I Miss my 360 3 pedal - What is the replacement?

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by lencap, May 18, 2017.

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  1. lencap

    lencap Formula Junior

    Nov 20, 2003
    255
    Raleigh, NC
    #1 lencap, May 18, 2017
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
    Greetings -

    A few years ago, in a fit of fear as I contemplated a new clutch, catalytic converter replacement, and a few other odds and ends, I decided to sell my 3 pedal 360 spider. The timing was perfect - for the buyer. I sold it just before the 3 pedal cars moved higher, watching my "ex" gain significantly over the last few years. But that's life, and no point getting upset about it.

    The question now is: If I want to replace my 360 spider, in today's market, what's the best way to go? Some info: I'm a "senior citizen" - that means someone stole my 35 year old body and gave me this one -- complete with arthritis and decades worth of wear and tear. My wife also shares my arthritis and even though I enjoy a great sports car, I wonder about those low seats over the coming years.

    I have always had a manual transmission sports car, and the thought of a F1 bothers me. On the other hand, having driven the F430 and newer cars, I must admit that in those cars an F1 transmission is a very good match - getting the most out of the car all the time. The issue is I'm no longer looking to get every ounce of testosterone into my driving experience, and having a car shift in 60 microseconds isn't necessarily as much fun as "rowing your own".

    I also have 3 grandsons - all under 8 years old. The idea of a "2+2" has some appeal as I can see myself in a more comfortable car (sorry, at my age I actually think of that) and have room for the grandkids. I live 90 miles from one child, 175 to the other - perfect distances to enjoy a nice ride, particularly on back roads.

    So, my thought is to consider a F430 if I want to replace the 360 spider, or maybe a 612 if I want the 2+2. As I consider these cars I believe that at current prices the F430 F1 is very reasonable ($100-135K or so), but I'm unsure about earlier 2005-2006 versus the later 2008+ cars. Your thoughts are invited. I've heard some horror stories from owners about replacement cost for the CCB brakes, along with the common header problems and exhaust issues. I don't like aftermarket exhausts - too loud and not enjoyable, at least for me.

    The 612 F1 has a pretty wide price range, likely because there are fewer of them, but I'm sure with a little work I can find an appropriate car. The 612 manual transmission cars seem to have moved to levels far beyond my idea of reasonable. I don't know very much about this model, having only sat in one, unlike the F430 which I've been able to drive several times. Your experiences are welcome.

    Finally, I've also considered other cars - largely to avoid my prior history of unexpected and sometimes expensive repairs. I'm intrigued by the Ford Shelby GT350, which is now more available at sticker price, particularly the manual nature of that car. Yes, it's a bit of heresy(but at least the car's symbol is still a horse!). The car's flat plane crank does try to mimic the Ferrari sound - it's not really the same, but for $60K I didn't expect it would be. My friend bought one and I was impressed. The Recaro seats are not to my taste, but there is a comfort seat option for 2017 that could work for me. I also went for a test ride in the new Miata - enjoyed it, but it's not really comparable to a Ferrari (the Shelby really isn't either - interior materials are definitely several notches lower, but it is a lot of fun to drive), but it's a pretty cheap entry into what will definitely be an "occasional" driver. I also own a Moto Guzzi California 1400 Custom - an amazingly fun motorcycle - it's a heavy machine, very comfortable, with lots of electronic nannies and ABS to keep me under control. It keeps my Italian heritage alive, but my wife no longer rides with me, and I would never consider giving a young grandson a ride on it. If any of you are looking for the equivalent of a GT motorcycle I highly recommend it, and it has a very Italian exhaust note!

    So, finally, my question. Do you think that the F430 or the 612 would scratch my Ferrari itch? What about running costs, future depreciation, etc.? I'm not against buying from a private seller, but I also don't mind paying a bit more to get a car from a top notch broker or franchised dealer to minimize future potential problems. Am I completely crazy to consider these cars? What about an alternative, like the Shelby, Miata, or the many used Porsches that always seem to be available?

    Sorry for the long post, but it's been a while since I considered a Ferrari, and I've been absolutely amazed at the prices - I remember considering a 512TR for less than I paid to buy the 360 Spider - now that car is worth about the same as a 458 Italia! Or the 550 Maranello that was even less expensive, now worth more than a mint F430 spider! The moral is clear - never sell a Ferrari!
     
  2. Jaguar36

    Jaguar36 Rookie

    Nov 8, 2010
    32
    NJ
    Sounds to me like the best choice would be the GT350. It should be very reliable, and if you do have issues repairs are dirt cheap compared to a Ferrari. The grandsons will love it, and won't care what badge it has on it.

