Miura #3150 P400 | Page 3 | FerrariChat

Miura #3150 P400

Discussion in 'LamborghiniChat.com' started by omgjon, May 17, 2017.

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  1. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    #51 joe sackey, May 21, 2017
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    Here you can see 0979 with the same treatment, as driven by Karl Ludvigsen when NEW, illustrated in an image taken by Karl himself, given to me personally by him.
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  2. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    #52 joe sackey, May 21, 2017
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    As a well-known student of Miura components has publicly stated:
    “This photo is to answer the question ‘what color blue was used on many Miura driveshafts and springs?’, this does not answer the question of what is correct on a specific Miura”.

    With this in mind and the knowledge that there were many production nuances and variations as Miura production went along, yesterday I chatted with a gentleman who actually worked on the Miura assembly line at Automobili Lamborghini SpA from 1967 through 1972 for the entire Miura production. If anyone is curious, this is not Valentino, this gentleman's specific job was as a chassis engineer responsible for suspension development - I think we can all guess correctly who he is.

    His input confirms what we basically already know:

    For the P400, Automobili Lamborghini employed the Hardy Spicer/Fabbri (TS-03640) splined driveshaft, these units finished in a range of shades of blue from Azzuro Cielo (light blue) to Blu Miura (medium blue). We have already posted indisputable evidence of the latter. The reason for the variances in shades of blue? It was determined by supplies & logistics.

    At some point towards the end of P400 production and on into P400S production, the Unicardin/Lobro (TS-07768/69) driveshaft with constant velocity (CV) joints was employed, these latter units usually finished in Nero (black). So, there are actually some late P400 delivered with black CV driveshafts.

    The reason that production upgrades did not occur seamlessly at the end of a variant’s run? As anyone on the Miura build team can confirm, in 1967/68/69, production upgrades did not occur seamlessly at the end of a variant’s run, but were the result of on-the-fly improvements as production went along, some of which were left entirely to the discretion of the build team and needed little if any approval from upper management! This is especially true of the P400, over, say, the later SV, for example, because after 1970, production slowly started to become more standardized.

    Interestingly, upon review I see that I covered most of this in my Miura book The Lamborghini Miura Bible ? Joe Sackey | Joe Sackey Classics of a decade ago.

    The moral of the story is that, anytime the word “ALL” is used for Miura production even within the variants, this is indisputably incorrect as it misrepresents fact with a modified recounting of what transpired to suit limited experience and simplify what really happened.

    As is proven, there were many production nuances and variations as Miura production went along, the aforementioned underscores just a part of this, and I went to not inconsiderable lengths to illustrate this in my book. As the saying goes - just because you havent seen it, doesn’t mean it didn't happen!

    Lastly, as regards the Armstrong shocks (SA-03806 & 7), it’s worth noting that what we loosely describe as an “orange” top was in fact usually copper metallic, a color which Armstrong was fond of using for its products - so a correction is due if we are to be precise. Below is a NOS example of an Armstrong rear shock showing the copper metallic top FWIW.
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  3. Andrew R.

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    #53 Andrew R., May 21, 2017
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
    Well, I am a proud student: I learn something new everyday, and I learn a ton every time I have the fortunate chance to look over an example example! (the un-restored examples are the most interesting!) Almost 100 Miuras to date and counting.

    On the topic of the Miura, we are all students!
     
  4. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Good to hear.

    In order to continue to learn, it is much better to be pragmatic rather than dogmatic, and so far as we stay away from blanket statements suggesting that all cars were built a certain way to a specific finish, I think we'll be just fine.

    I continue to learn every day myself, and not just from the machines as they exist today, but from the men who built them when new, and, period documents/illustrations/diagrams/photographs. This way, you get the whole picture, and not only learn what different things were done, but why and how.
     
  5. Olivier NAMECHE

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    #55 Olivier NAMECHE, May 22, 2017
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  6. Bertocchi

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    I too am a student and have had the enormous privilege of working along side of many of the good men that built Italian sports in the 1960s & 70s.
    Each time I questioned them about technical details such as those discussed here, they were confused by my interest and shrugged the questions off. The production numbers for such cars are minute compared to other cars and the assembly line workers installed whatever was supplied at the time. Suppliers and later on ownership of the company varied.
    The biggest lesson for me has been that anyone who emphatically states "this is the way it was" is likely to be incorrect. We all keep learning daily and it is pursuit of such knowledge that drives many of us and it is, for me, the undeniable charm of all things Italian.
    I cherish the information exchanges that occur here daily and try to contribute when I have information worthwhile to share. Thanks to all.
     
  7. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Thank you for the supplementary images Olivier, yet another production variance established via photographic evidence, the works used both Hexagonal & Square patterned basketweave vinyl, intermittently and randomly, apparently without any rhyme or reason.

    Why?

    I am told it was simply a matter of logistics: supply availability, and sometimes it was something as simple as the fact that Lamborghini had not paid its bills with one supplier so they opened a letter of credit with another!

    Truth.
     
  8. omgjon

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    #58 omgjon, May 22, 2017
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  9. EMILIO

    EMILIO F1 Veteran

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    i think i have seen them
    :)

    yes, i agree that they came in more than one shade
     
  10. Olivier NAMECHE

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    #60 Olivier NAMECHE, May 23, 2017
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    Allow me to correct this assertion...

