On it's own it's not a BFD, but as an example of pandering to a small but vocal minority, it represents the machinery of the state acting against the long term national interest, because of their leftist mindset. Muslims are 2% of the population, Shia are roughly 10% of muslims, so that's 0.2% for whom we're inculcating special exceptions that elevate the people involved above the other 99.8%. So begins the journey of the professional victim...
The article said 30-40 kids left, so obviously that specific school is not representative of the regular population (or it has 15000 kids, which might be a bigger problem). Regardless, my point is nobody has ever been forced to sing the anthem in my experience (which is not necessarily the same as others, but I'm sure it has never regulated by any higher authority than the school itself). Now they still aren't. How is this acting "against the long term national interest"?
It's the same as what is happening over and over again in our courtrooms where muslims are refusing to stand when the judge enters the room. It's about recognising the customs of the society you choose to live in
I've never heard about the courtroom thing so I can't really comment on that beyond saying that if there are rules (not customs) saying that one must stand, and those rules are in place for a good reason, then anyone refusing (and I'm sure there are plenty of people who aren't keen, Muslim or otherwise) ought to be dealt with in the same way. If it's simply a custom that someone refuses to respect, I imagine that their treatment of the court may be reflected by the court's treatment of them. Singing the national anthem is not customarily compulsory in Australia. The article explained the reasoning behind them not wanting to do it, it wasn't anything to do with anti-Australian sentiment, total non-story.
"Total non-story" is my opinion, yes. The other part was fairly clearly implied in the article, which I'm assuming is accurate.
I assume most of what I read is inaccurate at best .... I once told the Hobart Mercury that people in the Ferrari club had other cars for their day to day commuting which got "reported as" people in the Ferrari club have several Ferraris Bottomline here is that if you choose to come here for a better life then accepting the standards and values of this country would be a minimum criteria
That's a fair point, but in this case nobody has suggested there's anything inaccurate about the article, so for the sake of discussion we have to take it as written. If there's more info about the specific situation, then let's hear it! I'd say that a diverse population is a great strength. Nonetheless, you're right to some degree, I think, and I'll bet there are a lot of members of the Muslim community doing their very best to reconcile their religion and their nation. One thing that probably doesn't help them is endless shrieking from subsections of the community about slippery slopes to Sharia law and treating the "accept our way of life" notion as some kind of tightly defined rulebook. "Standards and values" is potentially a VERY wide net to cast, and I suspect it's possible to come up with a list of Australian standards and values that nobody in the country fully follows or accepts. One may also consider that these things change and evolve over time - many groups have been treated poorly (or appallingly!) in the past and as a community we wouldn't dream of holding similar views nowadays. Forcing conformity might be aesthetically pleasing, but that's about it. What this story appears to come down to is a gran getting upset about some kids following a custom that she doesn't agree with, and that isn't exactly news!
Most of the "accept our way of life" argument is from sections of islam. If you have to do your best to reconcile your religion with your nation, then there's something wrong with your religion. I'm tired of people using our tolerance to get away with preaching intolerance.
There's a difference between "Accept that this is our way of life" and "Accept our way of life as your own". The former is fine, the latter not so much. There's something wrong with every religion, and it's the same thing with each of them. Nevertheless, that's none of my concern, nor anyone else's than their adherents. Blind faith in your nation doesn't seem that much different than blind faith in the god(s) of your choice, in many ways. This story seems to be mostly about the second part.
We don't sing the Italian anthem at my house, never have, but I do appreciate Italian culture , arts, food, cars (obviously), women, etc I do wish we could hear the Italian anthem a bit more often in F1 I grew up with God save the queen as the Aussie anthem and I never noticed the Irish kids walking out when it was sung, we all sang it as a binding exercise for diverse cultures settling in Australia. I was called wog and many other salubrious names growing up, didn't turn me against Australia or make me want to grab a gun and shoot a cop , instead I joined the armed services in defence of this country and would have willingly gone to war to protect it. If the Muslims want to integrate and enjoy the Aussie lifestyle they have to stop this stupidity which gets highlighted by every bigot and right wing fascist, otherwise there is no trust and we'll end up with more confrontation and return to the Crusades, only this time around we have the ability to wipe out lots more people from both sides ..... good god/allah/buddha/ let's hope it doesn't get that far
The separation between church and state in Australia needs to be re-advertised and made clear to ALL. ONE law for all, no exceptions except perhaps the right to choose 'traditional punishment' when convicted under Aus law; free to believe whatever claptrap you choose. Many, many groups (orthodox Christian and Jew, Hindus, Muslims in general until recently) have managed this in the past. And keep all the proselytisers, of whatever description, out of the schools.
