The gearbox is ancient manual. I love true manuals, it's modern 0-100 km/h times that call for better transmission solutions.
The question is in what customers would/might understand of the things implied. For example, nobody ever liked XJ220 for the V6 it had, despite being a great engine in a great car. The american Saleen, Hennessey or Mosler seemed to skip the refinement/design point. They all were extremely shy in introducing good ideas to car designs. Mosler might have been a nice car, people seemed to praise them, the few who got to drive.
So, in short: the car now is like early 90s supercar - pure, not much driveable if compared to modern standards. Narrow cockpit, bad ergonomics, hude side sills, weird styling. Big engine and transmission, narrow band.
Let's call it Gen/Ver.1: I could pay attention to exterior and interior design, stick better turbos, but I can't get away from bad ergonomics. And I do think side mounted fuel tanks are a bad idea.
Gen.2: A car re-designed from ergonomic and powertrain-weight efficiency points of view. DCT, MagneticRide and other useful things. That involves lots of R&D time which depends on lots of variables. But this makes all the modern car comforts, with full CAD simulations it's easier to balance NVH right from the start and etc. Good aerodynamic car design, N/A engine or better engine can be implied at once.
I'd love to avoid the biggest drawback of modern cars, they are unpredictable due to huge input from traction control, you can't feel the grip point until it's too late. If you compare 964 Turbo 3.6 S with 997 mk2 Turbo S - 964 any day, not only it's roomier, but the driving comfort and predictability is top notch. 997 Turbo S grips and grips, until it suddenly loses all, PDK in automatic mode IMHO is very slow to react, only worth in manual mode.
I feel like Gen2 should be introduced, but Gen1 is financially efficient. Even Gen1 can be modified for 'Ring setup and show some decent lap time. The actual street driving comforts would be lacking, landing it in the non-refined ex-racecar league.
Gen1 could be used as a suspension aerodynamics prototype loosely resembling Gen2 design, just to get the 'Ring media attention during development time. It seems the only worth use.
There's also a next Gen: A car design from scratch, being extremely uncommon in layout and transmission solutions, basically everything. The demands would be ergonomics and absolute street drivablity making it a real super-car from my point of view - absolutely usable, friendly and bloody quick, hopefully, with 3 pedals! This is the final point from what I can see now, but if I'd have infinite R&D resources, it would take at least 3 years to design and endurance test all the systems, way many innovations. There is nothing that Chiron or its successor will have against it. It's not only a car, but a whole car-to-highway communication system.
If something goes bad it, the project might not be finished in decent time.
Gen3 project is hard to run as the main project, although I'd love to. I feel like time is running out (not for me, but for pure supercars and combustion engines).
So creating great things is always risky and extremely financially inefficient. I don't see interest in technical start-ups, lol, everyone is willing to spend a fortune on another Facebook copycat, rather than something that put a milestone in some industry.
Gen3 project is hard to run as the main project, although I'd love to. I feel like time is running out (not for me, but for pure supercars and combustion engines).
The question is: do people around really car progress? Or being just slightly better than competitor makes it all? It seems like people who design and buy them are from different worlds. Modern customers seem to call fast lane changing as handling nowadays. What is the purpose of actual buying such cars from buyers point of view? (not taking Lotus customers in the account)
Some people still like and buy G-wagens. Aventadors sold in thousands, being fairly weird of its own - big and not that overly quick or nimble (non-SV).
p.s. Also why do you call them Eliges? What's that? For non-Lotus community
Question for you, when you ordered you Huracan P, did Lamborghini give you an estimated delivery date?
Fall this year...
Thank you! I was told year end and I wanted to check.
I spoke a lot with my dealer in wanting to be in the first round delivery here in the States. I am expecting delivery in August.
Sent from my 16M
I'm looking at October. Placed the order just yesterday. I'm 3rd in line from my dealer.
We were in Miami and watched the Lambo presentation of the car. They did a lot of track work to get the system down pat. They claim you corner faster and I believe Lambo.
Lambos planning' something.
thanks for the vids!
so what do you buy? a new performante with latest aero tech, warranty, etc or a used speciale? imo both of these cars are way above my capabilities so it comes down to something other than performance.
both of them are n/a screamers, so cant distinguish them based on engine. both great dct transmission. not sure the huracans awd will make much of a difference other than if get stuck in a rainstorm on the way to or from a track day so no big deal there either.
I might come off as shallow but to me it comes down to style. I don't love the lambos look. the intakes at the c pillars resemble the old 308gt4 which was never know as a looker. and the extreme cab forward/slanted windshield make it hard tell which end is front or back in profile.
used speciale for the win!
A properly set up AWD system has a major advantage at the track, when coming out of corners you're able to get on the throttle sooner and push it further to the floor than RWD.
*edit* I prefer RWD, but proper AWD is faster at the track. Look at what Audi did to the Touring car series with Quattro in the 90's.
You are REALLY going to have to point out some specifics to show any resemblance of a 308 in a Huracan. Further, intakes at the c-pillar have been on every V12 Lamborghini since the Miura.
