MCLAREN 720S OR 488

Discussion in '458 Italia/488' started by doccharlie954, Jun 7, 2017.

  1. I have started the new week 1 FerrariChat Update poll, please vote... http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/ferrarichat-com-update-week-1-poll.560487/
  1. LVP488

    LVP488 Formula Junior

    Jan 21, 2017
    356
    Again very funny to read that - the 488 is faster not only in straight lines, and to me the added torque from the turbo is welcome for a V8.
    Meanwhile the main (if not only) advantage of the 720S over the 488 is its straight line performance, so I cannot understand how the 720S could be a game changer if the 488 is just a poor upgrade.
    I understand some people may prefer the 458 Speciale to the 488, but that should not be the same people prefering the 720S to the 488... just for consistency's sake...
     
  2. redcaruser

    redcaruser Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 8, 2012
    1,924
    switzerland
    Full Name:
    daniel
    Where is the problem if someone does not like the ugly front of the 720S?

    Someone shall show me the absolutely perfect car, the car which has not one single weakness, imo this car doesn't exist (until yet). Yes, I don't like the 720S front design (and btw McLaren has still not understood how to create a nice sound in the interior) but I'm sure, as written many times before, once I will own this baby, this car is too tempting in its entirety. McLaren has proved that the race continues, even without electricity, not a bad thing. However, still no reason to talk condescending about Ferrari. Ferrari was and is always benchmark, without Ferrari the competition would be nowhere.
     
  3. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 24, 2006
    1,055
    Highway to Hell
    the main advantage of 720s over 488 is not in a straight line, its everywhere else...the straight line is just a bonus. i see the logic you were drawing from the post but that is not what i meant.
    the 488 doesn't have a single performance parameter better than a 720s, lets call a spade a spade. now if you like the way a 488 looks, thats fine but on all important numbers its not debatable . the most important to me being the weight of the car. 488 is heavy and feels it in the turns and under braking. the 458speciale on the other hand is at least lightweight and nimble as a midV8 ferrari should be. 488 sort of a GT car but with no space or comfort of F12, or FF
     
  4. Jo Sta7

    Jo Sta7 Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 13, 2015
    1,541
    Scottsdale/Pittsburg
    Full Name:
    Jon
    Both cars are great to me. As I the 570s, and 458, and Huracan etc....
     
    Lone Wolf likes this.
  5. frefan

    frefan F1 Veteran

    Apr 21, 2004
    7,192
    I'm more of a suspension guy and IMO the 720s advantage is the chassis; its lighter, and lower COG. Straight line performance is stellar too, all around its a great package. I dont think anyone would be disappointed with it's handling.

    I tracked a 720s and a 458 back to back (wasn't any 488). 458 is more old school suspension-wise, which is fine, but with 720s you aren't having to wait so much for the weight transfers to settle before your next input. 720s handles like a go kart, you just point and shoot without having to think about timing so much. Steering is better too, I loved my 458 except the over boosted steering. My point is there is a lot more than just straight line performance.
     
    Lone Wolf likes this.
  6. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 24, 2006
    1,055
    Highway to Hell
    the over boosted steering on the 458 is one of the 'gimmicky' things i didn't like about the 488 either. i found it worse than on the speciale.
     
  7. Tired of seeing this ad? Upgrade now
  8. Coincid

    Coincid Formula Junior

    Dec 9, 2014
    286
    Maple, on.
    To summarize this long thread- 720S is beautiful and ugly. It is a breakthrough performer and it is not. It raises the existing bar for super cars and it doesn't. Die hard Ferrari devotees are sick and tired of wasting time hearing about it while those who are open to any super car of interest want more opinions and info. The 488 is no longer at the pinnacle of the supercar hierachy now being dethroned by the 720S and the 488 is still the standard bearer and there is nothing like a Ferrari nor will there ever be.
     
  9. boobernackle

    boobernackle Karting

    May 28, 2016
    159
    They should just delete all prior comments and have this comment be the only one standing... great summary.
     
  10. TheMayor

    TheMayor Five Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 11, 2008
    52,466
    Vegas baby
    Well... not quite

    Its ugly in some views.
    It's a breakthrough performer -- if that's what you are looking for
    It does raise the bar. That's a good thing.
    Yes we are sick and tired of hearing from the Mac Rah Rah club about it. Move on. You're not going to convince anyone any differently here.
    We've heard it all 10,000 times already. I feel like that scene in the Clockwork Orange where they pin the guys eyes open.
    No one cares if the 488 is "the pinnacle" of anything. We like what we like. Sue us.

