Is this a record?

Discussion in '348/355' started by vdettore, Jul 14, 2017.

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  1. vdettore

    vdettore Karting
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    Vince
    My 348 has been in the shop now for 16 weeks for the 30,000 mile service. No it's not a Ferrari dealer and I thought I had fully interviewed the mechanic.
    Every week it's, "well I found this other part that needs to be replaced so we're shoving your car to the side while we work on this Land Rover, Porsche, whatever the F.
    Yes I'm stupid. Bought my first Ferrari in March of this year and was excited, took it for the 30k service to a shop in my area and 16 weeks later with the car still there I'm ready to explode( I'm venting and BTW I deserve being lit up by smart A** remarks- anything to help me vent).

    Ok, anyone else have gone longer than 16 weeks( without any major repairs that is) or am I the new bench mark?


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  2. dahveedem

    dahveedem Formula 3
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    Wow... mine was only in for about 4 weeks but that also included finding a few issues we had to order parts for.... have you gone to the shop to actually look at the car?

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  3. 308 GTB

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    Vince,

    I have my F355 Challenge and 550 serviced at a Factory-authorized service shop. You'd be surprised at how many calls they get from shops with minimal experience attempting to do Ferrari major services asking for assistance.

    Barry
     
  4. 19633500GT

    19633500GT Formula 3
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    Where did you go?

    Pull it from the shop NOW

    Take it to HESCO in Birmingham or FoA?
     
  5. 2HotShoes

    2HotShoes Karting

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    There's a line toward the end of the movie Raiders of the Lost Ark where Harrison Ford's in some cave and makes some correct decision where an old sage says, slowly, deliberately: "You chose well."

    Guess what. You didn't. That said, a good Ferrari, especially your first one, will teach you things...
     
  6. dahveedem

    dahveedem Formula 3
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    I'm curious as to your " interview process".

    Also to my first question...have you been to see the car?

    I hope your story doesn't turn into a similar story as Megan who took her black 348 to a "reputable mechanic" who ended up royally effing up her car. Her posts are on here about it.

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  8. yelcab

    yelcab F1 Veteran
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    75% of the time required to fix a Ferrari is in waiting for the parts, especially the obscure one. Still, 16 weeks for a major is a very long time. Truck it someplace else? Find a good DIY site, wait you are on one.
     
  9. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
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    Hmmm....call me crazy - when I need parts I typically can source and have them in hand in 24-48 hours.

    We are not talking about restoring a Ferrari from the 50's here....

    Sound like the shop is working on what they feel are other priorities. Pay them a visit, have a detailed discussion about what they feel the delay is caused by. If it's unreasonable or it smells bad, pull the car and get it to someone else.
     
  10. dahveedem

    dahveedem Formula 3
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    + 348!



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  11. vdettore

    vdettore Karting
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    Thanks for the replies.
    I've been there every week. The engine is out and everything is taken apart. Awaiting a timing belt tensioner now or something. I was too pissed to pay attention when I went by there today. Yeah my mistake and I'm paying for it. I feel it's too late to pull the car since the engine is all apart. I'll just have to be patient. My interview process consisted of me printing off a checklist of sorts from the 348 DIY. The mechanic answered most of my questions before I asked as well as seemed knowledgeable overall with Ferraris. I'm on St Simons Island, Ga. He also seems to be meticulous and has been very good at showing me questionable parts that need to be replaced ( thus the wait for them to order and the part to come in). I'm just tired of going by and not seeing progress. Though the mechanic had pointed out several problems ( timing belt tensioner pads on backwards, nut laying in bottom of pan because the tensioner was failing, etc., I just think 16 weeks in WAYYYY past due. I've been the nice understanding guy through the process, but today I snapped when they said another part had to be ordered( as many times I was promised they would get back on the car on Monday only to find out it was Wednesday or Thursday when they got to it, found the bad part and everything stops again).
    Thanks for hearing me out, I know ultimately the fault is mine and I hope the final outcome is my car comes back to me well sorted.


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  12. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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    Barry,

    You would be surprised at the number of pros who have asked me for information and I'm not a pro.

    Hope your season on track has been good. I had my last race at Watkins Glen a few weeks ago. Weather was perfect and flyfishing local rivers great too. What a fantastic track. What a fun and beautiful area. I was surprised by a hot 16" brown trout that broke off my light line. You guys that run WGI regularly with all those walls to hit are real men. It took me the whole weekend to start getting the track. I had super fun but dismal 2:15 flat laptimes with traffic. I'm sure if I had another weekend I could lop off another 5 seconds maybe more. Dang walls and all the banking play tricks with my brain. My next race is Runoffs at Indianapolis.
     
