Miura #3150 P400

Discussion in 'LamborghiniChat.com' started by omgjon, May 17, 2017.

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  1. omgjon

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    #1 omgjon, May 17, 2017
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    This beautiful Miura came to me June 15 2016. I remember the day well!!! I was waiting for the transport and I got a call that he was running 2 hours late. Perfect I thought, I can get my bicycle ride in. I was about 2 miles from finishing my ride at my shop when I got taken out with a hit and run driver. While laying on the side of the road I could hear my cell phone ringing from the middle of the road. Some people had stopped to help me and one retrieved my phone and answered it. It was the transport driver waiting at my shop to deliver the Miura!!!. A few calls to friends from the hospital and the Miura got tucked in my shop safe and well, more than I could say about me!!. So I will always remember the day it arrived.
    A week later I was back at work working one handed along with my helper as we took it apart. The thing I remember most was pulling the door panels off and seeing remnants of the original color. Can't get any better than a Verde Miura original color. There was quite a bit of rust and lots of metal work was required to get it back into shape. After media blast and metal work it was sent to Brad Diez at Speedzone paint who did a great job on it. Once again it's tucked safely back in my shop to start with reassembly of all the parts we worked on while getting painted. This car had it original basketweave on the seats with is no longer available anywhere. Luckily we were able to save the material when we re-did the seats. Here is a few pictures of progress.
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  2. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Fabulous progress in 1 year! Bravo Jon.
     
  3. omgjon

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    #3 omgjon, May 17, 2017
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    Here is more pictures of the metal work, media blast etc.
    IMG_2932-1.JPG
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  4. EarlyCat

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    Very nice & great work. Peter Egan (ROAD & TRACK magazine writer) once said riding a bike, not a motorcycle, was one of the most dangerous things one could do. I think he might be right.
     
  5. cnpapa24

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    Jon, I've posted a few photos in the Miura thread along the way, but it's nice to have its own thread as well. This is definitely a special car for me and a life long dream. I'm certain that it is in the right hands and thank I Joe for connecting us. Since you've started a thread on the car, I will post some photos of the car prior to the work starting as well as the provenance of the car. The work done to date has been nothing short of stellar and I look forward to seeing the reassembly process. Chris Dugan, who restored Joe's well known ex-Mimran downdraft is responsible for the engine work.
     
  6. Doc_K

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    Oh man! Please don't stop posting pics! :)
     
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  8. Lemacc

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    #7 Lemacc, May 18, 2017
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    Great work!! Without beeing to pedantic, the driveshaft color is not correct.
    Here are some old original ones, just for your info! :)
    IMG_3752.jpg
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  9. cnpapa24

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    Thanks for the heads up! We definitely want everything to be to original spec.
     
  10. cnpapa24

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    Here is the history on the car:

    HISTORY

    1967 - Telaio 3150, motore 1370, 74th Miura built, delivered Oct 5, 1967 to Roberto Carpanelli (Lamborghini's Rome concessionaire). Verde/Nero.

    1974 - Imported to the US via an airline pilot based in North Carolina.

    1978 - Sold to Lamborghini collector Jack Robinson in Arizona to join his Miura SV. He repainted the car Giallo Miura. The car was then featured in Automobile Quarterly vol 23, No. 1 (1985), and pictured on AQ poster "Lamborghini - The Quest for Perfection".

    1985 - Engine rebuilt by famed racing engineer Alf Francis (Stirling Moss's F1 mechanic)

    1986 - Bought by Dave Gamret, Ford Motor Co's Design Engineer, who also owned a Countach LP400.

    1989 - Gamret had the car repainted yellow with correct PPG Giallo Miura paint he got directly Bertone SpA.

    1990 - Owned briefly by renowned Ferrari collector and 250 GTO owner Chris Cox.

    1991 - Bought by Nick England from Chris Cox with mileage just @ 5,800 km.

    2014 - Bought by me from Nick England with mileage @ 10,500 km, documented over the 23 year ownership.

    2016 - Nut and Bolt restoration commenced.
     
