MCLAREN 720S OR 488

Discussion in '458 Italia/488' started by doccharlie954, Jun 7, 2017.

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  1. Coincid

    Coincid Formula Junior

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    So a guy who only drives on city streets in congested traffic and believes all cars super or otherwise, feel the same in that driving environment, owns a 4C which might be the least comfortable DD around. And he considers the 4C a Ferrari?
     
  2. dustman

    dustman Formula 3
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    Got both cars, cant say I concur with your POV at all.

    But to each their own.
     
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  3. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Formula 3
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    ain't that the truth.amen.
     
  4. exoticcardreamer

    exoticcardreamer Formula Junior

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    I'm not sure if we are going to see many magazine tests of 720s. They don't seem to be having any trouble selling them so not much incentive to do a test or publicize what might have already been done.

    I do know that motor trend was trying a bunch of cars at laguna seca a couple of months ago and 488 was one of them. (Ferrari had their techs for on site support). I believe that episode is going to be released in October some time .


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  5. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey Formula Junior

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    Same here, despite believing the Speciale is a modern classic, the 488 is a marvel.
     
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  6. anunakki

    anunakki Four Time F1 World Champ
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    for most of us you are 100% correct. we care about emotion and feel, not masturbating over a couple tenths of a second

    but there are still those out there who love their data. They dont care if its fun to drive as long as they can point to a video on youtube and proudly exclaim ' my car is faster'
     
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  8. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Formula 3
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    yup
     
  9. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Formula 3
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    in what ways is it a marvel? because all i see is a bad 458 in it. the 360 in so many obvious ways, moved the game on from the 355, the 430 with eDiff and a substantially more rigid chassis moved the game on from 360, and then the 458 again improved dramatically over 430...but when i got my 488 it was, like, geez, we went backwards in everything except straight line power... whats the marvel on the 488?
     
  10. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Rookie

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    Not as sharp as the Speciale, but compared to the Italia it is even more well behaved, with superior electronics, steering and brakes. It is an Italia successor after all; the GTO (or whatever it might be called) will be Speciale's.
     
  11. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az Formula Junior
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    Totally agree.
     
  12. 09Scuderia

    09Scuderia Formula 3

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    Yep, you are absolutely right. The original NSX shake things up...great point


     
  13. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az Formula Junior
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    Damn!! I was hoping with the switch over to the new website that this thread would somehow be lost. No such luck!!
     
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  15. kingjr9000

    kingjr9000 Formula Junior

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  16. rocketman

    rocketman Formula Junior

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    +1
     
  17. Robert P

    Robert P Karting
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    + 2
     
  18. Coincid

    Coincid Formula Junior

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    This thread has continued as long as it has because the 720S may well be a paradigm shifting development. This is is a super car that looks the part, performs at a near hyper car level and is priced in line with Lambo and 488. The 720S will be the catalyst for the competition to up its game and do so expeditiously. All this is only of benefit to the car enthusiast.
     
  19. SoCal to az

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    Yes. We know. 720 rocks. Best car ever. Nothing like it in the history of....oh look....squirrel!
     
  20. Coincid

    Coincid Formula Junior

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    Sounds like "Hear No Evil, See No Evil, Speak No Evil." Ignorance is not bliss and I for one would like to hear as much as possible about any car that advances the art.
     
  21. zim32

    zim32 Rookie

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  22. SoCal to az

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    What ignorance?? What else needs to be said about the car that hasn't been said already? Is there anything new being posted? I get it. 488 sucks- 720 great. Anything else?
     
  23. waterking

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    It is not so much ignorance as it is the constant drip-drip-drip of how great the 720s is and, as stated above, we have all gotten the news on the 720s.
     