  13. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
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    Vince - call the shop and setup a meeting in the next couple days. Go there calm. Have an open discussion stating that you understand the challenges but are frustrated with the timeline. Ask them "what do you need to properly complete this project without compromise ". Ask, "I need a reasonble estimate on when the work will be complete ". Be clear that you will hold them to it.

    Stuff happens and that is to be understood but 16 weeks is a bit much without knowing the entire (both sides) story

    Now, if they told you from the start that they had a xxx week backlog and could not start until a certain time, that's a totally different situation. Everyone has limited capacity.

    We often have customers that expect we can refinish their parts in a couple weeks when we often have a 4 week backlog.
     
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  15. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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    These cars are very easy to work on. So easy in fact that the Stooges exist because of it. I know you are in GA but if you flew out a Stooge or shipped your car in a box of parts to Cali we could have your car ready to drive home in a weekend! That is how easy these cars are to service. I say give the guy an ultimatum drop dead time to completion or you will show up with a tow truck and remove the car from his shop. He will get nothing for failure to complete and you may buy the parts he has already ordered at your discretion if the removal process is uneventful. Then give him 1 more day because guys like that will promise they can do the job by friday and be ready until saturday. If he fails just tow it out to another shop and move on. Sometimes you are the bug and sometimes the windshield.

    My friend bought our very own copter John's 348 (former bushmobile) that was near perfect. For his paranoia I pull the motor on a friday, did the service, and had him enjoying his car on Sunday! Who-Hoo it is summertime and time to get these cars on the road!
     
  16. vdettore

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    I was told it would take 4 weeks, but could be as little as 3. I think a large part has to do with my car getting bumped back in the order. When they told me 4 weeks in my mind I thought ok, I'll be OK with as long as 12 since I live nearby and can visit weekly.




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  17. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
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    Vince - that was yesterday, not today. You need to reset the clock and go about it how I stated or similar. It's project management. You need to state your frustrations, ask what the obstacles are and get them to commit to a timeline that is reasonable. It sucks to have to manage someone you hired but sadly it happens a lot.
     
  18. vdettore

    vdettore Karting
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    I agree 100% and thank you for the advice.

    I'll post again when I've had a chance to meet with the shop.


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  19. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
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    It shouldn't take anymore than one week for one person to do an engine out service on a 348. One day to get the motor out. One day to remove the belt covers, belts, cam covers.
    At this point you should know all of the extra parts that are needed in addition to the regular service parts which should have been procured ahead of time. They can be ordered on the second day and will arrive in time to complete the service. Another day to clean everything, install the cam seals, belt pulleys, water pump if needed, time the cams and adjust that valves. One day to install all of the cam covers, belt covers, spark plugs/ ignition wires, replace the fuel filters and start reinstallation of the motor. One last day to finish installation of motor, fill all fluids, run motor and check throttle body synch.

    Unless there are other things that need attention outside of the normal service: Clutch, etc, it is basically 5 working days to complete the job. What things are they replacing that are taking so long? How much labor are they charging you for the job? I hope it's not by the hour.

    If it takes me any longer than 5 days, I am losing money on the job.
     
  20. Wade

    Wade F1 World Champ
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    Sounds like they're doing the work "in between" other jobs. It also sounds like they have to move vehicles around due to lack of space, i.e. shifting priorities.
     
  21. Dave rocks

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    Brian - I greatly appreciate your detailed and comprehensive posts from Pro experience. Thank you.
     
  22. 308 GTB

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    FBB,

    I was at Lime Rock Park a couple of weeks ago. Two fun days and rain held off until after the track went cold. We go back to Watkins Glen in five weeks for three days. A lot of track time to hone our skills. Yes, there are walls and Armco all over the place. Tracking out on Turn 11 onto the front straight is always a bit of a concern with that wall so close to the curbing. But it's fun and it's important to remember that it's an HPDE event; we're not going home with any trophies.

    Both WGI and LRP are in beautiful scenic areas with lots of great fishing. I'm happy to hear you enjoyed your visit to my neck of the woods. Now let's try to find a time where we can meet up at one of those two fine, and historic, tracks.

    Barry

    Sorry for the brief deviation, Vince.
     
  23. vdettore

    vdettore Karting
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    I think they are working mine in between other cars ( Mercedes, Land Rover, Jag, BMW mostly). I hear that a 30k service normally runs $5-$7k. I've had a few extra things replaced which I can't remember right now so I'm expecting closer to$10k.