  11. cnpapa24

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    #10 cnpapa24, May 18, 2017
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    Here is the photo of when the car was featured in Automobile Quarterly vol 23, No. 1 (1985):
    IMG_0154.JPG
     
  12. cnpapa24

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    #11 cnpapa24, May 18, 2017
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    Here are some photos of the car during the inspection in June of 2014. It was a very nice and original car, with no accident history, that was ready for a restoration after nearly 50 years.
    1967-Muira-3150-CP-73.jpg
    1967-Muira-3150-CP-74.jpg
     
  13. cnpapa24

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    #12 cnpapa24, May 18, 2017
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    ...
    1967-Muira-3150-CP-77.jpg
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  15. cnpapa24

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    #13 cnpapa24, May 18, 2017
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    ..
    1967-Muira-3150-CP-125.jpg
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  16. cnpapa24

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    #14 cnpapa24, May 18, 2017
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    All original badges are with the car:
    1967-Muira-3150-CP-112.jpg
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  17. cnpapa24

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    #15 cnpapa24, May 18, 2017
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    Original interior with basketweave inlays were with the car. Basketweave is to be reused on new interior as it is NLA. Original shift knob and steering wheel badge.
    1967-Muira-3150-CP-71.jpg
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  18. cnpapa24

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    #16 cnpapa24, May 18, 2017
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    KMs at time of inspection. Original Jaeger gauges.
    1967-Muira-3150-CP-119.jpg
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  19. cnpapa24

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    #17 cnpapa24, May 18, 2017
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    All original Carello lamps:
    1967-Muira-3150-CP-102.jpg
    1967-Muira-3150-CP-154.jpg
     
  20. cnpapa24

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    #18 cnpapa24, May 18, 2017
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    Original glass:
    1967-Muira-3150-CP-28.jpg
     
  21. omgjon

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    #19 omgjon, May 18, 2017
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    Progress pictures from Day 1 of reassembly. Mostly suspension.
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  22. Andrew R.

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    Thanks for sharing your story, very cool... and you must be very proud! Nice to see the car going back to the original color.

    Feel free to give me a call, happy to help with some of the small details that you can easily remedy to be as original.

    Again, congrats and look forward to seeing the car on the road!
     
  23. cnpapa24

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    Thanks, Andrew. Feel free to post what you see that is incorrect here so that everyone can benefit.
     
  24. Andrew R.

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    #22 Andrew R., May 19, 2017
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    Per request of Chris, I am posting some of my comments on photos of this car here so that others can benefit from the information.

    Regarding the driveshafts, which have the same color as the rear springs (and shocks if they have not been rebuild and repainted by Koni - which many people leave to the Koni orange instead of painting like Lamborghini did during production of the cars)... here are some pics.

    The Lamborghini factory painted the driveshafts after assembly. I powder coated mine before assembly, and then touched up with liquid paint areas taped off for assembly where appropriate. The color match was done from sampling an NOS piece from Lamborghini... which was compared and verified by carefully cleaning an area of the existing parts on my car.

    So in this photo of the finished work, I had not yet touched up the spots where the snap-rings are. (The before photo is what the shaft looked like when pulling off of the car.)

    Some people have called this over-kill because they just used a spray can, but if you want the job done right... it takes time!

    Regarding the u-joints. You can buy spicer u-joints, and then have the cups ground down just a few thousandths (a center-less grinding shop can do this easily)
    Miura driveshaft - BEFORE refinish by Andrew.jpg
    Miura driveshaft - AFTER refinish by Andrew.jpg
     
  25. Andrew R.

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    #23 Andrew R., May 19, 2017
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    Here are some before and after photos from another Miura... not everything was done in the area, just items that needed attention for maintenance purposes, but since I was touching them - they were done properly.

