Is Lambo on the way out..?

Um this was the infamous palace revolt where engineers and other key employees had a dispute with Enzo's wife... And of course, Enzo's wife stayed and those guys were fired... Im not a big ferrari fan but even I know that part....

 

Whats wrong with copying the best? Ferrari at that time was the bench mark to beat... But ultimately the lamborghini v12 he commissioned Bizzarrini to design was a better design that the Fv12 back then... If the engine was commissioned by someone, how could it be Ferrari technology? check this out... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamborghini_V12

As to Ferruccio and Enzo... you cant compare the 2 people... Ferruccio was a business man turned auto maker. Enzo was a racer turned automaker. Its not exactly going to be rocket science that Enzo would have to stick it out simply because he had no other viable alternatives... Ferrucio on the other hand had other businesses. Besides, its not a secret that Enzo entertained the idea of selling the company to Ford at one point and time... He wasnt interested in making road cars. He always viewed road cars as merely a way to support his interest in racing. And when Ford offered to buy the company, he didnt insist on retaining control of the car building, he wanted to continue to control the racing side.. So essentially, Ferrari road cars were expendable and not important to Enzo. As to Enzo designing the F40, how useful could an 88 year old man be in contributing to creating the F40??? The guy was wearing sunglasses ALL the time and barely walk at that point.... At that point, we all know that he was just a figure head, nothing more... Again, I applaud the brilliance of Ferrari marketing its "passion, pedigree, and tradition".

As to the 2 car line up, I do agree wholeheartedly that 2 cars are too limiting to any manufacturer and there should be at 3-4 cars with a wider audience. Afterall, Lamborghini made an SUV and a sedan before, why should it not now?

 

magazines ?


I wonder on www.F-16.net, if they want to hear my opinion on the F-16 vs F-15, in simulated BVR combat ?

 

Yeah, really....

btw, Mr Ferrari copied the Packard V-12 -- that's where he got the idea for his V-12.

So all this is horse poop.

Lamborghini did not "copy" the Ferrari V-12. Bizzarrini designed the motor based on the best of current thinking. Ferrari did not own "physics" -- sheesh!!

Look, I just love the Ferrari V-12, and most of the Ferrari cars. But to downplay what Lamborghini did for any reason is just ... stupid. Ignorant. Misguided. Dumb. etc.

Both cars are great. Hey, I can't help it if Bizzarrini ran with the V-12 and improved it -- the original test motor was amazing!

http://www.400gt.com/articles/EarlyLambo/Biz_Honda.htm

He could have gotten 400hp out of that 3.5 liter motor -- but Ferruccio finally said "STOP!"

lol!

Fred

 

yeah, everybody knows this part. except... um... that guy above



Fred

 

don't give him too much credit, Roy.



Fred

 

I wouldn't know Ferruccio if I saw a mugshot, nor do I really car terribly much about who makes the best V-12. I love Ferrari because of the enigma that was Enzo Ferrari, and I have to disagree with some of your assertions.

Enzo was a fierce businessman who raced cars, not the other way around. If you don't believe me, you haven't studied him hard enough. Enzo started with nothing and made himself a very successful factory owner, who enjoyed great success during the War. Enzo's greatest achievement was not in his understanding of his race car mechanics, but in his appreciation of human nature and business. Enzo was almost Machiavellian in his ability to turn drivers and mechanics against each other and create an exhaustingly competitive environment that allowed him to achieve with very little, what large companies could not achieve with limitless resources. Enzo was also able to convince bankers, investors, politicians to do his bidding. In so doing, he carefully crafted his image until his company became almost a cult of personality. I don't want to waste pages going too indepth, but if you think Enzo was just a crafty race car driver, you really have no concept of the mechanics of Ferrari's success.

Enzo's threat of selling to Ford was in all likelihood one of his grand dramatic gestures designed more to remind the Italian people of what a national treasure he was (at a time when he was being targeted for the deaths of his drivers and spectators), than it ever was about Ford. He ultimately threw out the deal because he ostensibly didn't want to have to ask Ford for more money if he went over an allotted budget in his racing program. This is illuminating because he ultimately sold the company to FIAT, as you know. To the day he died, FIAT was surprised and a bit frustrated that he did not properly utilize the resources and funds of FIAT to support his racing program, at least according to an interview with Luca.

