Merged: 0117 S - This Week's Barn Find

it may be a bitsa but the current motor is a lot more appropriate than a chebby, imho. it is a ferrari motor and sounds correct at least. and it is a relatively low maintenance lump until a more original motor can be located.

tom w

 

For sale here, some interesting period pictures, I am wondering how much they're asking...

http://www.vdvgrant.be/sale.php?id=267

 

IMO, a 1951 Ferrari with a 1964 motor is almost as bad as a 1955 Chevy with a 1968 Chevy motor....but it's not my car, and the owner is obviously free to do as he wishes...

 

true

but a ferrari with a chebby motor is like a chebby with a caterpillar diesel motor imho.

the chebby must be a lot heavier than the all aluminum ferrari motor.

tom w

 

A modern(er) motor in an old interesting car is just wrong IMO ... does not matter what name is on the cam cover.

Pete

 

nice thread, nice car, i m always enjoy when i see a barn find by Massini.

 

I agree with kare and Tom W, surely it's better for the moment that the car is out and being used and no longer deteriorating, at least no one is pretending it's something that it isn't.
Also I didn't realise Peter Helm once owned it - we should feel lucky that it survived at all!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

It is a Mr. Fix-It special no matter what, so the GT/E-engine is just fine. "As is" it represents a timewarp from 1960's. a GT/E engine installed in 1960's is a more honest choise than a 195-engine installed in 2007. That car has more soul than many correct (?) restorations!

 

The way it was.

T308
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yep.

if mine i would install narrower tires and spiff it a bit and just have fun with it.

i have never heard of someone duplicating an enclosed car such as the one it had originally. that seems a bit like someone taking a gto replica based on a pf coupe and removing the gto body and reconstructing a pf coupe body.

it would be a tough job to do without losing your shorts, i think.

tom w

 

Wouldn't that be great though. All you would have to do is find a discarded pf coupe shell ... Ofcourse financially it might not make sense but from a historic/classic car viewpoint it would be great .

Returning to this car, I could see somebody recreating the original body if the MM entry part of it's history got them excited ... other cars have had things done like this. BUT even humble cars entered the MM, simply many hours before the serious cars.
Pete

 

would a mm entry make it worth a lot more?

tom w

 

There are any number of late 1940s and early 1950s Ferraris with modern reproduction coachwork that have sold for $1 million or more, including Jim's 002C. The chassis has Mille Miglia 1951 history. Spend $250,000 on the proper motor and building a replica of the Motto body. You have now turned a $200,000 car into a million dollar car, and made a BIG profit. I don't really understand why some wealthy dealer/broker hasn't done this yet....

 

Yeah but maybe the won the MM ... not just competed in it

Pete

 

Sorry Stu, but I think you've gone off the deep end on this one.

A reproduction closed coachwork by an obsure maker does necessarily add value. By the same argument, you should throw away 030MTs Fontana body (which it wore during it's later racing career and 95% of it's existence) to replace it with the touring body it wore for the first few months of it's life.

While I agree having the car in its original, numbers matching, state would be best, this is no longer possible. By recreating what the car was when new, you wou would lose most of the car's history and the resulting vehicle would be mostly a replica. Besides, this body and chassis have been together since the original MM was still being run. Therefore, you could make a valid argument that the car qualifies for the current MM as is.

Personally, if racers were my cup of tea and I had the money, I'd buy this car in a heartbeat and drive the wheels off it!

Regards,

Art S.

 

me too.

think they would trade even for my pf?

noooooo.

tom w

 

I agree one 100% with you here, Art!!!

 

I believe the chassis is by far, the main component of a car, and the engine is the 2nd most important component. I choose chassis over engine due to the fact that many cars had engine changes "in period".

My point was that even with a reproduction body, if the proper motor could be obtained (I believe it still exists) you would have a 1951 car with Mille Miglia history.

It's not the fact that the original body is by Motto that makes it valuable; it's that you have the major component of a 1951 Mille Miglia car; the chassis.

Heck, even 01C/010I (which still has a lot of unresolved questions about what it really is) and 002C have reproduction coachwork, and they are still considered 1948 cars.....and worth a lot more money as such than if they had the wrong motor.

I'm not saying throw away the spider body either.

 

It's interesting that May Forza has an article on 0666 that covers similar issues.

I agree with Stu. The Body is interesting but non original and the motor isn't correct on any level. This is a case where an MM car's original chassis exists.

I'd do as Stu suggests either with Sal/a top shop/ or Ferrari Classiche and wind up with a MM eligible car, that fully disclosed is what it is, but is, as the chassis is original, an original car restored to proper configuration.

The cost would leave you underwater for a few years but after a while this would become a valuable car much more valuable IMO than it is in this configuration.

 

People are actually stil discussing 666? (Haven't seen the new Forza yet)

 

Stu,

Lots of pretty pictures of 666 in the current issue.

Regarding 117, your ideal situation would be to use the parts currently on 117 as the basis of 3 cars 117 (the chasis) the 121 (I forget the SN at the moment) and the 250 GTE (mechanical bits).

While a nobile cause, aren't people taking apart nice closed PF cars to make fake Barchettas? This one is already done and it was done in the '50s. There is value to the car's history in it's present form. Think of it as a vintage hotrod and a vintage Ferrari all in one!

That said, depending on the circumstances, the may be a valid argument to returning the original engine to the car. If it exists.

Regards,

Art S.

 

I think you know how I feel about people destroying 250s and 330s to make GTO and other "replicars". About the same way as I feel about George Bush. Execute them for high crimes against society...

 

What is the history of the car as the 'spider'?

If it was interesting then there is an argument for leaving it has it is ... still prefer a more correct engine.

In the end the history of important classics is what it is all about, for most collectors. Yeah we love restoring and driving them, but it is ever so cool to discuss any impressive history the car once had ... I can only imagine what it is like to own an Le Mans winner, etc.

Also while I fully appreciate that money and costs have to come in to it, I would love to see more people restoring and looking after these old cars because they just want to ...

If I ever get rich enough there will be a few less GTO, etc. replicas on this planet ... yeah I might loose money but I'll feel bloody friggin good driving that 250/330 GT that has been reborn.

Pete
BTW: This car is not a replica, so we should not be moving this discussion in that direction .

 

I am the new owner of 117 and I shall be delighted to exchange with you some information on this automobile; know that from my part the car will stay as much as possible in this state of origin and that the restoration will be very superficial: I have now an almost complete history of the automobile and I think of credit note also the donor of the body Scaglietti which shall be very probably one 500 mondial series two.are you interested by this .
Guy

 

Welcome Martteen,
Congrats on the new purchase. I for one would be most interested to watch the progress with its new owner.