I Miss my 360 3 pedal - What is the replacement?

Greetings -

A few years ago, in a fit of fear as I contemplated a new clutch, catalytic converter replacement, and a few other odds and ends, I decided to sell my 3 pedal 360 spider. The timing was perfect - for the buyer. I sold it just before the 3 pedal cars moved higher, watching my "ex" gain significantly over the last few years. But that's life, and no point getting upset about it.

The question now is: If I want to replace my 360 spider, in today's market, what's the best way to go? Some info: I'm a "senior citizen" - that means someone stole my 35 year old body and gave me this one -- complete with arthritis and decades worth of wear and tear. My wife also shares my arthritis and even though I enjoy a great sports car, I wonder about those low seats over the coming years.

I have always had a manual transmission sports car, and the thought of a F1 bothers me. On the other hand, having driven the F430 and newer cars, I must admit that in those cars an F1 transmission is a very good match - getting the most out of the car all the time. The issue is I'm no longer looking to get every ounce of testosterone into my driving experience, and having a car shift in 60 microseconds isn't necessarily as much fun as "rowing your own".

I also have 3 grandsons - all under 8 years old. The idea of a "2+2" has some appeal as I can see myself in a more comfortable car (sorry, at my age I actually think of that) and have room for the grandkids. I live 90 miles from one child, 175 to the other - perfect distances to enjoy a nice ride, particularly on back roads.

So, my thought is to consider a F430 if I want to replace the 360 spider, or maybe a 612 if I want the 2+2. As I consider these cars I believe that at current prices the F430 F1 is very reasonable ($100-135K or so), but I'm unsure about earlier 2005-2006 versus the later 2008+ cars. Your thoughts are invited. I've heard some horror stories from owners about replacement cost for the CCB brakes, along with the common header problems and exhaust issues. I don't like aftermarket exhausts - too loud and not enjoyable, at least for me.

The 612 F1 has a pretty wide price range, likely because there are fewer of them, but I'm sure with a little work I can find an appropriate car. The 612 manual transmission cars seem to have moved to levels far beyond my idea of reasonable. I don't know very much about this model, having only sat in one, unlike the F430 which I've been able to drive several times. Your experiences are welcome.

Finally, I've also considered other cars - largely to avoid my prior history of unexpected and sometimes expensive repairs. I'm intrigued by the Ford Shelby GT350, which is now more available at sticker price, particularly the manual nature of that car. Yes, it's a bit of heresy(but at least the car's symbol is still a horse!). The car's flat plane crank does try to mimic the Ferrari sound - it's not really the same, but for $60K I didn't expect it would be. My friend bought one and I was impressed. The Recaro seats are not to my taste, but there is a comfort seat option for 2017 that could work for me. I also went for a test ride in the new Miata - enjoyed it, but it's not really comparable to a Ferrari (the Shelby really isn't either - interior materials are definitely several notches lower, but it is a lot of fun to drive), but it's a pretty cheap entry into what will definitely be an "occasional" driver. I also own a Moto Guzzi California 1400 Custom - an amazingly fun motorcycle - it's a heavy machine, very comfortable, with lots of electronic nannies and ABS to keep me under control. It keeps my Italian heritage alive, but my wife no longer rides with me, and I would never consider giving a young grandson a ride on it. If any of you are looking for the equivalent of a GT motorcycle I highly recommend it, and it has a very Italian exhaust note!

So, finally, my question. Do you think that the F430 or the 612 would scratch my Ferrari itch? What about running costs, future depreciation, etc.? I'm not against buying from a private seller, but I also don't mind paying a bit more to get a car from a top notch broker or franchised dealer to minimize future potential problems. Am I completely crazy to consider these cars? What about an alternative, like the Shelby, Miata, or the many used Porsches that always seem to be available?

Sorry for the long post, but it's been a while since I considered a Ferrari, and I've been absolutely amazed at the prices - I remember considering a 512TR for less than I paid to buy the 360 Spider - now that car is worth about the same as a 458 Italia! Or the 550 Maranello that was even less expensive, now worth more than a mint F430 spider! The moral is clear - never sell a Ferrari!

 

Thanks for the help. I agree that my choice is indeed new versus "used". I also realize that I'm more than a bit of a snob, in that I appreciate and enjoy my vehicles regardless of what others may think/say about my choices. When I drove my 360 spider I enjoyed every minute, whether I was at VIR trying to master the car and the course, or puttering along at 35 MPH on a small side street. The top was down all the time, even in a light mist. I didn't care what people thought about me or the car. It was my enjoyment, not meant to impress people or be gawked at. Getting to master the shifting gate without clanking was my daily high point.

My wife has a BMW335d - it's an automatic tranny (no manual was available with the diesel). The car pumps out 429 lb/ft of torque and it's available from 1600 RPM to near redline. The engine is a twin screw turbo - lots of fun. I considered an M3, even found a low mileage M3 manual tranny locally, but it's very similar to my wife's car and doesn't seem sufficiently different to buy the car. I was thinking that something different would be a better match - hence the Shelby and the Miata, but I'm open to suggestions.