    The 612 is also a great choice though but its running costs will be alot higher. It'd be alot more exclusive and you'll get looks from a different crowd with it.

    End of the day I think you're looking at the classic new vs used decision. Do you want a new car with a warranty that is unlikely to have major issues, or a used car which will cost more to maintain, but has a much higher quality interior?
     
  3. HH11

    HH11 F1 Rookie

    Sep 4, 2010
    2,824
    Just throwing it out there, but I think an E9x M3 would be a lot of fun and fit your needs. It's also a hell of a lot cheaper. ($25-40k depending on factors)

    6 speed trans available, 4 real adult sized seats, comfortable, pretty solid in terms of reliability.

    Three versions were made, that's why i wrote "E9x"

    E92-coupe
    E93-convertible
    E90-sedan
     
  4. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Could you stretch to a 550 Maranello? It would be more comfortable, guaranteed to have the manual you love...and just so spectacular looking.

    An E39 M5 or E60 M5 would be a nice addition for fun with the grandkids when they're all together...
     
  5. lencap

    lencap Formula Junior

    Nov 20, 2003
    255
    Raleigh, NC
    Thanks for the help. I agree that my choice is indeed new versus "used". I also realize that I'm more than a bit of a snob, in that I appreciate and enjoy my vehicles regardless of what others may think/say about my choices. When I drove my 360 spider I enjoyed every minute, whether I was at VIR trying to master the car and the course, or puttering along at 35 MPH on a small side street. The top was down all the time, even in a light mist. I didn't care what people thought about me or the car. It was my enjoyment, not meant to impress people or be gawked at. Getting to master the shifting gate without clanking was my daily high point.

    My wife has a BMW335d - it's an automatic tranny (no manual was available with the diesel). The car pumps out 429 lb/ft of torque and it's available from 1600 RPM to near redline. The engine is a twin screw turbo - lots of fun. I considered an M3, even found a low mileage M3 manual tranny locally, but it's very similar to my wife's car and doesn't seem sufficiently different to buy the car. I was thinking that something different would be a better match - hence the Shelby and the Miata, but I'm open to suggestions.

    As was mentioned, the 612 seems to be an interesting choice. I don't really know what pricing is for the cars - I've seen them below $70K and above $150K - each with a F1 tranny. At the lower end of those prices (sub $100K for a clean car) it has a lot of attraction. I've always loved 12 cylinder cars, having owned a BMW 850, and the thought of a Ferrari 12 is very appealing. Does anyone know about repair issues with this car?

    The Shelby is a definite possibility, but somehow I am more concerned about "buyer's remorse" with that car. Yes, it has a "horsey" on it, but it's not the "horsey" I had before. Over the years I've had few American cars - not trying to avoid them or be a snob, I just preferred lighter weight, good handling machines with modest but usable horsepower to high HP "burnout" machines that were front heavy and didn't handle particularly well. I've owned several Alfas (GTV-6, 164LS, Spider), Fiat 850 spider (bought new for $2250 - I'm really old), Porsche 911, several BMWs - 850/3 Series/5 Series, and Mercedes, Jaguar and others for the "road car". My current stable is the 335d and an E350 Mercedes. Both are relatively new, easy to care for and accomplish what I want - a fun car for my wife (she's very aggressive with it when she's in the mood), and a comfortable ride for those 3 hour rides to see the kids. But neither of them is a Ferrari, has three pedals, or makes me want to just get in and drive for hours. The Moto Guzzi comes closest, and truth be told that's probably a good solution - it fits in my two car garage with my cars, and is fully manual. You can't drive a motorcycle without being fully engaged. No cup holders, radio or even a fairing - just the road and me. I've been riding for 40+ years, gave it up at least three times, but given a 2 car garage and fiscal prudence in retirement, it seems like a good solution.

    The 550 is the car I should have bought when I got the 360. In fact, I could have bought a 550 AND the 360 for today's 550 price alone. That ship sailed for me - I have a very hard time buying one at current prices. The M5 is an interesting machine, but it's very heavy and has some upkeep quirks that are potentially expensive to fix. I've driven several, and while they're fun, they are more of the GT ride, not a sports ride. That's fine, but it seems like a bit of a compromise to me.

    Still, the 612 has my interest as does the F430. The Shelby seems reasonable as well - likely will begin to lose residual value quickly as they will produce it again in 2018, and both the Camaro and Mustang updates make the non Shelby cars plenty potent for a therapeutic ride.