    1. Lamborghini SpA was always paying his crédits while belonging to Ferruccio Lamborghini, never he was in debts. This only started with the critical management of Rosetti & Leimer, and later happened again ! Some of the period actors confirmed it to me : Mallossi, Sgarzi, Pussich, Stanzani, Dallara,

    2. As you know Bertone was supplying the Miura on troleys to Lamborghini SpA.
    They were already completed with electrical harness, full interior, lights, Windows, etc
    Lamborghini linea montaggio was only assembling the mechanical fields. Again confirmed...

    3. conclusion, Bertone was paying (or not) the bills to local contractors or italian contractors for interior components, if it happened it was not Lamborghini...

    the below pic demonstrates it was shoot at Bertone facility and in the shade you can notice the headrest, which means the interior was fitted, thus Bertone paid for and charged/invoiced Lamborghini for the complete car without mechanical parts !
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  11. Ellagirl

    Ellagirl F1 Rookie

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    Ha so true,remindes me of the powerboat bussiness in the 80 s and 90 s, also i recognise this vinyl from the European boat manufacturers in the 70 s, great post, so true,
     
  12. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Thank you for this.

    So, in effect, Bertone SpA was a 'Lamborghini' supplier.
     
  13. Olivier NAMECHE

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    correct, but you mentionned it in your book too
     
  14. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Yes, for good reason.

    Claudio Zampolli worked @ Automobili Lamborghini SpA from 1967 to 1975, so he built Miuras from the P400 to the SV. He was pretty adamant that there were some logistical issues during Miura production. He points the use of certain differing suspension, running gear & engine components as proof of this.

    I personally interviewed a Miura owner who purchased new Miura in an attempt to corroborate this.

    (Sir) Michael Kadoorie went to the factory expecting to pick up his brand new Miura S 4311, but it was delayed because of logistical issues - he was told this personally by Bob Wallace. As a result he checked into the Grand Hotel in Bologna and spent a week waiting for the required supplies to get the car completed, walking it down the assembly line the last few days. He drove it out of the factory gates, and still owns it.

    Based on the testimony of a factory worker who waited for supplies, and a new owner who waited for supplies, interviewed separately to the same conclusion, I put it in the book.
     
  15. Olivier NAMECHE

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    Yes ""logistical"" issues for mechanical field... not linked to Financial troubles during Ferruccio's era as it was evasively suggested in between lines earlier...

    So, again, I confirm Bertone was supplying the car complete - including interior, non including the mechanical fields... and this without providing the curriculum of all my witnesses who became friends and made this Lamborghini history happened...
     
  16. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Let me spell this out for you in simple English without mincing words and by being less diplomatic than I was in my book:

    Both Messrs Zampolli and Kadoorie made it clear that Lamborghini had not paid their bills to certain suppliers. That was their testimony. Period. To the extent that you are "friends" with certain people does not negate the testimony of the aforementioned. I hope this clears up my position. I understand that you are entitled to yours.
     
  17. Olivier NAMECHE

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    OK for your position, so I made it gently clear to the audience, who are "my friends" :

    Paolo Stanzani - Ingeneer - started to work in 1963 - Director from 1968 up to 1974
    Gianpaolo Dallara - Chief Ingeneer - started to work in 1963 up to 1968
    Ubaldo Sgarzi - started to work in 1962 up to nineties
    Ingrid Pussich - started to work in 1968 up retirement in 2006
    Mallossi - Head of production - started to work in 1964
    my list is not limited as I have also interviewed 63 people who worked for Lamborghini SpA for a total of 97 people overall...

    There is a difference between the angle of your witnesses, and crossing facts with people which were leading the factory instead of being at a secondary level like yours with a limited view of the whole factory... also to point that I asked to "my friends" the same questions and they didn't have a concertation prior to answer me...

    Again, you have no proof to state that Automobili SpA had debts during Ferruccio Lamborghini 's ownership !

    To remind, all started with your assertion concerning the supply of interior components... that I explained you they were supplied to Bertone and not to Lamborghini...
     
  18. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Correct.

    All I have is the testimony of Ing. Claudio Zampolli who worked as an engineer within Automobili Lamborghini SpA, corroborated by Sir Michael Kadoorie, an independent person who bought a new Miura.

    I believe them.
     
  19. cnpapa24

    cnpapa24 F1 Rookie

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    There goes the restoration thread! Lol
     
  20. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    It'll be back on track once the pendatics are done with.
     
  21. PSk

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    It amazes me that these cars are never driven. 10 years of ownership for only 5000 miles ... sad IMO.

    Pete
     
  22. urraco

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  23. Ellagirl

    Ellagirl F1 Rookie

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    Huge loss, i follow moto gp, although Nicky was competing in superbike, it is imho the most exiting motor sport at this point, beats f1 by miles, Nicky ,was one of the most talented riders ever, Rip Nicky
     
  24. omgjon

    omgjon F1 Rookie
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    All I wanted to do was post a few photos of the most beautiful car in the world coming together. I think I'll stay in the Dino section.
     
  25. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Tough section Jon, belive me, but the best remedy is to keep posting those images and not let those who seek to derail a thread succeed in doing so.
     

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