    --and there is nothing like a Ferrari. That part you have correct. :)
     
  11. Coincid

    Coincid Formula Junior

    Dec 9, 2014
    286
    Maple, on.
    He states not quite- yet repeats virtually everything I stated.

    You sound like the employer in an old Fed Ex commercial where the employee comes to the boss and offers his suggestion as to how to reduce shipping costs and increase profitability by stating " we need to reduce the amount of trucks, yet simultaneously ensure full capacity, lower consumer freight prices so as to be more competive with the postal service and eliminate destinations that are not cost effective."

    The boss dismisses his suggestions as being all wrong and then states" This is what we should do instead- we need to decrease the number of trucks and at the same time make sure they carry a full load, reduce our consumer freight prices and cut out areas that are sparesly populated." The employee responds by saying " Boss you are brilliant".
     
  12. rockminster

    rockminster Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Nov 20, 2003
    455
    SF Bay Area
    I don't get this. It's an enthusiast's message board - isn't the point of a forum for people who are interested in the topic to be able to explore it? The 488 and 720S are without question competitors for the same dollars so this thread is super relevant to those who care about the cars. If you don't like the topic - don't keep visiting the thread.

    Plus, it felt to me like most of the adulation heaped on the 720S in this thread came from current or former Ferrari owners, some/most of whom, including me, have never owned a McLaren.
     
    Aircon and Lone Wolf like this.
  13. TheMayor

    TheMayor Five Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 11, 2008
    52,466
    Vegas baby

    Please do not misunderstand me. I agree it's a car forum but at some point it borders on tedium if not actual trolling.
     
  14. Tired of seeing this ad? Upgrade now
  15. TheMayor

    TheMayor Five Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 11, 2008
    52,466
    Vegas baby
    "meh".

    You whine even when someone agrees with you.

    /end
     
  16. LVP488

    LVP488 Formula Junior

    Jan 21, 2017
    356
    Since this thread is going in circles there is probably nothing new in my next comments (but probably nobody is going through the pain to read the entire thread from the start now, so it should not matter).
    When the the MP4 12C was introduced it had on paper everything to make the 458 obsolete:
    - carbon tub
    - tricky suspension
    - more power (and better straight line performance)
    Actually I thought it would, but it did not happen - and to be honest it was a disappointment to me. The 458 was actually better engineered so that it made the best of its older technology, while the Mc was not as resolved.
    Today we have the same on-paper situation between the 488 and 720S, and most probably McLaren has also moved forward so they do not completely waste their on-paper advantages.
    But the MP4 12C experience has made me cautious, and in any case I cannot see how the 720S could be considered a breakthrough...
    More power, less weight and more expensive; if properly engineered it has to be superior in some ways to a 488 (although I'm still not convinced it is, I'd need more evidence due to the MP4 12C, and up to the 675 LT, experiences). But even if it is, there is no shame for the 488 nor miracle from the 720S for that.
    Nothing new from my comments then, but I also do not expect anything new from the possible answers :)
     
  17. redcaruser

    redcaruser Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 8, 2012
    1,924
    switzerland
    Full Name:
    daniel
    I like your statement. ;)

    Two companies who want to transfer "racing" to the road. Both strive for technological leadership. In addition, McLaren would like to claim the ultimate leadership in performance for itself, Ferrari wants to be leading in regards of the factors emotion and driving experience. Two exciting marketing concepts collide.

    Although McLaren was already superior with the 12C in the performance discipline, the Ferrari has clearly gained a bigger acceptance in the market (of course, other factors have also played a role, such as general challenges for a market entry, sales and service network, etc.).

    However, with the latest product generations, something exciting has happened: with the 720S McLaren has further strengthened its brand values (as already with the 650S and the LT) and on the other hand Ferrari has started, imo in favor of a broader customer approach, to water down its core values with the 488 GTB (as described by Lone Wolf "too much GT").

    Both companies know how to build superior high tech cars. I am looking forward to the further developments.
     
    Lone Wolf likes this.
  18. Zlaatan

    Zlaatan Formula Junior

    Sep 2, 2005
    307
    I'm starting to hear quite a lot of chatter about how the build quality of the 720s is way below par. In a few instances owners have apparently even turned their cars back to Mclaren for full refunds because it's so bad. It's a brand new car and it wouldn't be the first time this have happened of course, but Mclaren's build quality doesn't really have the best rep so it would be unfortunate if this car isn't put together properly, especially since it seems to be such a great package.
    Do we think it's just teething problems or is it something to really worry about?
     