    Thanks for the comment - please keep them coming. They are very welcome and helpful.
     
  6. lencap

    lencap Formula Junior

    Nov 20, 2003
    255
    Raleigh, NC
    I just subscribed to the FML and checked out the current prices. The 612 seems to be a $135K car - pretty similar to a well cared for F430. I thought the 612 was quite a bit lower in price - what a difference a few years makes! At that price I may be less interested, but we'll see. The idea is finding the right car, not getting bogged down on pricing early on.

    And so the discussion continues....
     
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  8. ar4me

    ar4me F1 Rookie
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    You can get early MY (2005-2006) 612 for less than that. The OTOs (2008 and beyond) will be at the higher end. Note that the 612 is subject to sticky switch gear (like all Ferraris), but it has A LOT of switches and plastic to rectify - ask me how I know... It is also subject to shrinking dash leather, again, like most Ferraris... Those are costly corrections on a 612, even if you do the labor of pulling it all apart and reassemble yourself... It honestly sounds like a front engine V12 GT car will suit you better than the mid engine V8s, and on paper the 612 seems like a good option.
     
  9. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    5,768
    I am afraid you are no longer a candidate for a Ferrari (at least a modern one.)

    I am in the same boat (wanting M tranny and complete with arthritis,...)

    Do not fret, there are Lamborghinis for all out sports cars, Audi has made them tolerably reliable.
    There are Aston Martins for sleek GT, and there are Mustangs, Dodge Demons, Corvettes,... all without F1 trannies.
     
  10. 338Lapua

    338Lapua Karting

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    I'll provide my opinion...

    Before I bought my 430, I considered a GT350R. I like the looks, the flat plane crank but in the end it isn't a Ferrari. Keep in mind that I worked at Ford for 15 years and was a Ford owner prior to my stint at the automaker so I have been a Ford fan for some time. But in the end it doesn't have the "special" feeling that I get when driving in my 430. Don;t get me wrong, I like the GT350 and have even considered buying one, but in the end I look at my Ferrari and I ask the question, "what will the GT350 offer me over my 430?". My answer is, "nothing". I get in my 430 and see the humped fenders in front of me and that red intake behind me and I understand why I bought the car.

    I have a feeling that if you were to buy a GT350, in less than a month, you'll regret the decision especially after having owned a 360. I would personally look at the 430 as it is very close to your previous 360 albeit there are vehicle and powertrain upgrades.

    YMMV.

    Tony
     
  11. Enzojr

    Enzojr F1 Veteran
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    Maybe a 456 ?
    Older but if you find one that has been well cared for and well maintained, you will have plenty left over for parts/repairs.
    As far as Ferraris with back seats, I just prefer the look of the 456 over the 612.
    Manual 456s are going up in price, at least it appears that way to me.
     
  12. Statler

    Statler F1 Veteran
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  13. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    I will NEVER own a Mustang. Well.. never say never. I may one day decide that I want to leave cars and coffee and run something over. ;) Until then, I don't care how fast they are or how competent they are. I could never leave a restaurant or store walk outside and see one of the three mustangs at any one time in the parking lot and say to myself: "Oh there's my car." I . Just. Can't. :)

    When the time for the little peep is in our lives and I want to share that experience, I'm going to use my 997 or perhaps at a later time a 991. Consider them, they're great cars.

    I've also considered a Cali perhaps as a 2+2. It's comfortable and the children could go in the back. 612 is also really cool. I wonder though if the car market is cooling... of course, I'll never sell my 3 pedal 360. :)
     
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  15. NoSpeedLimit

    NoSpeedLimit Karting

    Sep 6, 2013
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    What about a Maserati 4200? Seats four. So, even in 10 years 2 of your grandsons would fit in. Unluckily only 8 cylinders. No serious problems known and the engine has some genes from the 430.
     
  16. David Lind

    David Lind Formula 3

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    A 5 or 6 year old barely used Aston Martin DB 9 w/ a manual would fit your bill. In fact, I just saw a door Aston Rapide, barely used, for about $80.
     
  17. lencap

    lencap Formula Junior

    Nov 20, 2003
    255
    Raleigh, NC
    Good suggestions, and some reality. VR and others are suggesting my fear as well - I buy the Shelby, have a brief torrid affair, and then find that I bought the wrong "pony". I haven't done a burn-out since my teen years, and I'm likely not going to start now.

    I just drove a 2014 Jaguar Type F, V6, automatic. The car on paper should be a strong contender. In reality the turbo lag is enough to drive you crazy. Has all the bells and whistles, but doesn't do it for me. The asking price was $49K.