Furthermore, according to one well researched biography by Richard Williams as well as period articles, Enzo was actively involved in Ferrari until his death. Moreover, according to at least one period article I can recall off hand, Enzo was also actively involved in the F40 as he was becoming disenchanted with his road cars. Enzo's involvement at the time of his death, as throughout his life, was not of an engineer, but as a protagonist who brought out the best in everyone around him, whether they hated or loved him. As he was fond of saying, "I am an agitator of men."

Contrary to popular belief and outside of what is regurgitated in the car mags, Enzo did care about his road cars as well as the attention the elite purchasers from Kings to Hollywood elite gave him, if you don't believe me, you should probably read his own autobiography. I am more likely to believe that Enzo downplayed his road cars because of the constant tension between him and Chinetti. Enzo didn't like the fact that it was Chinetti, and not him, who really understood the value of his road cars, nor did he like the fact that many people both in and outside the industry spoke aloud that, if not for Chinetti, there would be no Ferrari.

As for the sunglasses, he started wearing them shortly after Dino's death and not for some eye condition brought on by old age--as I am sure you know. He also visited Dino's grave, as well of his wife and mother, every single day until the day he died.


Now resume your normal scheduled programming...


FWIW, I hope Lamborghini survives. Competition brings out the best in everyone and Lamborghini has done more for Ferrari road cars than most would care to admit.

 

>>I wouldn't know Ferruccio if I saw a mugshot<<

That's why you're an idiot who nobody is going to take seriously.

Fred

 

I must have really gotten under your skin to warrant such a sharp response. Does everybody HAVE TO LOVE Feruccio Lamborghini. Should his biography be required reading at the high school or college level?

As this is a Ferrari board, my only interest in addressing this thread was to challenge a perceived misconception regarding Enzo Ferrari, not to wade into your debate. As I said, I have nothing against Lamborghini itself, but you are not making a compelling case for the sophistication of its admirers.

 

Dear Lamborghinisti,

Umm....don't buy a Lamborghini. Buy a Calif.....everyones wife really likes that car!

Yawwwwn.....

Really? ....I drive a Ferrari because it looks really cool and I get to yell "Freeze...Miami Vice! " when I jump out. But....my "A game" is my Lamborghini....it always pushes any Ferrari out of the reserved spot in front of a night club....and dat's da way it izzz...booooyyy!


Shamile

Freeze....Miami Vice !

 

Ferruccio, you idiot.

You need to learn how to spell, and you need to know more about automotive history.

Fred

 

Fred,

Forgive me if I don't know nor care to learn more about F_________ Lamborghini. I really don't. Nor do I care to learn more about John Deere, another famous tractor manufacturer with whom I am sure you are well acquainted. I have my interests and you have yours. I could care less about anything Lamborghini. My interests are on Italian automobile manufacturers with a racing pedigree, ie Lancia, Maserati, FIAT and, of course, Ferrari. Yours appears to be Lamborghini and spelling.

What I do know is that your inability to express yourself in any other way but sophomoric insults only solidifies the stereotype of Lamborghini owners.

But hey, keep it up... You've got the class thing nailed down tight.

I can't wait for your next response...let me guess, its going to include the word idiot.

 

Also wanted to point out Lamborghini died basically broke. He lost EVERY SINGLE business venture he started due to his own mismanagement. They all failed & he ended up being a wine salesmen before he died. Not insulting anyone its just the truth.

I also really don't have anything "against" Lamborghini but its funny how the Lambo guys get mad, angry and upset when people don't worship them for owning a Lamborghini. You guys can get that self gratification and ass kissing from the average ignorant person on the street who knows nothing of cars or 16 year old little boys and girls.

And really & truthfully I don't even consider Lamborghini a direct competitor of Ferrari. A company that can't even produce their own cars 100%? The Gallardo's parts are made in Germany then shipped & assembled at Lambo's factory. Porsche & Mercedes are far more direct competitors to Ferrari in street machines & in Formula 1.

I to hope they survive but its not going to happen doing what they are doing now. I don't care how over the top & "kick ass" they make their cars.