  19. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Rookie

    Feb 16, 2011
    3,639
    Bournemouth, UK
    I respectfully disagree. The fact that the 488 is more civilised at low speeds doesn't mean it's been watered down; it's just a better car all round. It hasn't lost any of the excitement (bar from the engine note) when you gun it!
     
  20. KasedyT

    KasedyT Karting

    Aug 23, 2006
    53
    NY
    Sold his 720S....not because he didn't like it but because he has another car coming but his surprise was how much he could (or couldn't) get......

     
  21. Aircon

    Aircon Seven Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 23, 2003
    70,169
    Melbourne, Australia
    Full Name:
    Peter
    Omg what was that rubbish
     
  22. FikseGTS

    FikseGTS Karting

    May 29, 2006
    82
    South Florida
    what a monster, 174 MPH in the 1/2 mile!

     
    Lone Wolf likes this.
  23. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 24, 2006
    1,055
    Highway to Hell
    'nuff said! McLaren is simply eating ferrari's(not to mention all others) lunch as they very well should. Meanwhile, Ferrari is making an SUV.....all makes perfect sense
     
  24. MANDALAY

    MANDALAY Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    May 23, 2013
    170
    AUSTRALIA
    Full Name:
    ANGELO
    Ferrari is Ferrari. I grew up wanting one as soon as I knew what cars were. The same cant be said about the McLaren, full stop. Not as fast , so what ? The Ferrari has soul, love and desire. That's what its about . Not because it can break speed records and the like. Maybe the kids of today may grow up with the same passion , but I believe cars will be a bit different in 30 - 40 years. Ferrari 70 years McLaren ??????????????
     
  25. holynitro

    holynitro Rookie

    Thursday
    13
    Full Name:
    Jeffrey
    You never go wrong with Ferrari !!
     
  26. graphicdisorder

    graphicdisorder Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 11, 2015
    253
    Johnson City, TN
    I follow him on youtube, he actually thought he'd make money on that car and he actually lost money.

    Maybe there is already a deprecation trend. My buddy has been offered 2 x 720s already, one to be fair was a terrible color spec but for dealers already to be calling for at sticker offers on a car that should be fetching over sticker... is wow.
     
  27. LVP488

    LVP488 Formula Junior

    Jan 21, 2017
    356
    And once again the 720S is praised for its straight line performance - that's not me making this up...
     
  28. KasedyT

    KasedyT Karting

    Aug 23, 2006
    53
    NY
    And I belived he was VERY surprised. He had the car for only ~8 weeks.
     
  29. Coincid

    Coincid Formula Junior

    Dec 9, 2014
    286
    Maple, on.
    That rebuttal " Ferrari is Ferrari" is as valid as stating " it is what it is." This statement justifies ignoring the competition no matter how advanced it may be.
     
    frefan likes this.
  30. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2008
    3,357
    Los Angeles
    His car was used and they have always sold at MSRP and dealers probably have demos in the same spec that he bought. Why would anyone pay more than sticker for it?

    He said he lost thousands, but said if he had kept the car another 3 months he might have lost 20-30K. So in reality, he lost probably 10K, which really isn't bad or unexpected.

    These cars don't sell over sticker and never have, so why would anyone pay sticker on a used car? I don't think there is any reason why these cars should ever fetch over sticker. The vast majority of exotics never sell over sticker, even day 1.
     
    frefan likes this.
  31. graphicdisorder

    graphicdisorder Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 11, 2015
    253
    Johnson City, TN
    Losing 10k in 8 weeks is crazy and he's got several cars so I doubt he put a bunch of miles on that car.

    A lot of people paid bumps on Ferrari's over the years who would argue you with you on that.

    I expected 720's to stick around MSRP for awhile, even slightly used, hell maybe even a bump on those since its a available car vs a car you'd have to order and wait 2 years to get as some dealers are saying.
     
  32. Coincid

    Coincid Formula Junior

    Dec 9, 2014
    286
    Maple, on.
    Spoke to McLaren Toronto on Friday and was told that the 720S was sold out till 2018 and they still have not received their allocation number for 2018 so he was not in a position to indicate delivery times.

    Will be test driving it on Thursday.
     
  33. exoticcardreamer

    exoticcardreamer Formula Junior

    Dec 9, 2014
    366
    usa
    Full Name:
    doesitmatter
    Not pointed at anyone specifically; but people should stick to what they know rather then what they think is going on;

    Facts: 2 launch cars delivered to intended customers from my dealer. Both at MSRP. Four demo/floor models sold to first time customers and all four sold at $25K above MSRP. Besides these six examples; my dealer has 37 deposits for 720s (this is as of last saturday).