As was mentioned, the 612 seems to be an interesting choice. I don't really know what pricing is for the cars - I've seen them below $70K and above $150K - each with a F1 tranny. At the lower end of those prices (sub $100K for a clean car) it has a lot of attraction. I've always loved 12 cylinder cars, having owned a BMW 850, and the thought of a Ferrari 12 is very appealing. Does anyone know about repair issues with this car?

The Shelby is a definite possibility, but somehow I am more concerned about "buyer's remorse" with that car. Yes, it has a "horsey" on it, but it's not the "horsey" I had before. Over the years I've had few American cars - not trying to avoid them or be a snob, I just preferred lighter weight, good handling machines with modest but usable horsepower to high HP "burnout" machines that were front heavy and didn't handle particularly well. I've owned several Alfas (GTV-6, 164LS, Spider), Fiat 850 spider (bought new for $2250 - I'm really old), Porsche 911, several BMWs - 850/3 Series/5 Series, and Mercedes, Jaguar and others for the "road car". My current stable is the 335d and an E350 Mercedes. Both are relatively new, easy to care for and accomplish what I want - a fun car for my wife (she's very aggressive with it when she's in the mood), and a comfortable ride for those 3 hour rides to see the kids. But neither of them is a Ferrari, has three pedals, or makes me want to just get in and drive for hours. The Moto Guzzi comes closest, and truth be told that's probably a good solution - it fits in my two car garage with my cars, and is fully manual. You can't drive a motorcycle without being fully engaged. No cup holders, radio or even a fairing - just the road and me. I've been riding for 40+ years, gave it up at least three times, but given a 2 car garage and fiscal prudence in retirement, it seems like a good solution.

The 550 is the car I should have bought when I got the 360. In fact, I could have bought a 550 AND the 360 for today's 550 price alone. That ship sailed for me - I have a very hard time buying one at current prices. The M5 is an interesting machine, but it's very heavy and has some upkeep quirks that are potentially expensive to fix. I've driven several, and while they're fun, they are more of the GT ride, not a sports ride. That's fine, but it seems like a bit of a compromise to me.

Still, the 612 has my interest as does the F430. The Shelby seems reasonable as well - likely will begin to lose residual value quickly as they will produce it again in 2018, and both the Camaro and Mustang updates make the non Shelby cars plenty potent for a therapeutic ride.

Thanks for the comment - please keep them coming. They are very welcome and helpful.

 

I just subscribed to the FML and checked out the current prices. The 612 seems to be a $135K car - pretty similar to a well cared for F430. I thought the 612 was quite a bit lower in price - what a difference a few years makes! At that price I may be less interested, but we'll see. The idea is finding the right car, not getting bogged down on pricing early on.

And so the discussion continues....

 

Good suggestions, and some reality. VR and others are suggesting my fear as well - I buy the Shelby, have a brief torrid affair, and then find that I bought the wrong "pony". I haven't done a burn-out since my teen years, and I'm likely not going to start now.

I just drove a 2014 Jaguar Type F, V6, automatic. The car on paper should be a strong contender. In reality the turbo lag is enough to drive you crazy. Has all the bells and whistles, but doesn't do it for me. The asking price was $49K.

I also visited the largest local Ford dealer - his 2017 350GT allocation is filled. He's a big dealer gets about 25 a year - all gone. He said he'll protect me on a 2018 if I want, and he'll sell it at sticker. Some discrepancy as to whether or not the 2018 GT350 gets a minor facelift. Most internet sites say no, the dealer isn't so sure. An option if I need it.

I'm also kicking myself about a MINT 2015 911 Carrera from a local seller about 3 months ago. It was black/black, MANUAL tranny, sport wheel, sunroof and not much else. 6K miles, could be a concours winner - the paint was perfect and he was a fanatic keeping that way. Still under warranty, he offered it me for $69K. I thought long and hard, didn't pull the trigger, and by the time I decided "why not?" it was gone.

Can anyone give me your experience with the F430? Is the cracked header problem unavoidable? Have many of you replaced the stock exhaust with an aftermarket version? Is that necessary? Any unusual clutch/tranny issues?

I've located two from a high quality independent dealer in my state. One is a 2007 spider, the other a 2008 coupe. Both are priced at $137,500. Colors are "OK" - grigio titanio/grey leather on the spider, 7K miles, mostly stock - including the exhaust. All black on the coupe., 11.5K miles, recent service from Continental Motorsports including filters, spark plugs, accessory belts, oil change, Ferrari upgraded stereo. Exhaust appears stock, but not certain.

No 612s around that I can find within 200 miles of me.

I looked into the 456 pretty hard when I bought the 360, but I decided that if I went that way I'd prefer the 456M version - that's hard to find now, and anything with 3 pedals is at a premium.

