i lost my self-confidence,

'Keeping Score' is the fastest way to put a SOLID 'governer' on your learning experience.

'Keep Score' and lose .....

 

I'm going to try and say something delicately to you: far be it for me (or anyone) to quash your dreams, but, honestly, from another driver's perspective, I wouldn't want to be on track with you. And, arguably, whomever is letting you out on track is being irresponsible.

If you legitimately want to improve, I think you should start over. Go back to square one. Attend a competent driving/racing school. Build up your skills in the slower ranks. Then decide where you want to go from there. There's no reason why you can't improve (although, I have indeed come across people who, no matter the amount of instruction, training, seat time or help, simply cannot drive). I'm not saying you're one of those, but your choice of car may have amplified your own lack of skills. And, this car is known to have some bad habits, too. The 360C, for the first couple of Challenge seasons, was ping pong-ing off walls. It's a semi-aero car, which means that when you lose the aero effect, the car can easily snap away from you. So, it's pretty important to understand what NOT to do (like stepping on the brakes in the middle of a corner...classic TTO). The GT-aero (wing & splitter) helped reduce the bad characteristics of the car, but they're still there.

Racing is racing, and stuff happens, but hitting practically everything in sight is another thing altogether. I'm not trying to be unnecessarily rude, but I've driven with guys who probably shouldn't have been on track, and it's never comfortable. Understand that it's dangerous for everyone else, too.

I'm not even going to address the lack of full fire protection. If you're driving fast enough to do what you did to the car, I'm shocked that you're not wearing triple nomex. Was this at a sanctioned event? Or, just a private test/track day?

CW

 

I think everyone, me included, wants to be encouraging. Racing's a huge amount of fun, and there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to have fun at it, too.

If this is something you really want to do, don't get discouraged. Good luck!

CW

 

Op is driving and crashing at private track days. He has not mentioned desire to become a racer. So he needs to ignore all responses that talk about racing. Go to racing school, learn to race in karts, get a cheap racing car, etc. All bad advice for driving hpde. Hpde is not racing!

Imo, hpde will be ruined and go out of existence due to the hpde is racing mentality. I see too many race teams show up at hpde and treat it as a cheap way to get race practice and tune for subsequent race. Hpde operators are encouraging them by have groups without point bys. Every one is timing their laps on cell phones too. All this ups the competitive aspects of performance driving and turns it to a race.

Next step is insurance regulators decide hpde needs full safety like cage, fire, suit, etc which means trailer. Same as racing. And hpde is finished. There are already plenty of places to amateur race and time trial. All the competitive racers shold persue their hobby there and leave hpde alone. I really want to be able to continue to drive my sports car to and from track, lap in safety well within my and cars performance envelope, all with much less chance of accident than driving to work. Thats hpde to me

So if op wants to enjoy hpde, SLOW DOWN and hire a private hpde coach

 

Huh? I dont get it

 

First thing they teach in race schools is proper line and technique and the physics of handling. Those skills translate, and, even though I'm not racing in a sanctioned series any longer, I use those skills each and every time I get in a car. Not just a race car on a race track, either. Race craft is another level that's acquired over time in the seat and on track, which is "taking it further", but not necessarily a goal of the driver. I think we're talking about getting the basics first. So, where and how to get those?

I think that a qualified school has a method of teaching that's tested and proven. If you go to a Skip Barber or equivalent, you'll get those basics. HPDE instructors, as far as I can tell, have no methodology to their instruction. I'm not saying they can't teach or help, but I think that formal instruction to a plan may yield greater results than an ad libbing-it driving coach who's hopping in and out of a car with x number of different drivers (and y number of different cars) throughout a day at the track.

The OP has a fast car. With aero, roll cage and harnesses. Again, I'm not saying that OP must go on and race in a series, but I've certainly improved by getting into the cage with the young lions and duking it out.