    I also visited the largest local Ford dealer - his 2017 350GT allocation is filled. He's a big dealer gets about 25 a year - all gone. He said he'll protect me on a 2018 if I want, and he'll sell it at sticker. Some discrepancy as to whether or not the 2018 GT350 gets a minor facelift. Most internet sites say no, the dealer isn't so sure. An option if I need it.

    I'm also kicking myself about a MINT 2015 911 Carrera from a local seller about 3 months ago. It was black/black, MANUAL tranny, sport wheel, sunroof and not much else. 6K miles, could be a concours winner - the paint was perfect and he was a fanatic keeping that way. Still under warranty, he offered it me for $69K. I thought long and hard, didn't pull the trigger, and by the time I decided "why not?" it was gone.

    Can anyone give me your experience with the F430? Is the cracked header problem unavoidable? Have many of you replaced the stock exhaust with an aftermarket version? Is that necessary? Any unusual clutch/tranny issues?

    I've located two from a high quality independent dealer in my state. One is a 2007 spider, the other a 2008 coupe. Both are priced at $137,500. Colors are "OK" - grigio titanio/grey leather on the spider, 7K miles, mostly stock - including the exhaust. All black on the coupe., 11.5K miles, recent service from Continental Motorsports including filters, spark plugs, accessory belts, oil change, Ferrari upgraded stereo. Exhaust appears stock, but not certain.

    No 612s around that I can find within 200 miles of me.

    I looked into the 456 pretty hard when I bought the 360, but I decided that if I went that way I'd prefer the 456M version - that's hard to find now, and anything with 3 pedals is at a premium.

    The other car I "let get away" was a brand new 2015 Aston Martin when AM was closing them out and put together a "factory special". The car was brand new from the authorized AM dealer in my state, and had a list price of $105K - that was nearly 35K lower than the same identical car the prior year due to AM trying to close out their inventory. The care was silver/black, the only downside was a ridiculous looking stripe along both flanks low on the door/fenders with some dumb lettering on it. Still, it was a manual new car, kind of rare, and priced in Porsche territory. That was probably as good as it was going to get.

    I'm a bit amazed that only Porsche is still on the manual tranny bandwagon. I would think that there are enough of us who like three pedals that some smart manufacturer would cater to the obvious demand. Porsche has the new 2018 GT3 with a manual tranny - a heck of a car, and after that there's not much to pick from. My Porsche dealer told me that I probably can't get one - they will be limited and, like Ferrari, I haven't yet paid the "dealer tax" by buying a few cars from him already.

    And I'm pretty sure that whether I consider a GT350, Camaro or Corvette, the car itself will be fine, but that voice in my head will say "Why did you settle when you know that's not what you want?" I'm afraid that a F1 tranny F430 may have the same voice in my head after our initial affair. What is it about manual transmissions? They are old, inefficient and make no sense, yet I love them.
     
  18. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    5,768
    Porsche, Lamborghini, Corvette, Aston Martin all have 3 pedal trannies.

    Buy from a manufacturer that understands what you want!
     
  19. Zcobra1

    Zcobra1 Formula Junior
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    I have a GT350, along with a 360, 97 Viper GTS, and 13 C6Z06. The GT350 fills
    a spot of a nice all around car. Roomy, ok rear seats, easy to drive in traffic,
    see out of, comfortable( I have the sofa seats) handles good, great brakes, and a nice engine, but....
    You need to keep the boil on the motor if you want to move it, if you track
    it sounds like most like it for track work.

    A lot of Porsche drivers have one for daily and track time, so can not be all bad.
    It is a fun car. That said, I do not share the rabid enthusiasm, and comments like
    "It feels 500 pounds lighter than it is" make me chuckle.....to me it is a great
    all around GT car, and I can definitely feel the weight and somewhat less refined
    shock/ rebound tuning, but for the money it is probably a Best Buy for what it does.

    That said, reading your comments, I would steer you to a nice used 991 Carrera,
    you have the back seats in case you need them, and try out a 991 with Sport
    plus PDK, I know not manual, and I also covet manuals, but you may be surprised.
    Or a little more budget a couple year old Turbo, probably best all around car
    on the planet, if you only had one. I am looking at dumping the GT350 and
    getting into a late model Carrera S or GTS myself, maybe a Turbo.
     