    -New wheel bearings
    -Axles, originally clean steel.. but did a black oxide treatment
    -Brake rotors, originally clean steel... but did black oxide treatment (brakes not yet bedded in to wear off the black oxide on the contact area)
    -complete rebuild of brakes with new pads & rubber lines
    -complete rebuild of shocks (internals done by Koni authorized shop)
    -greasing of upper & lower ball joints (yes you can do the upper with a grease needle attached to the grease gun)
    -cleaning and re-plating of the original nuts that were removed for this service work
    compare.jpg
    Miura work - before & after.jpg
     
  26. cnpapa24

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    Andrew, thanks for your comments. Can I ask what model and serial number Miura you are referencing to make certain we are comparing apples to apples? Also, in your last post can you clarify what you are seeing specifically in the work that was done to the suspension and brake assembly that is not to original spec as it was not clear to me from you post. Thank you.
     
  27. joe sackey

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    #25 joe sackey, May 19, 2017
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    Bravo Jon, I know this is a labor of love for you and we'll help ensure all the finishes are correct-for-period.

    To that end, Leo is correct http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/145379922-post7.html the drive shafts should be refinished to make the period-correct.

    Many people suggest that the only correct color is is the Azzuro Clielo (light blue) that is commonly asserted, but that's not always correct because Lamborghini NEVER had just one single finishing application for all components during the production run of any given Miura variant. If they ran out of light blue paint and Luigi brought back darker blue paint, guess what they did? They used darker blue paint! Here is another sampling of an original unit for comparison, and I'm happy to come down in person and deliberate over this.
    dsb.jpg
     
  28. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Chris I don't know many Miura P400 with just 6,000 miles!

    In fact, I can think of just 2 other P400 with lower mileage, one a very original example with @ 4,000 miles that lives literally 5 mins from me, and another with just 2,000 miles that is still with its original owner (!) that lives @ 30 mins away.
     
  29. joe sackey

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    #27 joe sackey, May 19, 2017
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    That's not entirely correct.

    First of all, some P400 had Armstrong shocks and then some had Konis.

    The P400 Armstrong shock shown has been seen in a number of different color combinations, as seen below, both correct for a P400.

    The first image shows the much-vaunted 3216, a car that still remains with its original owner with just 2,000 miles on the clock. You can see the Armstrong shocks are orange, and the (front) springs are green - rears are light blue.

    The second images shows 3610, and you can see the Armstrong shocks are silver, and the rear springs are blue.

    Of course, we should note that the P400 production started with Armstrong shocks, which were subsequently replaced with Koni shocks (probably since Armstrongs were not rebuildable) but the cutoff during P400 production is not clear.

    You can tell the difference at the bottom of the shock when the car is in the air because the Armstrong shock has a round shoulder at the bottom of the tube, whereas the Koni has a square shoulder at the bottom of the tube.

    Konis were typically painted orange, but, I have seen at least one original car with Konis painted blue!

    The point is, there were constant ongoing production variances throughout Miura production from P400 to SV and it is simply wrong to say "xyz is correct for all Miuras" or even for all P400.
    The_Miura_that_time_forgot_(3216)-14.jpg
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    1223.jpg
     
  30. joe sackey

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    #28 joe sackey, May 19, 2017
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    Any reason why black oxide was used liberally to cover everything including hub spline, brake contact area and even the spindle threads?

    Surely the more sympathetic & professional way to do this would be to mask off the areas that do not need this application?

    Later variant used for illustration, but you get the idea.
    5656.jpg
     
  31. joe sackey

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    #29 joe sackey, May 19, 2017
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    Chris, speaking of apples to apples, here is my neighbor's 3598, and it also has a basket-weave interior, except in Senape.

    Beautifully original P400, and terrific reference point.
    2050823d1428258034-miura-original-supercar-wow.jpg
    2050826d1428258050-miura-original-supercar-6476-original-miles-new.jpg
    2050827d1428258058-miura-original-supercar-carello.jpg
    2050828d1428258071-miura-original-supercar-original-running-sticker.jpg
     
  32. joe sackey

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    #30 joe sackey, May 19, 2017
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  33. Andrew R.