The other car I "let get away" was a brand new 2015 Aston Martin when AM was closing them out and put together a "factory special". The car was brand new from the authorized AM dealer in my state, and had a list price of $105K - that was nearly 35K lower than the same identical car the prior year due to AM trying to close out their inventory. The care was silver/black, the only downside was a ridiculous looking stripe along both flanks low on the door/fenders with some dumb lettering on it. Still, it was a manual new car, kind of rare, and priced in Porsche territory. That was probably as good as it was going to get.

I'm a bit amazed that only Porsche is still on the manual tranny bandwagon. I would think that there are enough of us who like three pedals that some smart manufacturer would cater to the obvious demand. Porsche has the new 2018 GT3 with a manual tranny - a heck of a car, and after that there's not much to pick from. My Porsche dealer told me that I probably can't get one - they will be limited and, like Ferrari, I haven't yet paid the "dealer tax" by buying a few cars from him already.

And I'm pretty sure that whether I consider a GT350, Camaro or Corvette, the car itself will be fine, but that voice in my head will say "Why did you settle when you know that's not what you want?" I'm afraid that a F1 tranny F430 may have the same voice in my head after our initial affair. What is it about manual transmissions? They are old, inefficient and make no sense, yet I love them.

 

Z - thanks for your post - I appreciate your thoughts about the GT350 and the rest of your fine garage. My best friend of 50+ years (high school) is a Ford fanatic, having owned everything from a Boss 429 (bought nearly new), the 2006 Ford GT, and many Mustangs, including the Boss 302 and a 2016 Shelby GT350. He's driven my cars, and I've driven his, but haven't yet tried his GT350 (he's in CA, I'm in NC).

He thinks my Ferrari fixation is kind of crazy - he enjoyed driving my car, and has driven both the F430 and 458 Italia at Willow Springs several times. He does track his GT350, and he's an exceptional driver. I have neither his skills, or his nerve, to drive as he does. I'm pretty sure I could take a 458 on the track and he can drive a Miata and give me a run for my money. He thinks that the GT350 will give me "all I want" and more. He agrees that below 3500-4000 RPMs there is not as much excitement as on the higher end of the tach, but as he says, not many cars that I drive/enjoy have lots of torque on the low end anyway.

I must admit I loved his Ford GT, and he allowed me to play with it at Willow Springs - quite a good friend! I took it and played, and he ran right behind me with a stock Mustang GT. When he took the wheel of the GT he beat my time by such an embarrassing amount that we both laughed.

Anyway, the point is that I don't drive like he does, and never did/could. I enjoy playing on the track, but typically as I approach 8/10s, I'm about as far as I'm going. He's a solid 10/10 on the track. Since I'm not doing that, I'm not really worried about a 177 MPH top speed - which he regularly hits on various tracks.

I wonder if every Ferrari is overkill for me. I live in a mid sized city, and radar/laser is heavily used everywhere. In 2nd gear I'm over the limit with any Ferrari, and most other high end sports cars. That's where the Miata came in - it's a lot of fun to drive a slow car fast, and not very much fun to drive a fast car slow.

By the way, he also took my commuter VW Passat Manual transmission TDI to VIR and reached 106 MPH. That may not sound impressive, but VW lists the top speed of the car at 110, and he was riding stock tires with 20K miles on them.

Thanks to everyone for the posts/opinions/thoughts. They really are helping me narrow my focus and reach a decision. In retrospect, I wish I had given more thought to the Aston Martin or the Porsche. Both would have been ideal.

 

I think part of the problem with the F type was the transmission. It's an 8 speed and seemed sometimes to get "confused" when trying to decide what gear to select. Shows you how little I know about the Jag - I just assumed it was a turbo. Surprisingly the salesperson didn't correct me. Kind of scary that she didn't know the difference either.

It was a nice car, reasonably priced as well, but it just didn't seem to be "the one".

When I passed on the 2015 Porsche 911 my reasons were two: I just was beginning retirement and didn't want to draw out so much cash. Now I realize my problem isn't how big my asset base is, it's how much time is left on the clock! Or as my son puts it: "Dad, you may not want to invest in LED lights that last 20 years!" He's got a point.

The second reason was that Porsche just introduced a turbo as part of the base 911 package, and I wanted to see if that made a significant difference in the car. Most reviewers since then have been very positive on the turbo engine, suggesting that it fills in the lower end torque and power - something that I admit was a bit lacking during my test drive. On the other hand, I don't know that the difference for my needs is exceptionally significant.

To replace the 2015 with a 2017 similarly equipped will be $30K more expensive. That hurts, but I don't think the car will ever fall to zero, so there will be some residual value, even if it's less than expected. It's going to largely be my children's problem - I'd likely never sell it. Same thing if I get another Ferrari - this time it's got to be exactly what I want since I don't want to go through this again.

The suggestion to consider a manual Aston Martin that's a few years old is a good idea as well. The newer cars aren't that significantly different, the larger engine is nice, but again I'm not looking for top speed, I'm more interested in a finely crafted machine, and I'll adapt to whatever performance level it provides.

So far - Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin are in the "cars to consider" pile. I'm mixed on the GT350, but frankly that needs to be there as well. No reason to eliminate possible solutions until I get further into the decision process.

Again, my thanks to all.