Read this. Singing the national anthem has nothing to do with religious beliefs No Cookies | dailytelegraph.com.au "IT is not the fault of the Muslim children who walked out of a school assembly when the Australian national anthem was played. It is entirely the fault of the misguided principal who offered the primary students the opportunity to walk out and who encouraged them to reject this quintessential expression of Australian identity, in the name of diversity. This is not a storm in a teacup as one Muslim leader put it. Nor is it a test of this countrys understanding of difference or tolerance. Singing Advance Australia Fair and raising the Australian flag are purely secular expressions of allegiance to this country. They do not conflict with religious expression. To spurn this deeply symbolic public display of patriotism is a statement of disrespect and disloyalty, which implies a rejection of Australian values. You would expect an Australian public school principal to understand this. But, the principal of Cranbourne Carlisle Primary School, Cheryl Irving, claimed that her offer to the Years 2-6 students last week to boycott the national anthem was made out of respect for a Shiite Muslim religious observance. Between October 13 and November 12, some Muslims observe the month of Muharram, to mourn the death of a grandson of Muhammad. The aim is to avoid joyful events. Fair enough. But the national anthem doesnt have to be a joyful event, unless its sung after the Wallabies beat the All Blacks at Twickenham. The principal of Cranbourne Carlisle Primary School claimed her offer to the students to boycott the national anthem was made out of respect for religious observance. (Pic: Supplied) And if 30 or 40 Muslim students did not want to sing, they could have stood to attention respectfully as the anthem was being played. In any case, senior Shiites such as Musa Naqvi, president of the oldest Shia Muslim group in Victoria, the Panjtan Society, have said there was no religious necessity to avoid the anthem. Where does it stop, this endless demand for special treatment by groups who hold themselves exempt from Australian culture and tradition. This is the poison of Leftist multiculturalism taken to an extreme where it threatens to divide the country. The excuse from the Victorian Department of Education is the school supports diversity because many students were born overseas and more than half dont speak English at home. Well, thats the story of Australia. We have become one of the worlds most harmonious immigrant nations because we have absorbed people of different races, cultures and creeds who have come here to become Aussies. We have benefited from the hybrid vigour that immigration brings and the Australian identity has adapted and been enriched. We are a secular nation. But the values that made Australia a free, prosperous, fair democracy, that migrants strive to join, come from the Judaeo-Christian foundations which underpin Western civilisation. This is the origin of our democracy, rule of law, equality of every human being, and freedom of speech, conscience and religion. The alternative value system you will find in Saudi Arabia, where women are stoned to death for adultery. It is precisely because Cranbourne is so linguistically and culturally diverse that the national anthem and the flag are so important. If public schools dont assert Australian values, it is certain that someone elses values will prevail. But you just have to look at the new national school curriculum, instituted ironically enough, under a supposedly conservative Abbott government, to see how the Lefts long march through the institutions continues unabated. In the Years 7-10 curriculum, Christianity makes just two appearances, (compared to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander appearing 14 times). Even then its not in any meaningful way. In year 8 the curriculum for Civics and Citizenship, for instance, will teach just: The values and beliefs of religions practised in contemporary Australia, including the Christian traditions of Australian society. In the History syllabus in years 7-10 you get one mention: the transformation of the Roman world and the spread of Christianity and Islam, along with a reference to the Crusades and the dominance of the Catholic Church in Medieval Europe, which is sure to be flattering to Christianity not. There seems to be a worrying cultural and spiritual vacuum in our public schools, in which cultural relativism rules. As Kim Beazley, our ambassador to the United States, points out, Australia has a much worse problem of young jihadis running off to join terrorist armies than America does. He suggests that Australias brand of multiculturalism fosters the development of multiple identities which counter a strong national identity. And he has described the values in our education system as good but amorphous. Conversely, in America, you are an American first you dont have other ideas, he said in a recent interview. In almost every US state, children stand with a hand over their heart every morning and cite the pledge of allegiance as the flag is raised, I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Rather than bending over backwards to make exemptions for those who want to opt out of unifying national rituals, we should do the opposite and emulate this daily pledge of allegiance to Australia in every school. Otherwise, into a vacuum, something sinister will likely rush."