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  24. Nader

    Nader Formula Junior
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    If the engine has been out and apart for several weeks, I'd be very surprised if they haven't lost or forgotten a number of bits and pieces by now. I can't imagine a good outcome from pausing a major project midway through with lots of loose stuff laying about.
     
  25. vdettore

    vdettore Karting
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    Fortunately everything is bagged and labeled


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  26. Drock28

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    being your first car and just bought it.. I cant imaging how frustrated you are.
    just as a reader it is frustrating..

    it seems you did your best to feel out the mechanic.. but he is clearly not experienced with doing engine outs.. and is not treating it as a priority job..

    ive been in similar situation with another car.. and I know how you feel to let this guy get the job done.. so hopefully it works out... it is almost at a point of no return.. if the engine is out and in pieces.. the trouble to move it out would be a headache.

    luckily I planned to have my engine out performed over the winter... so there was no anxiety of waiting.
    dropped the car to my shop in Nov 2015 and picked it up March 31 2016.
    the car just sat most of the time in storage..

    but to give you an idea.. when he did get to work on it..
    the engine was out and back in, in under 2 working weeks, basically less then 10days.
    and this included installing new headers, triple seals, inner cv boots, mounts, opening/resealing the oil pan and all the rest of the usual bits..

    my engine was on the table, split in 3; engine, transmission and clutch..
    and within couple days it was back in the car..
     
  27. driveitdaily

    driveitdaily Formula 3

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    But , I saw a tv show , they did the whole f355 job in one episode , lololol !!!
     
  28. driveitdaily

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    #26 driveitdaily, Jul 15, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
    Problem is , and I say this as a shop owner, if he pulls that car from the shop , is finding a shop that will accept what someone else has taken apart, we wouldn't , we did it once on an audi s8 , and the whole experience was a nightmare , it can be done but its going to be hard to find someone happy about undertaking the job.

    I have to agree with Dave on the parts , its all out there to be had pretty quickly , very few things about that job are obscure.

    oh and , the biggest mistake you can make , no matter how pissed you are , is , don't go in there with any attitude , gather your cool and be calm. I recall an especially unreasonable customer , with car tore apart here ( not for 16 weeks tho ) they changed their attitude when I said " here's the phone , call a tow truck and get it out of here" .Wow , how quickly hey changed their attitude , lol. I don't recall the situation , but I'm pretty laid back , it would take a lot to get me there , but they did .So try to be composed , you don't want that to happen .

    Next time you go , do it around lunchtime , take the guys there a tray or two of pizza, you might be surprised at how far a simple gesture will you .
     
  29. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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    The new shop2 would have to have a brain. Shop2 would have to know by sight if anything was missing and tell the owner no guarantees and all the potential pitfalls just like your doctor gives you "informed consent" for surgery, i.e all the ways you can die get infection etc. etc. For all the new shop2 knows the reason for the delay is unwillingness of shop 1 to tell owner they already broke the car doing a bad belt install and hitting valves. Now that is an extreme possibility but shop 2 has no clue. So there is the liability to shop 2 and I totally get why shop 2 would say they would not touch it. But knowledge is power and if shop2 has the knowledge no problem and probably charge a bit more for the extra risk but there is no shop time for the subframe removal so owner gets some hours of labor back. I would love to buy someone's Ferrari as a box of parts for an extreme discount because I have confidence in my knowledge. Others would be too fearful to make the purchase. For example, lets say the clutch is separated from the motor unit. People talk about that adding time to the job. Well it would take me about an hour to fit a new one perhaps a lot less time than that. It takes me 2 hours for a clutch if the car is just rolled onto my lift and I'm not a pro. I don't see how to justify 16 weeks and counting. Track record so far leads me to believe there is probably greater chance of this going to 32 weeks than ending next week.
     
  30. Drock28

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    how so different industries can be..? im in financial services.. and I bend over backwards for my client.. regardless the situation.. even if the client is being unreasonable..

    what happened to "customer is always right"....?

    but in the mechanics industry.. the mechanic always has upper hand..
    as soon as the client puts pressure, shows frustration or offers some attitude..

    most mechanics would respond as you did above.. " take your car and get out".

    and here, youre suggesting to the OP, after 16weeks to go bring them Pizza lol..
     
  31. driveitdaily

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    #29 driveitdaily, Jul 15, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
    His car is tore apart, he's at their mercy now , getting pissy is only going to make it worse.