    The youtuber in question; why does he have any more credibility than the people posting in this thread? Should I make a youtube video or the others who are participating in this thread with our thoughts/opinions and then people will link to it in this thread?

    Dealers aren't going to buy a car from you unless you are going to trade it in for another car. Even then; it might not be possible. Most dealers want you to consign it so they don't have any financial risk. When the new car comes in and your old cars still not sold then dealer makes a decision whether they will accept the trade (if they're desperate enough to sell the new car) or make you take the new car and still have you consign the old car.
     
  34. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2008
    3,357
    Los Angeles
    #1132 noone1, Sep 18, 2017 at 1:42 PM
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2017 at 1:52 PM
    How it it crazy? That's only like 3-4%. How could you sell it for MSRP when you can buy demos at MSRP? There are not 2 year waits for a 720S. They are more like 1 year. My dealer told me I could get it next fall if I ordered one a few weeks ago.

    He drove his car for 2 months, probably put 1K miles on it, and it's probably got some small blemishes already.

    Paying premiums on Ferraris in the US is unique to the US. That's not the reality for the rest of the world. You can walk into a Ferrari dealer in Europe and order a car at sticker, having zero history with the dealer, and get it in a reasonable amount of time. In China you could get it even quicker, never having bought one.

    Also, the idea that Ferraris would have such a better residual early on is misleading. It ignores the huge loss due to sales tax in many instances. If I buy a 488 at MSRP and sell it the next day at MSRP, I still lose roughly 20K in sales tax.

    It's very rare to move into and out of exotics quickly at anything other than a decent loss. California is probably one of the biggest markets on the planet for exotics, and they pay a 7.5% sales tax that can't even be offset on a trade-in, plus cities can charge additional tax on top. That means $20-30K losses immediately on just about every purchase.
     
    frefan likes this.
  35. Coincid

    Coincid Formula Junior

    Dec 9, 2014
    286
    Maple, on.
    #1133 Coincid, Sep 18, 2017 at 2:15 PM
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2017 at 2:21 PM
    In most jurisdictions, when a car is traded in for another, the sales tax applies to the net difference in price. Sales conducted privately lose out on the tax advantage. Consequently , purchase a 488 for $300K, pay $25K in taxes. Sell your car privately the next day for $300K and you have just suffered a $25K loss.

    Buy another $300K car and you will pay $25K in taxes again. Total -$50K in taxes.
    Trade in the same $300K car towards another $300K car. Total -$25K in taxes.
     
  36. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2008
    3,357
    Los Angeles
    Worth noting that dealers won't give you private sales prices anyway, so that potentially offsets trade-in savings as well. If you can sell it privately at MSRP, that means the dealer is offering you probably at least $10K less.

    In short, there is rarely a "cheap" way to move in and out of exotics, even Ferraris. Buying and selling cars every few months will cost you a lot of money.
     
    frefan likes this.
  37. Coincid

    Coincid Formula Junior

    Dec 9, 2014
    286
    Maple, on.
    Selling exotics privately is very difficult since in order to sell your car at a higher price to compensate for the tax benefit loss puts you very close to a dealer's selling price. Buyers feel more confident buying from a dealer, especially an authorized one than a private party. If one's goal is to minimize depreciation, purchase a desirable 5 year old car and keep it for 3-5 years. Your car will be worth almost the amount you paid for it.
     
  38. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2008
    3,357
    Los Angeles
    Yup. If you actually care about residuals and intend to actually drive a car and keep it a reasonable amount of time, this is the only intelligent way to do it. Anything else is just a matter of losing a little bit less than a boat load.
     
    frefan and Lone Wolf like this.
  39. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 25, 2012
    982
    question that is serious and not intended argue- why does Car and Driver have the 720 listed as the 4th best car?
     

    Attached Files:

  40. Aircon

    Aircon Seven Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 23, 2003
    70,169
    Melbourne, Australia
    Full Name:
    Peter
    Have you asked them?
     
  41. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 25, 2012
    982
    Yeah- let me pick up the phone and call them right now. I'm on a first name basis with their editors.
     
  42. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2008
    3,357
    Los Angeles
    Who knows? It could be ordered by anything. Could just be user traffic or views even. Surely an Aventador or Speciale would be above some random AM or an FF/Lusso...