No, 'fraid not. She does make one good point, that I agreed with totally - the kids should've just stood quietly and not sung, because the act of walking out and back in just gives people with a tendency to arc up about irrelevant things an excuse to do exactly that. The principal should've made it known (long before the assembly, ideally) that singing was not compulsory, and nobody would've had any reason to get upset. But that solution is just about pre-emptively placating the soon-to-be-angry mob, it doesn't solve the perceived problem - which matters not at all to me, because there actually isn't a problem in my view, but surely must matter tremendously to MD because she seems awfully upset about it (and indeed most things she seems to write about). Other than the solution-that-solves-nothing, she does a terrible job of making her point. She doesn't appear to know the first line of the anthem she's so keen on, her headline asks a question that she might ask of herself (Is it? Or is it to their religion? Or their family? Or all three? Or none? Why does she get to decide?), she whines about poor under-represented 2/3rds-of-Australians Christianity, and ends with a recommendation to emulate the ultra-creepy enforced daily Pledge of Allegiance recital that happens in US schools. No thanks. Incidentally, I did read the whole thing initially. How could I not? Once I'd read the part I quoted, I was fascinated to see where she went. I thought that single statement neatly encapsulated her failure to actually think about what she was writing, rather than banging away angrily at the keyboard, assured that there'd be plenty of commenters equally incandesced by someone living their own life to support her. I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind - that's fine. But I honestly question why an event like this that, until it was written about, had absolutely, utterly, 100% no impact whatsoever on anyone's life seems so important. Is it all just more fuel for the slippery-slope fire?
^^^^^^^^^^^^ Which planet do you live on? We have had 2 terrorist attacks in the name of Islam in Sydney in the last 18mths. We have had several Australian nationals head to Syria and join Islamic State as well as countless others that have been prevented from doing so What is the problem with pledging allegiance to the country you live in and supports you with generous social welfare and healthcare. Creepy to do so eh?
So the national anthem thing leads there? Is that what you're saying? Just making sure I understand. And yes... the pledge of allegiance is SUPER creepy when it's enforced in a large group, particularly when it's a group of children. Saying it (or the geographic OR religious equivalent of your choice) voluntarily? No problem at all.
Yes, it all starts with education of the young. If you don't have any respect for the anthem or flag but place your religion first then it just adds to the victim mentality some Muslims in this country have. You don't get it because you don't have these issues in WA yet
you wont have any respect for the culture, values or laws of the country, that graciously accepted you, to make your own.. oh.. that is already happening.
Could it not be the inverse problem? All the desperate calls for integration and adopting "our" values etc might easily have the effect of strengthening the values they do have. Like most kids, if you want them to do something, be prepared for them to do the precise opposite. Heck, it even has that effect on me - every time I hear something relatively innocuous decried as "unaustralian" I feel a bit less Australian myself. I also have to wonder if, in the modern era where kids (and non-kids) have easy access to basically all the information about the world at their fingertips, it's really possible to instil that same patriotism in an (initially) unwilling participant. 20+ years ago, the school and parents were the only people offering (or allowing delivery of) authoritative views to a child. That's very much not the case any more, and it's caused a major change in the effectiveness of this sort of thing, I reckon. Oh yeah, I forgot before - the second-last line in each verse of the anthem also says "In joyful strains then let us sing". It really is surprisingly specific about its joyfulness
I think you are being too simplistic and write without any real knowledge and direct experience. Modern Western values challenge the medieval mindset of Islam which is uncompromising. This sets up a conflict for the muslim youth here in Oz. Accept and assimilate with Australian culture or maintain a muslim identity as expected by your parents. Easier to live in your own subculture by choosing the latter and easier to deal with the former by developing hatred for it Migrants from various cultures have intergrated over the last 100 years and contributed to the rich culture we have without resorting to terrorist attacks.