  20. lencap

    lencap Formula Junior

    Nov 20, 2003
    255
    Raleigh, NC
    Z - thanks for your post - I appreciate your thoughts about the GT350 and the rest of your fine garage. My best friend of 50+ years (high school) is a Ford fanatic, having owned everything from a Boss 429 (bought nearly new), the 2006 Ford GT, and many Mustangs, including the Boss 302 and a 2016 Shelby GT350. He's driven my cars, and I've driven his, but haven't yet tried his GT350 (he's in CA, I'm in NC).

    He thinks my Ferrari fixation is kind of crazy - he enjoyed driving my car, and has driven both the F430 and 458 Italia at Willow Springs several times. He does track his GT350, and he's an exceptional driver. I have neither his skills, or his nerve, to drive as he does. I'm pretty sure I could take a 458 on the track and he can drive a Miata and give me a run for my money. He thinks that the GT350 will give me "all I want" and more. He agrees that below 3500-4000 RPMs there is not as much excitement as on the higher end of the tach, but as he says, not many cars that I drive/enjoy have lots of torque on the low end anyway.

    I must admit I loved his Ford GT, and he allowed me to play with it at Willow Springs - quite a good friend! I took it and played, and he ran right behind me with a stock Mustang GT. When he took the wheel of the GT he beat my time by such an embarrassing amount that we both laughed.

    Anyway, the point is that I don't drive like he does, and never did/could. I enjoy playing on the track, but typically as I approach 8/10s, I'm about as far as I'm going. He's a solid 10/10 on the track. Since I'm not doing that, I'm not really worried about a 177 MPH top speed - which he regularly hits on various tracks.

    I wonder if every Ferrari is overkill for me. I live in a mid sized city, and radar/laser is heavily used everywhere. In 2nd gear I'm over the limit with any Ferrari, and most other high end sports cars. That's where the Miata came in - it's a lot of fun to drive a slow car fast, and not very much fun to drive a fast car slow.

    By the way, he also took my commuter VW Passat Manual transmission TDI to VIR and reached 106 MPH. That may not sound impressive, but VW lists the top speed of the car at 110, and he was riding stock tires with 20K miles on them.

    Thanks to everyone for the posts/opinions/thoughts. They really are helping me narrow my focus and reach a decision. In retrospect, I wish I had given more thought to the Aston Martin or the Porsche. Both would have been ideal.
     
  21. ar4me

    ar4me F1 Rookie
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    When my son was about 10 years old I replaced my 997 911 Turbo with the 612 since he complained about lack of space in the back in the 911, and I wanted a special car the entire family could go in - and it was a good excuse for me to try something else ;) Just a heads up that if you plan to ferry your grand children around in the 911 you could face similar "complaints" as they grow. Since being able to take more people is part of your plan, I would make sure to assess the ability of each of the cars you are considering.
     
  22. 19633500GT

    19633500GT Formula 3
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    F Type would of had a supercharger, not a turbo.

    Surprised you had lag issues, typically the SC is there to negate Turbo lag issues.
     
  23. lencap

    lencap Formula Junior

    Nov 20, 2003
    255
    Raleigh, NC
    I think part of the problem with the F type was the transmission. It's an 8 speed and seemed sometimes to get "confused" when trying to decide what gear to select. Shows you how little I know about the Jag - I just assumed it was a turbo. Surprisingly the salesperson didn't correct me. Kind of scary that she didn't know the difference either.

    It was a nice car, reasonably priced as well, but it just didn't seem to be "the one".

    When I passed on the 2015 Porsche 911 my reasons were two: I just was beginning retirement and didn't want to draw out so much cash. Now I realize my problem isn't how big my asset base is, it's how much time is left on the clock! Or as my son puts it: "Dad, you may not want to invest in LED lights that last 20 years!" He's got a point.

    The second reason was that Porsche just introduced a turbo as part of the base 911 package, and I wanted to see if that made a significant difference in the car. Most reviewers since then have been very positive on the turbo engine, suggesting that it fills in the lower end torque and power - something that I admit was a bit lacking during my test drive. On the other hand, I don't know that the difference for my needs is exceptionally significant.

    To replace the 2015 with a 2017 similarly equipped will be $30K more expensive. That hurts, but I don't think the car will ever fall to zero, so there will be some residual value, even if it's less than expected. It's going to largely be my children's problem - I'd likely never sell it. Same thing if I get another Ferrari - this time it's got to be exactly what I want since I don't want to go through this again.

    The suggestion to consider a manual Aston Martin that's a few years old is a good idea as well. The newer cars aren't that significantly different, the larger engine is nice, but again I'm not looking for top speed, I'm more interested in a finely crafted machine, and I'll adapt to whatever performance level it provides.