    The customer is always right at McDonalds , if you don't like it you can go home and cook your own dinner , If you can't fix your own car , then ,as hard it may be to admit , you are dependent on the mechanic. It may not be good business on part of the shop the OP chose , but its too late now , most shops will not accept the car bought to them in pieces . Just the task of moving the car with the rear subframe out would be a nightmare. At this point he's got to grin and bear it and not the situation any worse or the car sit and sit and sit, they can demand he remove the car and not release the car until a hefty bill is paid. I'd buy pizza and donuts and steak dinners , whatever it takes, get the job finished and never go back there
     
  32. driveitdaily

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    Well said , its not a complicated car , its the liability factor to shop 2. Hate to say it but there's an arrogance factor with the mechanics pertaining to cleaning up someone else's mess
    .
     
  33. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
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    It's quite obvious the car has been sitting more than being worked on. The shop (for whatever reason) is working on other orders and putting this car on the back burner.

    I agree it's best to stay calm - nothing good will come from a hot headed discussion (regardless of who is right or wrong)

    But take them a pizza? **** that!!! That's one of the problems of this world - rewarding or kissing the ass of the guy that is screwing you. BS. I'll take the pizza to the guy that treats me right from the start.
     
  34. driveitdaily

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    They have him by the balls now , unfortunately , I would just want my car back , I couldn't hurt.

    They obviously don't care , they can say get the car out of here , say he owes them $10,000 to release the car and he's powerless ,other than to sue them , more time , and the car will sit there till the courts decide , I'd kiss their ass then leave a bad review everywhere I could , ultimately I'd just want my car back. 2 weeks would be too long.
     
  35. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
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    The absolute best thing to do is work this out with the current shop as I have already posted. But sometimes, that just can't be done. It's a matter of both parties putting in some effort.

    But I can tell you from experience, I've pulled stuff from shops more than once. No friggin way will I be held hostage. If the relationship is badly damaged, the work will likely suffer and then it would be best for both parties to move on.
     
  36. driveitdaily

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    #34 driveitdaily, Jul 15, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
    You're absolutely right , at that point I don't now if I would even want them working on my car . And in most circumstances , it would be easy to pull the car from the shop . but a 348 with the whole back half off , what a nightmare to move , its a tough situation.
     
  37. SoCal1

    SoCal1 F1 Veteran
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    Shop dude just got some fog on the brain with a side order of wet feet

    Go assure him it's OK lets start over and get it going in the right direction.

    After all poop happens sometimes and he may need a new binky


    :)
     
  38. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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    Agree with DR on this one. Next thread will be OP questioning the work on Fchat.

    DR will send his rear frame wheels and you can roll the chassis on the flatbed. Cherry pick subassembly on flatbed takes 10 mins with rope on heads or roll onto flatbed with harbor freight furniture dolly $15 bucks! Guy says he got no cherry picker then rent from local autoparts store. Anything else in boxes can fit inside the front bonnet. Done! Sucks and nerve racking for the OP but very doable. Pay him the hours for the subassembly removal and move on. Don't get cheated pay no more than Ricambi or FNA "retail" for parts in your hand. Anything he does not have in his hand he eats. Everything has a part number and there is no mystery pricing.
     
  39. Kaivball

    Kaivball Three Time F1 World Champ
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    I don't have any fresh suggestions but I can commiserate because I made the same mistake 11 years ago when I bought my 348.

    I didn't know if Fchat and the valuable information here. I took it to an exotic car repair shop and they had the car for 2.5 months. But to make matters worth, the car didn't run right afterwards. They replaced cat ecu, coils, etc etc. bill was over $20k and car still didn't run right.

    I then took it to Brian Crall, the resident expert Ferrari mechanic. He had to perform another engine out service and correct the mistakes (the worst was the incorrectly installed belt tensioner that was actually digging into the belt and would ultimately have let to breakage and complete engine failure).

    Attempted to get my money back or portions refunded but no dice. That place is now out of business.

    Expensive lesson. But now I know.


    Kai
     
  40. radlu

    radlu Karting

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    Just go buy another one.
     
  41. WATSON

    WATSON F1 Rookie
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    Mine car went to a pretty well known, indy Ferrari shop for the engine out service in 2015.

    My 355 went in January 6th, Came out June 25th. Well, late May actually, but they forgot the fuel block seals and made quite mess of things on my 15 mile run, but I didn't blow up! :) So it went back. Then the transmission...

    It ran right after I spent the month of July fixing the residual issues.

    We still talk. They learned some things at my expense, but that happens. I stop by at times and keep the peace. Probably do my own engine service next time though.

    You are not alone. Keep calm, and carry on ;)
     
  42. vdettore

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    Awesome idea on the lunch. Yes I agree - I'll stay composed and have been this far. I think disappointment would describe my attitude on my last visit to the shop.