  24. Aircon

    Aircon Seven Time F1 World Champ

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    Nope. That sounds like an accurate assessment
     
  25. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 Veteran
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    Hilarious :D
     
  26. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey Formula Junior

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    The 488's improvements over the 458 fall into two categories; natural evolution and significant development. The exterior and interior design fall into the first category and they have done a sensible and sound update of a car which, itself, was already a 'marvel'. Good decision. The 488's exterior has been the most controversial judging by views of people on fchat, but since they were forced to include additional venting to feed the intercoolers, they knew that would produce a more aggressive look. Making the 488 a subtly more aggressive design all over, perhaps at the cost of some of the voluptuous beauty of the 458 but without compromising the car's overall aesthetic appeal is the sort of thing you expect of a great manufacturer.

    But, Ferraris are as much, or even more, about the driving feel as they are about appearance and luxury. And this is where Ferrari have really excelled with the 488. First, the chassis is a significant improvement over the 458, incorporating the feel of the Speciale into the new standard car. SSC is a significant piece of added software that is now across the range but was not present in the 458 - I personally really like it, and what it has allowed them to introduce into the tuning of the rest of the chassis - even more playfulness and confidence. I have now driven both Speciale and 488 extensively on road and track and still own both cars, I know you said your experience was different but I have no idea why - I can obviously only speak from my own experience and for reference I push my cars hard enough to feel what they are like at and very close to the limit. There is a very similar feeling to 488 and Speciale in terms of chassis development. Even the new P Zero tyre performs much more closely to the MIchelin Cups on the Speciale, whereas the old P Zero on the 458 was nowhere near.

    The second area where the 488 is a marvel is the engine. This affects three main areas - power, driveability and throttle response. The last two are critical to attaining the 'Ferrari feel' in terms of driving, the first, important but not critical. Being 'forced' (as I believe they were due to emissions legislation restricting further increases in compression ratio from the Speciale's 14:1) to adopt turbo, the characteristics prioritise those three elements in a different order - power, driveability, throttle respons. Exactly the reverse of where Ferrari have been heading. So, at a time when their best competitor had an engine with approximately 600nm of torque, they developed one with 760nm. The purpose of this was to spend some of that torque on a world-first idea, to turn a turbo engine into one that feels naturally aspirated in terms of throttle response, without sacrificing the massive additional power increases that turbocharging allows. By reducing the gearing and heavily managing the intervention of boost from the turbocharger, they have achieved an arguably stronger balance in all three elements compared to even the wonderful 458 engine. No, throttle response is not quite as good as the Speciale, but I would say it is as good as the 458. Either way it is very difficult to detect much of a deficit. My McLaren was nowhere near this level, nowhere.

    Turbocharged engines are actually excellent in terms of driveability on the road and the 488 doesn't sacrifice much of this by removing the 'boosty' feeling of normal turbo engines. As for power, the power is well beyond plenty, if not at the level of the 720. All in all, they were the first to come up with this idea, it works brilliantly, and it is fundamental to Ferrari playing the game they have to play but still not compromising their own style and approach. It's clever, effective and.....marvellous.

    The sound is also a key category and the third 'marvel'. Quite a controversial comment perhaps, but compared to the Mac engine, the 488 sound is a measurable step up. Both my Mac and 488 were spiders - the best format for gauging sound. The Speciale sounds great, but not as life-affirming as some here seem to suggest. Not a patch on my CS for instance. Whereas, many have criticised the 488's note but I personally like it. It is aggressive, metallic, tuneful - albeit a baritone sound, and the pops and crackles on the overrun I happen to love. Not quite as sweet as an Italia but that is an n/a engine, but the 488 is basically as good as my Speciale which has a bit more scream at the top but is far quieter on the overrun. My argument is that Ferrari are 'forced' to use turbo and as such, I don't know of a better sounding one (don't say AMG because that is not a flat plane crank engine and gives a totally different sound to what is required from a Ferrari).

    I've just come back from a 2k mile drive around France including the alps, Côte d'Azur and across country. The car was loaded full, had to cope with all kinds of driving - motorway, fast sweeping roads, shorter radius 'B' roads, alpine roads, towns, speed bumps, narrow Côte d'Azur streets, car trains, ferries, sun, torrential rain the lot. In Spider form the 488 was an absolutely exceptional tool for this task and I had a fantastic time. There were times (and I have to whisper this) where the extra power and driveability of the turbo engine were a real positive. The fact that I can have this without sacrificing that wonderful Ferrari feel, is brilliant.