    So far - Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin are in the "cars to consider" pile. I'm mixed on the GT350, but frankly that needs to be there as well. No reason to eliminate possible solutions until I get further into the decision process.

    Again, my thanks to all.
     
  24. ryalex

    ryalex F1 World Champ
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    You can get Vantages all day long under $70k (even under $45k), and Aston apparently offers some aggressive warranties for their older models. If you want a newer manual that is something to consider. They're quick but not blazing fast, handling is nicely weighted, and you can wring it out a bit for some loud noise without going to jail.

    I haven't driven a DB9 manual, but they're out there. "JimShadow" loves his. If your knees hurt, some of the comments on the manual DB9 is that the clutch is light to push.
     
  25. 19633500GT

    19633500GT Formula 3
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    I would find the nicest, low mileage X50 996 Turbo and snap it up.

    I will be buying one as a nice 10-15 year hold soon. Balls fun, HP to the heavens, and I'll bet the appreciation curve is going to be pretty nice.
     
  26. ryalex

    ryalex F1 World Champ
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    One of my favorite commercials ever
    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MCkF19QF7c[/ame]
     
  27. 19633500GT

    19633500GT Formula 3
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  28. ryalex

    ryalex F1 World Champ
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    That's my wife, BTW. She likes practical gifts like appliances. My second son too. A few Christmases ago he wanted an electric pencil sharpener.

    I like toys. :D
     
  29. DGS

    DGS Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #27 DGS, May 19, 2017
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
    Before twisting yourself in knots over three pedals, consider the better paddles.

    The early F1 boxes were like a bear on a bicycle: it's not how well he rides, it's that he does it at all. :p

    But the newer twin clutch boxes are pretty good.

    I had serious qualms about giving up the third pedal, but rheumatoid arthritis had me wanting to hedge my bets.
    In my case, it's the right knee, but my ankle can still heel & toe the 328.
    But for my DD, having the option to left foot brake buffered against the future.
    So, with huge trepidation, I got an EVO X MR with the Getrag twin clutch --- the baby brother of the box in a Cali or 456.
    This was my first "two pedal" car since '73.

    But I'm not finding the twin clutch to be a "disappointment". I still do my own shifting. There are just fewer steps involved.

    Not all TCs are programmed equal. The same Getrag from the 456 is used in a Merc -- but tuned less on edge.
    (I saw an article online, a while back, exploring why the same box in a Merc seemed "worse".)

    That said, you might want to consider a Ferrari California spider. Twin clutch, tiny rear seat, and a Ferrari badge.

    If you don't need the folding top and want a cheaper option, there's the Alfa Giulia QF. But that may be just a better M3. ;)
    The Alfa has a paddle operated slush box, rather than a twin clutch, but it's reportedly a very good paddle box, and *may* be more reliable.
    (There's been a mad rush to TC boxes, resulting in some newer ones with "teething" issues.)

    As for the low seats, I do find that a folding cane can be handy for climbing out of the 328. ;)
    But then, with the top on, getting out of the 328 was always a bit like rolling out onto the ground and then doing push-ups. :p
     
  30. cscott

    cscott Formula Junior

    Dec 31, 2002
    462
    New Orleans
    Full Name:
    Chris Scott
    Get a Maserati GranTurismo. Italian, sounds great, looks great, real back seats you can sit in unlike 911 or AM, soft or hard top, good prices on late models.
     
  31. Qksilver

    Qksilver F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 11, 2005
    3,342
    Philadelphia
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    Joe G.
    996 Turbo, or Cayman GT4 if you can manage 2 seats.
     
  32. alexion

    alexion Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    May 20, 2013
    246
    New York
    Ferrari Mondial T - Valeo ;)
     
  33. Igor Ound

    Igor Ound F1 Veteran

    Sep 30, 2012
    5,415
    The Horn
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    Igor Ound
  34. greybeast

    greybeast Karting

    Nov 15, 2011
    190
    Long Island
    My perspective on these three comes from ownership/ personal experience.

    The E39 M5 is probably my favorite of all the cars I've owned. Pretty fast, sounds phenomenal with mild exhaust modification and you can toss it around with traction control off like a sports car. Also vault-like and plenty of room for 4-5 people. You can pick up a nice one for around $25-30k. Repairs expensive but an order of magnitude lower than ferrari running cost.