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    #31 Andrew R., May 19, 2017
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    Yes, items that were clean metal were treated with black oxide - this was a choice of mine that many others do instead of leaving as clean metal to rust. It looks like your example shows paint on the rotors, is that more or less correct than black oxide? They were clean steel from the factory.

    Regarding the brake contact area, it was clean metal again as soon as I drove the car.

    Regarding sympathetic and professional.. please post photos of the details of Miuras that you have consulted on the restoration of, it would be a good reference for the guys who are currently doing restorations.
     
  34. Andrew R.

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    #32 Andrew R., May 19, 2017
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    The driveshafts were all done in light blue. Sand or scrape that paint that you believe to be darker blue and you will find that it's light blue (if it's original)

    With it being oil soaked and grimy, the color of the blue looks like it varies on the same piece shown in the photo.
     
  35. Andrew R.

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    #33 Andrew R., May 19, 2017
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    Yes Joe, I know the early Miuras had Armstrongs. My example is of the Konis. I will post some photos of original Armstrongs for everyone's reference.

    There were variations during production, but not as many as people think.

    Regarding the color on Koni's, they were all "Koni orange" FROM Koni, and then painted at the Lamborghini factory before installation on the car, either green for the front, or light blue for the rear. For all of the Koni's on the Miuras. Oddly, they did not paint the top mounting loop, that stayed orange. A factory old timer told me that this was because they often dipped the shocks in paint up to the rod gland, but did not going higher than that, so the shaft and upper mount stayed clean.

    You often see them in orange because when people through the years had them rebuilt, they would come back from koni in orange (Koni would clean and respray them and put a fresh decal on them), and people would just leave them that way and reinstall on the car.
     
  36. omgjon

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    #34 omgjon, May 19, 2017
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    Putting in the lifeblood today, new wiring harness we made.
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  37. cnpapa24

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    Thanks Andrew and Joe for your feedback. A few good catches that are easily correctable at this stage of the process. We will circle back on some of these items and redo to factory spec. Much appreciated!
     
  38. Andrew R.

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    #36 Andrew R., May 19, 2017
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    Regarding the Armstrong shocks on the early Miuras, here is exactly what the fronts (green spring) and rears (light blue spring) should look like. Also notice the matching color of the driveshaft in the photo of the rear shock. Also note the color the shock bodies.

    *Note: you see that some use the wire mesh spacers, and some do not.. they can be used for fine tuning of the ride height of the car.
    Front Armstrong.jpg
    Rear (3).jpg
    Rear (2).jpg
     
  39. alberto

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    Anyone have a source for the correct wire mesh used for the shocks?
     
  40. joe sackey

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    Understood, I was simply curious about the liberal application of black oxide to cover everything from hub spline, brake contact area and even the spindle threads, but recognize that individual choice was the reason as you state.

    We can agree to disagree like gentlemen. My experience with Miuras has taught me that there were constant ongoing production variances throughout Miura production, and to say "the driveshafts were ALL done in light blue" is indisputably incorrect. Furthermore, the driveshafts in the images provided by Leo http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/145379922-post7.html and by myself http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/145381985-post25.html show zero traces of Azzuro Cielo anywhere despite their original and paint-chipped nature.

    Yes, there were, the extent to which is clearly the subject of some conjecture. We have seen in other makes & models where people try to 'standardize' the accepted knowledge over time, but my feeling is that the Miura is really one of those cars where you have to know what was correct for the individual car, as I find literally no two Miuras to be exactly alike in detail even if they came with the same basic color specification.

    Some of the early P400 had Armstrongs with the tops in a silver color (such as 3610 posted).
     
  41. Peter K.

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    These are by far the best threads! Amazing work.
     
  42. bb4635

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    #40 bb4635, May 20, 2017
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    Hi Chris,

    Why are you saying that the Basketweave vinyl is NLA ? is it really NLA in USA nowadays ?
    (I had in mind that Reoriginals was still offering it...)
    In Europe, we are stil able to source freshly remade basketweave vinyl for our cars restoration.

    This product was commonly used in many European passenger cars from the 70's (Alfa-Romeo, Peugeot, etc...).