    I'm not saying that the 720 wouldn't have its own fantastic moments, and many of them, on the same trip - of course it would. But you asked why the 488 is a marvel and these are some of my reasons.
     
  27. rocketman

    rocketman Formula Junior

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    Love my 488 and hope that everyone feels the same way about whatever they drive. No need for any of us to justify it. I know, at the end of the day, I am at peace with my selection.
     
  28. Coincid

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    I don't think anyone is suggesting that the 488 sucks. I would find it hard to fathom that any car enthusiast would believe that the 488 is not an exceptional vehicle that stands at the pantheon of excellence in its category. The introduction of a competitive model from a different brand does not diminish the stature of the 488, but this development is significant to car lovers since it may provide an alternative to the existing standards and even more significantly, up the game in pushing the envelope for the creation of more exciting super cars to come.
     
  29. waterking

    waterking Karting
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    Very well written. My feelings exactly.
     
  30. Lone Wolf

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    #1078 Lone Wolf, Sep 10, 2017
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    thanks for the lecture. i'll repeat myself, the 488 was the worst ferrari i've ever owned. and i've owned all of them since 1999. it simply had nothing in it.
    but i'm happy your happy with it. cheers.
    i do think actually its probably because i've been spoiled by my mclarens. i drove the Speciale today and i shortened my usual spin as the car left me annoyed and underwhelmed after a day with my LT.
    theSpeciale does make nice garage candy though! and maybe on 'slow' days an engaging drive!
     
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  31. SoCal to az

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    With all due respect, you have zero credibility with me and likely a lot of other people.
     
  32. SoCal to az

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    Have you read some of the posts on this thread?? On this page? It's sad cause I'm such a fan of what Mclaren is doing but it doesn't have to come at the expense of other cars. This is not a zero sum game. It's possible for there to be multiple great car companies.
     
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  33. dustman

    dustman Formula 3
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    Laugh
     
  34. TheMayor

    TheMayor Five Time F1 World Champ
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    This is the end, beautiful friend
    This is the end, my only friend, the end :)

     
  35. Bronzage

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    I have driven the 488 and its a great car, I own a speciale and its the biggest smile I have ever had while driving.....I just bought the 720s...and its an amazing car. Each different...each has positives and negatives.....never buy a car because of its lap time or its claims...buy it because it makes you happy...."Smiles per Gallon".....to each their own....and never hate on anyones taste, everyone has the right to their opinion as long as its not forced on another.

    But then again...what do I know....I smile at everything!!!
     
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  36. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Formula 3
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    laugh out loud! no charge for the entertainment!
     
  37. Lone Wolf

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    #1085 Lone Wolf, Sep 11, 2017
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    not looking for credibility, just the truth, and besides this stuff is just opinion fueled by serious bias/ignorance/groupthink. and last i checked this thread is 720s v.488....the comparison is unfair though, i agree, because the f-car is handicapped by legacy from the start, just look at it for cryin'outloud!!!!!!!
     
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  38. Lone Wolf

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    #1086 Lone Wolf, Sep 11, 2017
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    i agree, keep smiling and driving what you like, thats what i do to the max. i never hated on anyones taste, btw. read my post, i'm entitled to my opinion that the 488 is the worst ferrari i've ever owned. very few have my experience(for which i am very grateful and lucky and thank my personal God for...)and so maybe should do some more listenin' and thinkin' rather than babblin'...and enjoy that 720s, now that's a car! pics please...
     
  39. redcaruser

    redcaruser Formula 3
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    The 720S is a paradigm shifting? Are you kidding? The car is a few milliseconds faster than a 488 and suddenly we are talking about a paradigm shifting? Now even I get embarrassed (as a McLaren owner).

    Since these kind of cars have been built, they have become faster and faster, this is really nothing new. And each time the new mass produced cars have blasted the performance capabilities of the former hyper cars. Where exactly is the performance level of an F40 or F1? The 720S is a super fast (and ugly looking) car, which is out of question. But there will soon be even faster cars. Therefore cool down dear Mc-guys.
     