    F355 is a mid-engine screamer, probably a little more analog than your 360, but I've never driven a 360. Nice spiders can be had in the 60k range. Some people like the F1s but the sticks are readily available. I have had mine in for a major for the past few months and I seriously miss the top-down driving with associated sounds and i really miss the shifting, which brings me to the......

    612. I've had this beast since october and it's great. I have four young kids and use the back seats all the time. Two average sized adults can sit one behind the other in comfort. The car is almost too fast in a straight line and remarkably nimble. Also, it sounds awesome (mine is 2009 OTO, earlier non-HGTC models were very quiet), and the interior is really rich and smells like a tannery. This car is pretty refined but it likes to play when asked. Sticks are prohibitively expensive so u shoiuld probably stick with '05/'06 if u want to spend $80-$90k or 2009-10 OTO, if you want more features, faster shifting and a bit more power. These are in the $135-$165 range.

    Good luck hunting!!

    Vic
     
  35. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 13, 2009
    10,507
    Charleston, SC
    Full Name:
    Curt
    lencap, life is too short. Don't compromise one bit unless you quite frankly can't afford it.

    I went to a funeral last weekend for my nurses sister. She was 33 and died of a stroke!

    You know what you want. You know where you want to be and it sounds like you want it be a Ferrari or you wouldn't be here. There's a stick 360 that's got a ton of miles with an ask of $45k on fleabay. That could be your final option if you want. Buy it and drive it forever.
    Don't do the Aston. They british POS. Every idiot I know are buying them for $3x,xxx. They're going to depreciate to $2x,xxx like the DB7. They're essentially Jags. Lead anchors. You're going to see a Ferrari on the road and wonder why you didn't buy it. Test the 612, test drive the 430.. and make the call.

    Life is too short to compromise my friend. :)
     
  36. ar4me

    ar4me F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Apr 4, 2010
    2,762
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    Jes
    Don't think there is any difference in power. Mine is an 07 HGTC - cruising on freeway I actually wouldn't mind being able to close the exhaust valves... open at 3000 RPM....
     
  37. greybeast

    greybeast Karting

    Nov 15, 2011
    190
    Long Island
    Jes,

    Thats funny...I actually do not have the HGT2 exhaust, so i pulled and plugged the vacuum line hoses so that I could hear it while cruising and during downshifts. Its a bit tamer than the sport exhaust.

    The power rating is the same for both generations, 540 hp, but some have suggested that the later F133H models may have a bit more power. No clue if it is true.

    Love your scag by the way. Probably my favorite spec...silverstone over cuoio.

    Vic
     
  38. ar4me

    ar4me F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Apr 4, 2010
    2,762
    Southern California
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    Jes
    Too funny... :) Though, the 612 OTO definitely preferred over the 2005-2007. Mid/late 2007 preferred over the 2005-early 2007 due to upgraded Nav/entertainment. The valves are done smarter on the 430 Scuderia (and probably later models) as they open as a function of throttle position and not just RPM...
     
  39. lencap

    lencap Formula Junior

    Nov 20, 2003
    255
    Raleigh, NC
    I very much appreciate these replies - very useful information and suggestions.

    On the way back from a meeting today I just happened to stop at the Ferrari dealer 15 minutes before closing time. They had a very well priced and serviced 2005 F430 F1, under 20K miles, nicely equipped. I read the ad on their site, and was surprised that the car was MUCH nicer than I expected, especially at the price (under $110K). Red/tan as well.

    I decided, as has been suggested, that at this stage of my life time is more important than money, and I was ready to buy the F430 from the dealer, only to find that it had sold 90 minutes earlier. I was pretty disappointed, and then I realized - if I was disappointed by NOT having a Ferrari, then maybe HAVING a Ferrari would be the answer to "What's Next?".

    So reading more of your posts the suggestions to consider a 612/F430/California seems very reasonable. The problem is comparing them since they're not easily found, and taking Ferraris for test rides isn't all that easy. But, at least that seems like a good place to start.

    In terms of pricing I thought that a dealer serviced reasonable mileage 2005 F430 under $110K was a good deal, especially red/tan nicely equipped. Is it hard to find similar cars at that price? FML has the API closer to $135K or so.

    On a relative basis, if the F430 is $120K or so, what should I expect for a similar condition 612 or California in today's market? I'd prefer to buy from an authorized dealer, or high quality independent. I'd consider a private sale, but I'm not sure how complete the PPI would be if the independent didn't have access to a Ferrari computer to measure clutch wear, etc.

    I also appreciate everyone's help in getting my priority clear and avoiding a rather high probability of severe "buyers remorse" if I brought home a "Pony" car that was the wrong Pony, or buying into a car that had Lucas electronics in it's family tree (it feels good to have my old Ferrari Mojo back).