    To date, I've identified EU-based Companies offering the exact basketweave vinyl used on the Miura in the Senape, Beige, dark Brown, and Black colors - unfortunately not the blue color as used on the bak of the seats of my P400S (see pict.)... But perhaps Bruno Paratelli - in Italy - has it ?...

    And congrats for your great job and the fact of sharing it here !
    New Basketweave Vinyl Black.jpg
    Red Peugeot Basketweave Vinyl.jpg
    Blue Basketweave Miura #4635 original - copie.jpg
     
  43. pylon

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    Many thanks to Jon and Chris for the photos and the restoration effort. It is really great to see my old car getting back to original.
    Nick, lucky enough to have had 3150 for 20 fun years
     
  44. omgjon

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    Yes, that basketweave is available. The basketweave on #3250 is slightly different and not available.
     
  45. cnpapa24

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    #43 cnpapa24, May 21, 2017
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    Thank you for the kind words. We had gotten the basketweave from reoriginals but it was not the same as what was in 3150 as you can see in the attached photo. Based on the condition and everything else being original in the interior we had no reason to believe the basketweave in the car was not original. Has anyone else every seen this basketweave pattern in an early Miura before? Here it is vs the reoriginals basketweave.
    IMG_0181.jpg
     
  46. cnpapa24

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    Hi Nick,

    A pleasure to hear from you! Glad you are following the thread. Perhaps you can shed some light on the basketweave seat inserts. Is what was in the car original as far as you are aware?

    I hope all is well with you.

    Very best,


    Chris
     
  47. joe sackey

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    #45 joe sackey, May 21, 2017
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    The difference is Hexagonal weave pattern versus Square weave pattern.

    I've done a little further research, and the factory most definitely used them BOTH at the point of production during the P400 run, reinforcing, yet again, the understanding that many Miura production variations that occurred.

    For example, here is 1021, its had the hexagonal weave pattern for the vinyl basketweave seat inserts - hard to see in these images, but it's there.
    011.jpg
    P1030363.jpg
     
  48. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #46 joe sackey, May 21, 2017
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    Here is 3015 with the hexagonal weave pattern.

    Note it even still has the forked-spoke early wood wheel covered in grey vinyl with factory stitching - which I will illustrate later.
    L-Chat-2.jpg
     
  49. joe sackey

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    #47 joe sackey, May 21, 2017
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  50. cnpapa24

    cnpapa24 Formula 3
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    That's exactly it, thanks again, Joe!
     
  51. joe sackey

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    #49 joe sackey, May 21, 2017
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    Here is 3216, an original car showing headrests in the square weave pattern.

    As an aside - before anyone gets too excited, those seats are original too, yet another - you guessed it - production variation. Miura number 84 built late 1967 and has had just one owner from new, having covered a grand total of 1,850 miles. I had a private audience and inspected it my self over several hours, and it can only be described as stunningly original. When the gentleman bought it in 1967, he already had purchased a brand new Porsche 904 (he still has that car also, it lives next to the Miura) in 1964. He liked the 904 very much, and one feature, he especially liked. The all-cloth seats were cool in the summer, warm in the winter, and held him firmly in place during cornering. So he traveled to Italy and asked Ubaldo Sgarzi to build his Miura with same, and the car was duly thus delivered having been flown to LAX via KLM. These are all-fabric seats (some kind of industrial Mohair or Felt), the whole seat, not just the inserts. The undersides are basketweave vinyl.
    The_Miura_that_time_forgot_(3216)-26.jpg
    The_Miura_that_time_forgot_(3216)-33.jpg
    The_Miura_that_time_forgot_(3216)-30.jpg
     
  52. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #50 joe sackey, May 21, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The early wood wheels were sometimes covered in grey vinyl with a peculiar stitching, and sometimes they were left naked wood.

    I'm told this was a random thing, determined simply by how much time they had to spend on a given car.


    3216 has the covered wood wheel, see below.
    The_Miura_that_time_forgot_(3216)-32.jpg
     

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