    Most likely their order is meaningless and just based on some database values like page views * searches / likes * price for dates from X to Y...
     
    Aircon likes this.
  43. Hoagers

    Hoagers Karting

    Dec 4, 2016
    127
    Come on SC to Az you can do better than a weak lob like that... umm maybe due to the fact that they're clearly out of touch with reality? You're wondering why the same magazine that praises the Audi TTS as a clear winner, the Chevy Bolt, The Camaro, all got included in the 10 best cars in their class and you are somehow giving them some credence or respect questioning why they ranked the 720S 4th best??? Let me just venture a simple guess and state for the record that they have always favored advertising over integrity for their reviews. They've always given GM/Chevy high ratings despite their propensity for putting out garbage as long as they paid huge sums for full page ads. Ferrari pays huge amounts for ads there whereas McLaren does not. I'll put C&D right there with "The View" in terms of how much respect I give their opinions. If they put the 488 at 2oth position instead of #1 I'd give them just as much consideration - C&D, R&T both cater to whomever pays them the most with absolutely zero credibility, always have always will. If their final conclusion matches yours good for you I've never been one who cares what any "paid" mag or YouTuber says about any cars on my radar. Posting that is like quoting Rev Al Sharpton or Joel Olsteen as being a worthy and respectable authority on God.
     
    frefan and Aircon like this.
  44. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 25, 2012
    982

    why are you getting so defensive? It was a simple and sincere question.
     
    frefan likes this.
  45. Aircon

    Aircon Seven Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 23, 2003
    70,169
    Melbourne, Australia
    Full Name:
    Peter
    You have to be kidding.
     
  46. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 25, 2012
    982
    no. Im not kidding. As I stated it was a serious and sincere question. 70000+ posts by you. How many are more than one sentence?
     
  47. phanliu

    phanliu Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 21, 2015
    333
    Illinois
    Full Name:
    Noel
    Agree! Just an observation from SoCal to az. Nothing to troll about!

    It's probably just who gave C&D a better hospitality at their press invite! Maybe C&D felt compelled to put 488 at #1. Again it's only an opinion from C&D - nothing set in stone or if there is any universal formula to measure the rankings based on endless variables. Just take it with a grain of salt :). We are all happy with our Ferraris and we have opinionated in our minds they're #1 for us!
     
  48. Aircon

    Aircon Seven Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 23, 2003
    70,169
    Melbourne, Australia
    Full Name:
    Peter
    Not many.
    Did you read the article attached to the photo you posted? That might have given you some insight into your question, and then you could have enlightened us instead of keeping us guessing.
     
  49. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 25, 2012
    982
    Hey- 3 sentences. Congratulations.
     
  50. Aircon

    Aircon Seven Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 23, 2003
    70,169
    Melbourne, Australia
    Full Name:
    Peter
    Thanks, and thanks for your informative post.
     
    Flo400 likes this.
  51. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey Formula Junior

    Mar 3, 2012
    811
    It's not correct to say that you can get a Ferrari in a short time in Europe, at least not the European country I live in. Long wait for a 488, especially Spider.

    The price to sell back to the dealer takes VAT into account and there would be no loss for a well enough specified Spider, maybe a small loss for a GTB which is a 2-3 year old car now. At the 720's age, the car would have sold at a net premium for an early return vehicle.

    Does the market not take sales tax into account in the US? And if not, the YouTubers experience must have been after deducting the sales tax surely?

    As for Road and Track, it's all too easy to dismiss a magazine's view. But they make a living from writing about what they think. You may say it's biased, influenced by advertising, lazy, ill-advised, whatever. But they support themselves from their opinions and we don't. There is absolutely nothing for them to defend by putting Ferrari as a preference ahead of McLaren. So does the market.

    As for the rest of us, you have a right to disagree with them, it's only their view. But to simply dismiss them mockingly because they don't share your view seems to me childish.

    No doubt had 720 been at the top, we would have heard about it sooner.
     
  52. LVP488

    LVP488 Formula Junior

    Jan 21, 2017
    356
    In every assessment many factors are considered and weighted - and unless there is a blatant superiority of one contender the result will depend on what is valued most.
    That's why I understand some may prefer a 720S to anything else, but I do not agree when they claim there is no other sensible decision.
    An interesting point in the listing is the pricing - there is actually more price difference between the 488 GTB and 720S than between the 720S and 812S.
    To me the 488 is a better value for money than the 720S (note that it is not denying the 720S is faster in a straight line) and should I consider spending significantly more money I'd rather go for a 812S.
     

Share This Page