  40. Coincid

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    The 720S will be responbsible for the emergence of faster and more exciting cars. The bar has been raised. You may think the car is ugly, and clearly an argument over aesthetics is nonsensical. I happen to think the 720S is a work of art.
     
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  41. Coincid

    Coincid Formula Junior

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    I find it implausible to believe that any of the cars that interest us on this forum, whether it is a 458, 488, Huracan, Adventador, 720S, GT 3 etc, are pieces of junk. They may appeal to specific tastes and offer differing qualities, but all of them are great cars in their own right.
     
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  42. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az Formula Junior
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    Agree. Anyone who says any of these cars is junk is well....just trolling for attention.
     
  43. TheMayor

    TheMayor Five Time F1 World Champ
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    One man's meat is another man's poison....
     
  44. Bronzage

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    IMG_1897.JPG
     

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  45. Clembo

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    Did they run out of metal? Why is there a gigantic hole in the front fender?
     
  46. Lone Wolf

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    Gorgeous 720s. Love it in white, so completely modern. wow. Congratulations! Anyone who says thats ugly is just trolling for attention IMO. McLaren has moved the goalposts and is today the Driver's Choice. Ferrari is an awesome luxury brand with a rich and historic past. Good times.
     
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  47. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Rookie

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    Anyone who thinks that their own taste is God's verdict... (feel free to fill in the blank)
     
  48. Lone Wolf

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    BOOM, and there you have your next luxury product, Ferrari just confirmed an SUV!
     
  49. Coincid

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    A closed mind restricts the in flow of knowledge. The wise are filled with doubt while the ignorant seldom are.
     
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  50. Lone Wolf

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    but if you look closely enough, you'll find the ignorant are completely lost in doubt
     
  51. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey Formula Junior

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    I respect anyone's opinion who feels the 720 is good looking - for me, it is in that bandwidth where such a conclusion I can understand. However, from the first spy shots I was very sceptical. In the flesh (and I have seen it at Goodwood FOS and also parked my 488 Spider near one last weekend at a local pub) the car is better than the spy shots. There is some very interesting sculpting around the rear three quarters and in general the rear of the car seems ultra modern, interesting and really quite attractive.

    The front is where the problems are at for me. Can't stand the F1 style 'barge boards' behind the front arches, which seem to flow against the rest of the car and are almost jarring to my eyes, the canopy has more than a faint whiff of Ford Probe about it - something about all that non body colour black that I don't really like, and the eye sockets are just not attractive to me in the slightest.

    There is no doubt they have tried to give the car an ultra modern look, more so than the 488. If they had succeeded it's only a different style or approach and wouldn't make any difference to the success or otherwise of the 488, or the Huracan for that matter. But I'm in the camp that feels they didn't, quite, pull it off. Some feel that about the 488 and although I don't, again I don't think that would be an unreasonable view. Although, being a more evolutionary design, by definition it should be slightly less controversial.

    I don't think my view makes me ignorant or anything like. I know my own mind, am very comfortable with that, don't plan to visit the McLaren dealer, and can fully appreciate my own tastes don't reflect others'.
     
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  52. Bronzage

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    I absolutely agree that every one has their own opinion, and share some of your thoughts. When I saw the pics of the car from the Geneva show...I was so disgusted I even openly said to a lot of my friends "how could they get it so wrong"? I liked the rear, thought the interior is def modern but could be better....however, I saw the car in person, in a diff color....I drove it for 15 min and bought it the following day. I agree to each his own...which is why i can respect anyones comments or opinions on any car....the one thing I think we all have to take away from this is the world is doing what it should be.....which is make different cars that look different, drive different, appeal to different emotions and gives us great material for banter and competition.....otherwise we would live in a boring world.....like a bunch of un-emotional and bionic robots...who have no passion!! So thank the world for us having such problems on the best cars in the world regardless of price, performance, looks oh and whether they are a Ferrari or not.....gotta love em all....just we love some more than others!!!!

    Cant wait for the next round of new cars....will give us much more to bond about!

    MJ
     
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