i lost my self-confidence,

Well the goal obviously is to not crash. It should not be easy to crash at a well run racing school, but it certainly happens. The damage is capped unlike with a road car which helps some people deal with the cost. The instructors can slow you down at a school just as easily as at the track (flags, warnings, etc) - actually, they build up to open lapping, so you get mandatory feedback over the radio, braking drills, etc.

The instruction (and resumes) at race schools also tends to be exceptional. The program is phased so that there is a gradual progression of speed as technique is learned. The instruction at HPDE can be hit or miss in my experience.

Race school should have video, data, and observation feedback as well as data/knowledge from instructors/test-drivers who can drive the platform faster than anyone. You can also do lead-follows with real time radio if your helmet is wired and you elect the option after a basic class. So it's a great way to understand where you are, and where you want to go - without the variables associated with different speed cars, etc.

The formula cars exaggerate many small mistakes you can get away with in road cars, so they are a great tool as well. Put a low grip tire and you can learn even more while keeping the risk lower. Not to mention many people have never driven on the track without ABS.

Just some of the reasons I think it's a good idea. Obviously there are different ways to skin the cat.

 

I did the Skippy three-day program at Laguna Seca. It was fantastic. The instructors are not in the car with you, but they are watching closely. In a momentum car, Laguna has so much run off space, it is hard to get hurt. One of the hardest turns to learn is T2. It requires a LOT of entry speed because it is a double apex where you rotate by trail braking until you get on the gas. If you hit the brakes too soon, you end up going too s-l-o-w around the rest of the turn.

The problem is T2 is at the end of a l-o-n-g straightaway. Even in a Miata, you're going about as fast as that little puppy can go. The 4 board goes by. The 3 board goes by. The 2 board goes by. The 1 board goes by. You finally hit the brakes right at the first apex, just when you are sure you're gonna die; but seconds later, you realize you hit the brakes too soon, again.

My driving buddy decided he was gonna nail it. Our instructor and I were watching on the T2 infield when he came flying in doing a perfect 4-wheel drift. It was a thing of beauty. Only problem was he couldn't get the car rotated and went sideways into the gravel. He was fine, but the impact pulled the tires off the rim. They were full of gravel!

Point is driving fast takes seat time. Better yet, it takes seat time in a controlled environment. Even better yet, at Skippy, the insurance is only $500.

 

Just be careful hombre!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbYAd0wUc7U[/ame]

 

Exactly why I keep saying a racing school will not help the op. He can crash there just as easily. And all the talk between the drivers about late braking, drifting, lap times, telemetry, will only add to his red mist issues

hire guy like ross bentley or our pro coach, use a street car with esp, and go slow. Thats his best chance

 

You can crash a bicycle if you try hard enough. So, that's no justification.

The point is that there's a regimented, proven methodology. HPDE is hardly "consistent" from what I've seen. Every instructor has their own way of doing things. The point of this is to arrive at a baseline. Sure, if you spend enough time with the same instructor, and they have a syllabus, why not? A race school concentrates it all in just a few short days, which, for most people, is the easiest way to get to that baseline.

In another thread, OP claims to "have the basics." He should know how to get around a track without hitting things, then.

CW

 

Hope it goes well. Good luck.

CW

 

I think you are still missing the point of racing school. The point of this video is that Skippy is having too many catastrophic brake failures IMHO and you can get into the walls at Laguna.

Pro Coach is a big advocate of the Lucas school FYI. They also just announced the car will be the platform for the team USA scholarship shootout.

They control the speeds by rev limit control FYI as people learn. Personally I think it makes far more sense to learn on a platform without traction control or abs. That is the purest connection to a machine.

I didn't diagnose the op w red mist personally. If I had to guess, he has "trying too hard syndrome", which is common and coachable. But the coach, or coaches are the key as you point out.

 

Have fun man!

Sounds like you are being honest with yourself and seeking advice because you recognize a problem. That is absolutely the right attitude to be successful and you would be surprised how many can't take that step.

Finally, I would say that if you do seek out racing one day, most instructors will tell you they will take the fast guy w the incidents now and then vs the guy they have to try to make fast. Either way you have to be disciplined to find speed and confident in the process, not just hoping it works out ; )

 

Probably repeating what others have said but...

Don't give up. Don't throw in the towel. It becomes discouraging at times, and you'll plateau. You need to figure out how to get out of that rut. Need to get a better instructor or driving coach. As others have suggested, get a slower car. Buy a Miata! An old Spec Miata will do just fine. And when you are done with it, you can sell it for the same bucks! The cost of the Miata will be less than the front bumper of the 360C. But dollars don't matter, so do it anyway while the 360C is getting repaired.

When things slow down (from 400hp down to 130hp), and you are working on the momentum, you can correct much faster and have time to process all the information around you. When you are getting into a 360C, you are accelerating the sensory inputs, and there are also visuals around the track you are missing out because the car is so much faster. There might be a small incline you need to wait before you shift and bounce of the limiter because of the lack of power. The 360C would least likely even blink at such an issue. Your senses can only process so much when you only have so many track days under your belt.