 

1. Ahhhh, I am not sure I have seen a time where people weren't going crazy for a Lamborghini.

2. To state that "Lamborghini can't even produce their cars 100%" would be ignoring the fact that Ferraris at EVERY level have parts that were made by someone else in many other countries. Go do a search on "Cross referenced parts for Ferrari" and you will be quite amazed at what you find.

You said, "Porsche and Mercedes are more direct street competitors to Ferrari?" Hmmm. If you put a Porsche, Mercedes, Ferrari and Lamborghini on a street and let 20 people out onto the street, how many people would be standing in front of each car at any random time? Think about it. Then answer yourself who is Ferrari's biggest street competition?

3. They have ALWAYS done it this way. Almost every year of Lamborghini consisted of 2 models.

 

A friend was driving his G and me in my fcar around Tahoe and ppl were like using their oversized SUVs and pushing me out of the way to get a better look at the G. Honestly I couldn't get any less attention. Maybe if I put on a clown costume, had some strippers sprinkle a bunch of $100 bills on the ground and then lit the car on fire, maybe I could steal a pic. Otherwise, no.

 

Do you really care?

 

So you'd be an exception to your 16 year old's rule?

Bob S.

 

Wow, there are a whole bunch of strange and uncalled for asertions on this thread. I thought this was about whether a company like lamborghini could make it. suddenly it turns into insults and the usual lambo owners just buy the cars because they want to be noticed stuff. I do not think you need to own a car to know about it, using that logic I alot of people would not have much to say on this board. I may be the exception, but I am going to sell my Gallardo, and you know why because I hate the attention, and I really hope that all of you who think that is why people buy these cars, or any high end machine are wrong, because if you're right well then none of these companies have much of a future.

 

Indeed.

* * * * *

FredParoutaud, you cannot continue to cast aspersions upon the intelligence of those who disagree with you and expect that tactic to be an effective force of argument to bring others around to your way of thinking:

Particularly in the case of your exchanges with JoeZaff, he came across as far more eloquent and persuasive than you did when you merely responded to his civil debate with direct personal attacks:

For your consideration Fred, I suggest you need to put more effort into holding a civil debate and that your failure to do so up to this point has placed you in danger of not being taken seriously.

Regards,
Andrew.

 

History says otherwise. Ferruccio was very successful when he went in wine, air conditioners, & other markets.

But, I can tell by your previous posts you didn't know this because you're too busy brown nosing Ferrari.

And you don't think Ferrari is any different with Fiat? Ok.....

Gallardo sales & profit turn-arounds said otherwise when the Gallardo was introduced. Seems to me it's their dealers they need to keep an eye on.

 

Once more and you are out of here.

 

Here you go Andrew -- time for some reading material:

Comparing the original 350/400GT with the equivalent Ferraris


THE COMPLETE BOOK OF LAMBORGHINI
by Pete Lyons
published by Publications International, 1988

Wallace, who test drove and helped develop that original Lamborghini, remembers it fondly to this day: "Basically, Lamborghini himself wanted a very refined, high speed, front engined touring car. It reflected his own desires in a car, and I think it achieved what we all wanted. The car was extremely quick, and very very quiet, and, for its day, was a very very good handling car. Whereas Ferrari was still building a very, very well refined 1939 Chevy sort of thing. The difference was enormous. The difference in the weight of the cars, the way they handled, well, Ferrari was still playing around back then, still had his old live rear end and fairly crude old forged front suspension and the old, heavy 250 type chassis and so on.

"Oh, our car was not as well sorted out. There were the odd teething problems. Nothing major. Any car of this type, or any factory of this type, would have them. Even at Ferrari, the 275 series, the 330, you name it, had their teething problems. But the Lamborghini shall we say designwise, was a much, much more refined car. And the 350 would out perform any of the then current Ferraris by 20 kilometers an hour, just in performance alone."

 

I think I know what you mean but the gramatical and punctuation construct makes it a bit unclear?

When it comes to the attention thing, yes there certainly are people that buy exotic cars (all brands) at least partially for the attention factor but for some it becomes an annoyance.

Remember that old song " If you want to be happy for the rest of your life better make an ugly woman your wife, cause from my personal point of view get an ugly girl to marry you".

So if you get something pretty or flashy you gots to expect people to look.

Bob S.