New info added about g-forces: First Drive: 2018 Lamborghini Huracan Performante | Driving
I do remember the audi unfair advantage and i have lots gtr track experience but I just dont think the awd will make a huge difference in this case. Might be wrong, will have to see.
I admit hracan and gt4 comparo is out there but theres another one that has that same look at the c pillar. 812! And I dont like it there either. Miura however is gorgeous
New article, really interesting.
Also the conclusion seems to be maybe a manual Gt3.
Lamborghini Huracan Performante review - Is 'Ring king as impressive as the numbers suggest? | Evo
The 4cyl lotus Elise, exige and 211 share the same tub and basic mechanicals. In easily modfied form one can be faster than the other and visa versa so we just call them eliges for short.
The 1200 hp hennsey has the same elige tub as does the exige V6. So one basic tub cockpit is strong and stiff enough to go from 195 hp to 1200.
As to a 1000hp car. seems these sell more like the Chiron a luxury heavy Gt type of car, a sort of road ultimate. For track use lighter is better, the aston vulcan for example makes do with a mere 750 and porche Gt3s only 500.
Yes if the mtor is linear it very helpful, but short of a heavy downforce track car still you wouldnt be using 1000hp and even then really it takes a pro racer brain to calibrate to that type of speed. For a civillian youre just holding back or the electronics are.
Ill contrdict myself by sayign that 1000 hp is probably only 40% more in terms of real go than 500hp and only 30% more than the 640 hp viper, such are the laws of diminishing returns. So maybe it works.
As to the future of supercars, I think we are startign to see a significant diversion. There are those cars that can and do go to the track, performante, gt3, and those that have a different social purpose like the aventador and pretty much every ferrari, which are used only street.
This diversion or specialization is taking place for several reasons. The largest two drivers of this are road conditions and driver ability. In the 21st centry the ability to really use the performance of even an 80s supercar on road for legal, social and traffic reasons is extemly limited to near impossible. Therefore most fast cars are really irrelevant other than for self congratulatiosn and social status or they need to be able to goto the track. The handling for most as you say is for lane changes and the power is for short accleration bursts. Most buyers are more interested in fancy luxury options and implied performance than track ability. teh cars are built so that anyone can drive them, which as aprice leads to a pretty bland driving experience below 9/10ths.
All this means that the subset of drivers who really want to use a car(but not necessarily race) need one that can go to the track, and also be enerttaining at road attainable speeds, ease of use during a commute is not high on the priority list if its at the expense of the former.
Since drivers are not an isigninficant minority there has been an explosion of trackdays and track clubs. If youre playign with car on track, for many that means a comfortable enough street legal car to get tot he track, and car that will be durable all day on track. As a bonus such a car should be entertaining at semi sane speeds on sunday road drive.
Imo Porche is honing in on this ideal with the Gt4 and Gt3. Not necessarily the "fastest" cars in their catalog, but their lightest and most raw durable on track with charismatic motors etc.
The progenator of this breed has to be the 250swb a car great on road and track. By great on track I dont mean fast for 3 laps, but quick all day. Great on road means able to handle some traffic and highway but truly entertaining on backroad.
Anyone who drives regularily on track knows that past a certain power to weight ratio more power really means nothing. plus there is always a fastser pure race car on track. Thats why imo porche is nailing it with the Gt3 and Gt4. Lotus gets the driving on road and track parts right, but their cars for the upscale gentleman of some means are too crude and the motors too pedestrian.
To me the trackday/sportscar genre looks to be about 10-15k sales per year in the 80-250k range, with maybe a few hundred to 1000 in the price above that(ford Gt).
At 1000hp imo youre either sellign a chiron huraya type car, or a very limited number of track specials like the on77 which also sell because of their brand name.
The track/street sportscar genre are an ineteresting market for some. Its not all about outright performance so much a perfomance with great motor and some reasonable refinement with great street entertainment thrown in, Gt3 Gt4 and now performante. Race cars or pure track cars dont care about car manners, motor charateristcs in terms of smoothness or sound, inatgibles such as feel etc.
Seen this posted on three other forums, with this being hopefully true, then the perf is just the beginning, and the 2RS slayer is coming later. From two different forums:
Yup, I was hoping the Perf would be limited as well but good news is the CEO and head of R&D have hinted they'll be a more hardcore version of the Perf based on the ST at some point which I would assume will be a limited car.
Yup there will be and it will be even more "nuts" than the Performante however might only be in 2 years time and I dont want to wait
given its na screaming motor and its prowess on track, this is my pick for best track car you can drive on street. just get it in a subdued color like silver and good to go
Not sure if any of you guys check out the 918 vs thread, but here is the first test.
First test in AutoZeitung!
-Weight: 1557 kg
-0-100 kph: 2,78 s
-0-200 kph: 8,83 s
-100-0 kph: 31,1 m
-200-0 kph: 116,5 m
-Contidrom 3,63 km: 1:29,55 min (their own record)
About 2 seconds quicker around a 3,6-km-long track than the Corvette Z06 Z07-Pack.
The most impressive stat here is the breaking distance. That's unreal.
is my math off? 31.1m equals 102' which isnt so great at all. many cars under 100'
That also depends on the surface it was on, as well.
488 spider drag race