/my two cents.

 

4 crashes in 15 or so events... That's a pretty staggering statistic... Most HPDE with the PCA I have gone to field 100+ cars, and no one hits a hard wall. Spins? Yes...

Something is clearly off... As you were doing this on a private track, did you have an instructor of any kind? Why not join FCA and do some of their track days, with their instructors?

Or better yet, join PCA and just buy a race prepped car. If you can drive a tail heavy 911 around a course and not spin, then the 360 will be a cake walk...

You would probably have more fun in a cheaper car also. I know you said cost isn't an issue, but it usually always is. Even if you can afford to repair a 360 repeatedly, how much fun can that be?

Buy a cheap car, without any drivers aids, and learn on that. I am learning on my 930, which is arguably not a great track car due to its rear weight bias. But, I have never spun it, and manage to keep up with newer cars with all the nannies...

Not sure if a 360cs has any nanny drivers aids... just providing general comments

 

Point taken but depends on what shifter engine and how inexperienced the OP is. Stock Hondas have less torque and hence are easier to driver.

I agree that a basic direct engine is an initial step. Lets be mindful that a well prepared direct engine kart can also be very quick and difficult to drive.

 

Proper line selection is extremely important. Talk to the experienced guys at whatever track your on and find out which section(s) is/are particularly tricky and why. Remember, slow in fast out. Always focus your eyes way down the track at where you want to be. Take the slicks off, way too unforgiving. Set your car up for more understeer. Most offs into walls are due to snap oversteer and trying to "save it". You can practice dealing with snap oversteer in a huge parking lot with NO light poles. Frankly, I just let go of the wheel and let rolling resistance and geometry of the front end straighten things out naturally. The best plan is to simply avoid the situation completely by judicious throttle control and proper corner exit line choice (tracking out) to free up the car.

 

It did capture the moment of entering T2. I was in the MX cars. No open wheel for me. In fact, the open wheel guys where slowing everything down because they always ended up in the gravel pits and had to be towed out. Plus, I had brakes, at least 8 years ago!

 

I think racing motorcycles would be a good idea.
The driver here is doing making mistakes with impunity.

Motorcycles have a special way of reminding the rider that he should not make mistakes. That immediate and lasting feedback is not present in cars.

 

MX's have ABS, not so for the formula car : )

8 years ago was a much different place at Skippy from what I understand.

Yah getting towed out of a gravel trap sucks...absolutely has never happened to me. Never...what? ; )

 

The guy who ran Skippy when I was there, now runs Lucas. Great guy. I'd do Lucas, except no open wheel for me.

 

Re: the video.

Last time I checked, threshold braking is a skill.

CW

 

First. This may sound a bit harsh. But if you can't control your ego and emotions, you have no business being on a race track at a trackday. That's the first thing you need to work on.

Second, get something slower than a 360CH. Get an Elise and go tracking with a good instructor. Sound like you may benefit from an instructor who is more firm with you.

Third. Get a manual car with street tyres. They are way more progressive when they let go. Race slicks have a great amount of traction, but once they let go, they will shoot you off the track with little warning.

Fourth. If money is not a major concern and you really want to learn in a Ferrari, do the Corso Pilota program. Note that they will be quite stern with you and if you keep overstepping your driving skills, they will boot you out.

Lastly. Seriously consider the Ferrari Pilota On Ice program. Driving on snow and ice is all about car control. Auto X courses is also an idea. It's all about control and coordination.

 

Ha! Not quite though ; )

This is a common failure condition on the RT's.

The kid in the video is an experienced racer and this is his home track. He went on to win 1 or 2 make up races with a hand fracture I believe.

 

Todd is great! Runs Ferrari Challenge also!

Yah I hear you on open wheel. That's all they have for now. I know they are going to expand the open wheel fleet. Not sure about anything w a roof.

 

Don't know of any Diesel karts... I would start with a 125 CC TAG kart ... it will be plenty of speed and the G's will be way more than you will experience in any 360 or Formula car up to F2 - F1. Once you master a 125 cc Kart - move to Shifter karts... that is equivalent to F-1 levels of power to weight and G's... the skill and ability to smoothly drive a Kart is much higher than driving a car... at the same level.

Going from a Car to a kart - it will seem like a video game, un till it finally slows down. Going from a Kart to a car... seems like slow motion.

from what I have read, you need instruction from a proper school - Skip Barber, Bondurant, Roos, etc... or if you are really wealthy - get a private coach from one of the schools to take you through the steps... Consistent speed only comes through practice. you have to work up to it... if you jump right in you may find your next accident is your last. Death on a race track comes to rich people just as much as it does to poor people. - best of luck.

 

I have a Tony kart with a 125cc shifter KZ1 Maxster racing engine, which is very fast.

Go to a local kart track and find out what they race.

As spirot said, starting level would be 125cc water cooled direct drive. If you are not experienced start there. Avoid 4 cycle engines, they are heavy and lack torque.

Most people start out recreational without formal instruction. You'd need to make a judgment call on getting instruction given your prior accidents. Again consult your local track.

 

Even the best of us makes a mistake now and then...

CW