CW

 

im a typical hpde instructor. took the national bmwcca instructor course which is similar to pca and others so it is very standardized and not ad hoc at all. this type of instructing is fine for most hpde drivers but clearly, the op is not typical which is why I recommended he hire a private coach. someone like procoach on fcat, the guy from speed secrets, or david murray, etc.

I started with the 3 day bertil roos race school in 1999 and it was fine but I don't think it will help the op avoid accidents. the object for him is not to bring his skill up to the pace of a 360c but to first bring his speed down to his skill level. then build up from there

 

Your approach sounds fine, too, and I don't doubt that there are capable instructors out there who can take a driver from knowing little to well-steeped in race craft. I'm just going on my own personal experience. I've used coaches, also, to improve my skills, but I had the basics down first. Just used coaches to fine-tune and find time when I was plateau-ing.

I also like the aspect of the schools where you're using (i.e. risking) their hardware, and you're putting the wear and tear on their equipment. OP is free to and can certainly determine what's best for him from all the options available.

CW

 

its not about hardware with the op. its the software that matters ;(

 

True enough, but we all know the guy who brings the baddest piece of equipment and yet doesn't have the crew to run it properly. I've seen a guy do tens of thousands of damage to a 333SP because he didn't put fresh sneakers on and couldn't make it out of the pit without spinning (or past Turn 1). He had just bought the car, and the tires were ten years old. His wife and son were the crew. If you've got the $1MM for the car, you've got the $4K for a fresh set of slicks. And, you've got the $ to have proper support. I get being eager and excited, but you can hurt yourself (or worse) pretty quickly and do lots of expensive damage while you're at it. It was a humbling day for that owner, too.

Just saying that money is nice, but it doesn't buy wisdom. Or experience. Or skill. Or innate ability. There's plenty of guys around who've been through the ranks and have a helpful thought or two that may resonate. This isn't a bashing session (and isn't meant to be one). I think the OP trying to figure out what to do next is a useful exercise for him.

Just want everyone to have fun and be safe on the track.

CW

 

There is a difference between:

HPDE high performance drivers education

HPDE high performance driving events


Either way all the principals HPDEx2, TT and Racing have the same raw basics that the OP is obviously lacking. Even a race school doesn't put you into a race straight away. They go through the basics.

There is nothing wrong from with HPDEvents "timing" or having car make challenges from your worry about an insurance issue. If you like a lot of rules with regimented ladder, POC, PCA, BMWCCA is perfect. There are many ways to skin a cat. But this OP needs instruction from someone who will not only show him the basics but also control him emotionally. If that can't be done the truely OSB! It is really up to the OP and his attitude about putting on his "white" belt and learning to drive instead of trying to beat a fly with a sledgehammer.

 

the only way to get better is with more track time but also with a cool mind.

when driving, its easy to get lost. i remember when i started, its really easy to get red mist and i almost wrecked my car my first track day. some people get through clean and some people don't. but what it takes is calm minds and supportive (and knowledgeable friends).

from what it sounds like, you got too much car.

edit- knowing the track you're on, its also a ****ty track to learn on. most of the tracks in china that are <4km have almost no runoffs and no real margin for error. i would suggest learning on tracks that are safer.

edit2- Formula cars are arguably easier to drive than the road cars. (but that depends on how used to the handling you are)

 

But OP needs to learn to drive first ... this is where the go kart comes in. Not just for racing but to learn how to drive and tune his instincts. You learn by your mistakes and spinning out in a go kart is usually harmless. Of course if you keep spinning out ... then high performance driving is not for you

I'd park the Ferrari and buy a go kart, or if it has to be a car, a MX5/Miata.
Pete

 

Go to Lucas Oil School of Racing. You can learn everything you need in the car. It's a Rays GR11 FF chassis built to F3 specs so anyone can fit in it. The focus of a basic racing school is really not on racing; but car control, braking, technique, etc.

If you want a car with a roof/cage, then Skippy runs the MX5s which should be fairly safe still I believe.