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  43. vdettore

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    The mechanic working on mine found that the belt tensioner was put on backward and eating into the belt. The belt was eaten up pretty bad.
    The mechanic has done a good job of showing me everything he does( I make weekly visits) but he stops any further work when he runs into a part that needs replaced outside of the normal 30k parts. Then it sits for 10 days until the guy who orders parts gets around to placing the order.

    We'll see what happens. I'll just grin and bear it. I haven't been rude in anyway to the mechanic. Maybe disappointed but that's it. Though I did send an email to the owner after the last visit voicing my concerns.




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  44. Kaivball

    Kaivball Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Sounds like my old bad mechanic worked on your car as well installing the belt tensioner backwards...

    :)

    Kai
     
  45. BucksTifoso

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    I had a similar experience when I bought my 355. I drove it from Florida to a Pennsylvania. The major had been done two years prior. The dealership I bought it from recommended taking it to an independent garage, as "that's where all the best mechanics end up". I did that and three months later got the car back with a $14,000 bill!! The shop was very good at communicating what they were finding, with the request for approval to go ahead and make the repairs each time. This sounds very appropriate, but after awhile, I felt like they were just feeling out my credit limits. The car would be ready for delivery, then after a test drive, this sensor or that module would be found to be bad. After they had the car for two months, they found a bad spark plug! I was a little incensed that they were finding something as basic as a bad spark plug so late in the game. Their answer was that modern cars don't need routine replacement of plugs. $1000 later for plugs and wires and another month wait for them to arrive! Even though there was a lot of icy/snow conditions that winter, I finally got the car out of there as soon as I could. They often do have you by the balls! My take was that I would never go back there again and have told others of my experience there. Since then, I have had the car serviced at a Ferrari dealership and at another independent garage. I had my major done about a month ago. It took all of one week!
     
  46. vdettore

    vdettore Karting
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    Thanks to everyone for your thoughts and your own personal experiences. This has allowed me to rethink my expectations of the service and the shop at this point. So I'll continue to make my weekly visits, stay on good terms with the mechanic. If anything for my own sanity.
    I bought the Ferrari because I've always wanted since I was a kid, so I'll learn from this and look forward to finally getting it back - hopefully sooner than later.

    Thank God I have a boat I can go cruise around in. Lol.


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  47. INRange

    INRange Formula Junior
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    That's the right attitude to have.

    Also what I have learned is that owning a Ferrari makes boating an "inexpensive" hobby. While Boaters invented what BOAT stood for (Break Out Another Thousand)...Ferrari owners have no such limit.
     
  48. Nader

    Nader Formula Junior
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    Feb 12, 2011
    536
    East of Seattle
    I have never, ever, heard any boat owner utter this. :)

    I have a few relatively expensive hobbies, but I thank my lucky stars that I've kept myself away from boats and planes, and my wife away from horses (so far).
     
  49. emac

    emac Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 14, 2014
    497
    upstate SC
    Full Name:
    ernest
    I remember helping my great uncle Leo (big boater guy) get his boat ready for winter storage. After about ten trips with a wheelbarrow, in his old New York Italian voice, he yells:

    "This is boating.....carrying crap back and forth to the car!" I sure miss those relatives.
     
  50. dahveedem

    dahveedem Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 12, 2012
    1,379
    Maryland
    Full Name:
    David
    Lol.. break out bust out another thousand.

    Patience is your ally my friend

    Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
     
  51. Boaf 32

    Boaf 32 Karting

    Aug 23, 2016
    155
    US
    Dave knows that I have gone through alot of this type of "shenanigans" with my 1999 355 F1. I found a reputable service center in Floriday and very happy with them. I would pull it out once you find that reputable dealer or authorized Ferrari service center. You'll feel much better about the car and yourself.

    Boaf
     
  52. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 13, 2009
    10,502
    Charleston, SC
    Full Name:
    Curt
    #50 vrsurgeon, Jul 17, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
    Sorry I noticed this thread as I still keep the ears tuned for a 348.

    The relationship I have with my mechanic.. he understands that I "get it". He has a good idea what I'm looking for with a repair and to what extent a repair should be pushed.
    "It's OK Karl. I'll take care of that when I get it home. Don't worry I'll take care of it."

    His team can do the big stuff and I can take care of the more easy to access parts. I get that the engine is out and you have the best access to everything and you want it good as new when you get it back, but what parts are they finding. It's to to have a "While You're At It" philosophy, but what I found with my 928 is you can end up replacing things that could probably be deferred and spread out the $$$ and give you time with the car.

    Maybe ask them to button up the big stuff and take care of the smaller issues later? I can't imagine anything more than belts, tensioners, valve cover gasket and seals.. then reinstall and repair in time with the subframe on car.
     

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