    I'd welcome your thoughts about future depreciation/upkeep costs among these cars. I'm not too concerned about either, but I'd like to know the nuances between 2005-6 F430 versus 2008-9 in terms of upkeep and problems, as well as the same info for the 612 and California. Personal experience is much appreciated, as is the info you've already provided.

    I remember years ago when a FCA member graciously gave me a "hot lap" in his car at VIR. I expected the heavy 12 cylinder to be a bit of a "dog" on the track - how wrong I was. It clearly didn't handle like a mid engine V8, but the torque had me laughing out loud. I'd imagine the 612 is similar, but I have no direct experience with that car or the California. The internet is filled with opinions on these cars, but there is nothing more valuable to me than direct owner experience, as well as that from those of you with other first hand knowledge.

    Thanks in advance, and I look forward to more constructive ideas/feedback/suggestions.

    PS: I'm struggling with the choice of smaller/nimble/sport focused (F430) versus GT (612), or something in-between (California). Any comparisons and/or observations are welcome. I also appreciate the fine comments about F1 versus manual, especially the newer F1 versions.
     
  40. ar4me

    ar4me F1 Rookie
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    Apr 4, 2010
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    Jes
    Note that most good independents do have the Ferrari computer and can do the exact same thing the dealer can in terms of reading wear of clutch (on F1 cars) etc.
     
  41. greybeast

    greybeast Karting

    Nov 15, 2011
    190
    Long Island
    Lencap, the thread title begins "I miss my 360 3-pedal....". I think the first point in your decision tree might be whether or not it need be replaced with a 3 pedal car. The ferrari options significantly narrow if the answer is yes. Or is the priority that it must be from maranello? That would be A possible way to focus your search quickly.

    I find it so much fun hunting for cars that even a complete stranger's pursuit brings me joy. I wish you luck!!
     
  42. lencap

    lencap Formula Junior

    Nov 20, 2003
    255
    Raleigh, NC
    Thanks to all for the helpful replies. I've been doing a lot of research, and I need a bit more advice before I'm ready to make a decision.

    In today's marketplace, with lots of performance oriented cars, does it still make sense to consider cars like the F430 or the 612, when you can purchase cars that have full new car warranties, and are far less likely to provide an unexpected financial surprise?

    For example, the last three F430s I looked at each had ongoing issues with the exhaust headers - even in cars where the original had been replaced - were approaching the time for new catalytic converters - that most owners don't replace and move to flow through exhausts. I realize why they made the switch, but frankly the markedly louder exhaust isn't very enjoyable over a three hour ride.

    I'm not too concerned with depreciation, but I am worried about continued repairs, especially as the car's electronics continue to age. Many F430s are now 10+ years old, and I'm concerned about how to service these cars 10 years from now. If I do decide to rejoin the Ferrari family, whatever car I buy will be my last - I don't expect it to be service free, but if parts aren't readily available in the future, or if repairs are constant that will take a lot of the joy out of ownership.

    Thoughts?
     
  43. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Two Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    23,944
    Texas!
    If it's sound you're looking, you can't beat a F360 with a Tubi. But, you probably already know that.
     
  44. RonH

    RonH Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    May 29, 2016
    107
    Corona Del Mar, California
    Full Name:
    Ron H
    Lencap, you indicated age and arthritis issues. My wife had an SL and I hated it because I found it impossible to get in and out of due to arthritis in my hips. The Cali, 430 and other Ferrari V8s will all have similar issues because of the low slung chassis. I have a 612 and I have no such issues. It is amazing what a difference a couple of inches of height will make when you are old and decrepit. 😀

    Based on all of your other comments, the 612 seems to tick your boxes.

    On the cost of ownership, the 612 is a "modern" Ferrari and so maintenance costs seem to be relatively low. I have owned my 612 for 2 years and have had no issues.

    Another way to look at it is, a car under warranty is likely to hugely depreciate. On the 612 you don't have that issue (I think it is near bottom in terms of depreciation) and so you can put some of the money you are saving on depreciation towards maintenance. The key is to do your homework and buy well in terms of both condition and price.

    I can tell you the 612 is a great daily driver and the big V12 ticks the old school boxes (and thanks to Taz I plugged the vacuum lines on the exhaust and the V12 sounds even better!).
     
  45. I'm 360 Canuck

    I'm 360 Canuck Formula Junior

    Nov 21, 2015
    749
    2009-ish 911 turbo
    California
     

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