Karting is also a great idea as some have mentioned - just don't go to extreme off the bat. Some of the worst accidents are on fast karts.

I would also highly recommend a day of skidpad time.

Many HPDE "coaches", even from well know organizations, are very poor in my experience. The racing schools will force you to be discipline and follow a process to finding speed. The instructors have massive experience driving, racing, and teaching. The schools are also awesome places to meet coaches which you may wish to hire privately also. You can see who you like and how you work with them. Your damage is limited to 6k USD.

I was somewhat similar to you, but didn't wait to have an accident. I had a few moments on the track in fast street cars and decide to go to Skip Barber to get safe. Then ended up finding the formula cars far more rewarding and difficult to drive than road cars.

 

I think he is saying to focus on technique before you worry about trying to hit some imaginary number which has been deemed to be a good target. I agree. I didn't time any laps at HPDE for a long time; I had plenty to work on before worrying about trying to be the fastest or whatever.

I think the point some are trying to make is that there are far better teaching tools than a big sports car with expensive parts on it. A formula car or an MX5 are great tools with no aids (well ABS on MX5 barf ; ) ) and sensational feedback but also cheap to crash, etc.

I think it's much harder to learn on higher grip, higher speed cars, than a slower purpose built race car.

 

not that big a difference -

Driver ed priorities are 1. Safety. 2. Improve/learn. 3. Fun
Driver event priorities are 1. Safety. 2. Fun. 3. Improve/learn

op is missing first priority regardless type event he attends. Racing school and better car will not help him until he slows down and drives to his capabilities
my advice is to -

get a pro coach
avoid driving in traffic
brake early in straight line
coast from turn in through apex to track out
gas only when perfectly straight

 

Huge difference. like insurance co may cover one not the other. one has instructor ladder. one has "instructor" who instruct for reduced track fee and 95% never had a class on how to teach. one often forbids "timing." HPDE is not one blanket trackday and there are many flavors within those 2 broad umbrellas.

 

Go toa proper 3 day race school, to start. I think your eyes will be opened. After that you will be able to asess.

 

Shifter karts are brutal and much more difficult to drive than a 400-HP Ferrari. Ideally the OP can start with a non-geared kart, such as a Rotax Max, and build his driving skills from there.

 

I agree with both of you.

 

Here would be my plan:

1.) Stop driving on race track-now.
2.) Ignore the "faster is cooler" concept when looking at a car to track day with.
3.) Find a good professional driver coach/instructor. Best you can afford. Ask him what car you should start out in.
4.) Buy that car and hire that instructor.
5.) Go to the track with you, your instructor, your car and no one else. And no stop watches!
6.) Spend 5-8 hours a day in the car and in the pits and listen to your instructor. Don't worry about lap times, etc. Why you do not want anyone else on the track.
7.) After a day or two, if you have a good instructor, he will tell you if you have "it" or not.
8.) Listen to your instructor-and if says "hang it up" then go and find a new hobby.

You are in a potentially dangerous spot right now-in terms of your psyche. You have an ego that makes you believe/want to drive fast. And you seem to have a certain impatience in learning the skill set to get there. And you now are worried about having lost the confidence to drive well and fast.

All that adds up to a (another) accident. And one of these times it will wind up hurting you or someone else-and maybe badly.

Calm down, slow down, back up some and take a fresh run at the problem by getting some really good one to one instruction. Without a good instructor you will never unlearn the bad habits and techniques you have developed.

Done right there is very little reason to believe that you cannot develop into someone who can drive with safe and reasonable speed on the race track.

Don't give up and don't let your self doubts stop you. Get some real help and you will regain your confidence and skill set.

 

Go to a good race school, after 3 days you'll have your answer, which will probably be more race school.

 

not sure why race school seems to be the most popular answer here. op can crash as easily at race school as hpde. maybe more so since race school doesnt usually have in car instructing. he needs to slow down and drive to his ability not the cars ability.