Clearly Jim is seriously into this genre of car! Congrats! The questions is..... How can a collection of top level sports prototype racers from the late 1960s be complete without the king daddy of them all? Porsche 917K Tell me there is one in your future Jim! Terry
Hey Eric is right. I really Love driving them on the street and a 917 wouldn't be legal. You're right about it being a great one. I esp. like the "Hippy" car.
Thanks Paul, I might have the wrong magazine ... but I still have it (read it again only 2 nights ago) so I'll scan it for others to read! Pete
The 1935 Mille Miglia winning Scuderia Ferrari Alfa Romeo Tipo B WOULD be street legal and also another "P3"....if it ever came up for sale...
Wax, How come in the second photo the car is referred to as a P3/4? ... my understanding is that #0846 was unique and the only P3/4 and 0854 is a 412P. Anyway regarding the hump. The hump would be required for the central feeding carbs on the 412 engine. #0846 would need completely different shaped rear deak as it is fuel injected between the cams ... Now ofcourse when #0846 was a humble P3 she would also have had a carbed engine. Thus it is still possible that the rear deck is one of #0846's originals (as a P3). Ofcourse not the one that she wore at Le Mans ... cause unless the hump has been changed, it is all wrong for the P4 engine. You guys might already have discussed this ... but I'm busy , thus only dropping in when I can sneak some time. And Amenasce, Amen. Pete
My understanding: 412P = P 3/4 Factory name = 412P "Street" name = P 3/4 It was the interim model between P3 and P4. As such, the heirarchy runs: P3, P 3/4 (412P), P4 0844, 0846 and 0848 were built as P3 for '66 - were converted to P3/4 for '67. All three P3's were Fuel Injected, with 2 valves per cylinder. ZF Tranny. 0850 and 0854 were built as P3/4 (412P) for '67 - they were never a P3. P3/4 (412P) had Weber Carbs, with 3 valves per cylinder. 0856, 0858, 0860 were built as P4 for '67. All three P4 had Weber Carbs, with 3 valves per cylinder. Of all the above, some, but not all of these 4.0 engines were extended to 4.2. The P4's did not use ZF Trannies. ___ Nutshell for nutters, huh?
No. Simplifying for the sake of clarity (and going on memory alone): For the 1967 season, the factory upgraded from 330 P3s to 330 P4s and built 5 new cars. The customer versions continued to use carburettors and were branded "412 Ps," while the factory cars used Lucas fuel injection and were called "330 P4s." These new cars were: 412 Ps: 0850 and 0854 330 P4s: 0856, 0858 and 0860 At the same time, they modified three of the 330 P3s, one to P4 specs for use by the Scuderia (and labeled "330 P3/4") and two to 412 P specs to go to customers. These cars were: 0844 and 0848 to 412 P specs 0846 to 330 P4 specs Now, as you've guessed there are other details differentiating the cars mentioned above such as valves/cylinder, etc., but I think this simplified explanation will make it clearer. Again, this is just off the top of my head, so please don't flame me if I mixed something up.
Thus bodywise (ignoring minor changes for engine differences): A 412P (which #0854 is) = P4. This is great (and might explain why I cannot tell the difference between a P3 and P4 ... I've been looking at 412P's versus P4's!!) as I have been morning that we will never see a P4 Coupe again once #0846 returns to the more practical (but not as pure looking IMO) spider. Effectively once Jim as turned #0854 back into a coupe we will have 95% of the beautiful P4 coupe body shape to lust after again, just in 412P form. BTW: I assume also that #0844 and #0848 (the other 2 converted P3 cars) are still surviving and chassis tagged ... Pete All is right with the world ... The other interesting thing, which I am sure Jim has already thought about, is he will have a 100% Ferrari built P4 spec chassis to compare to his P3 converted to P4 spec chassis ... in his own workshop. Sure makes things easier
Pete It does get a bit tricky and at one time everyone,including Chris Amon/David Clarke, Doug Nye, Me, Paul S. and that sign you referred to have gotten something a little wrong. The cool thing to me is that because of FCHAT discussion over many years we've all figured out a thing or two. IMO a wonderful thing has transpired. 0846, 0850, and 0854 have P3 Chassis. P3 Chassis differ from P4 Chassis as delineated in my 100 pages. One P3 chassis was modified in several ways to accept a P4 engine and wheelbase which is 12mm shorter than a P3 wheel base. One unique chassis; 330 P 3/4 0846. The body differences between a P3 and P4 are subtle. The humped up coupe roof exit vents, the double upper nose inlets vs single central upper nose inlets. The rad exit panel, the P3's is humped due to different foot pedals. The tails, P4's are wider and shorter. P3 carb hump vs. P4 FI deck. On a P3 the bottom of the door lines up with the front side edge of the tail. On a P4 the front side edge of the tail is stepped up several inches. 0846 was and will be again, body wise unique. P3 upper nose inlet. P3 door bottom/front side edge of tail line up. P4 12mm shorter wider tail, P4 FI deck. I'm soon off to see my Duesey at Villa d'est. Best To All!!!!!!
(possibly Ferrari tranny - on car when first seen - unreliable - now on 0846 only) (no, P3/4 had 2 valves per cyl., same engine as P3 but with carbs.) (only the two P4 Can-Am 0858 & 0860 cars had the enlarged engine, and still have them) And both 0844 and 0848 were given Weber carbs during the body/suspension/wheels/gearbox update before being delivered in early 1967. The fuel-injection trumpets on the P3s in 1966 were shorter than the carb bellmouths, so the hump on the 1966 P3 was low, but under the rear window all the P3/4s had a big hump. Paul M
Wayne, If 412P 0850 and 0854 were actually built as ´original´ cars, built alongside three 330 P4´s 0856, 0858 and 0860, does that justify the believe that those 412P´s have much more in common chassiswise with the 330 P4 than the 330P3, or are actually identical -again chassiswise- to the 330 P4´s, only difference being the engine? Which would seem logical, since Ferrari would have no point in building 5 new cars, yet build an old P3-chassis for two of those new cars. In that case, 412P 0850 and 0854 would be quite different from 412P 0844 and 0848, which have in effect a P3 chassis.
0850 and 0854 were there to fore unbuilt up P3 Chassis that were first used by Ferrari to build them into 412 P's as described. They were never built up as P3's. Ferrari had the chassis laying around so they used them. When 0854 arrives I'll confirm all of this but I really suggest anyone interested in this read my 100 pages as it contains photo's of P3 and P4's chassis as well as the build sheets. 0846 remains the only P3 chassis that was modified by Ferrari to accept a P4 engine and change the wheel base by 12mm. Wayne perhaps you could re sticky the 0846 document in Rossa so people can find it.
Some sources say or imply that 0850 and 0854 chassis were built during 1966 as spares, but never used... The engine block and mounting lugs of the P3 are indeed totally different to the P4 - and as Jim found, only one car was built with the tubes of the engine-bay sited for a P3 engine and then new mouting points welded on. Paul M edit: Jim beat me to it! Here's a still from the movie 'Grand Prix', shot I believe in August 1966, of what appears to be a P3 frame at Maranello. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Check out this thread. In the wonderfull drawing that's being done you can see details of the P4 roof exit vents and the P4 door bottom vs stepped up front side bottom of tail. http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56385
Here are some scale drawings of P4's and 412P's drawn by my Swedish draftsman friend, Staffan, who sometimes posts to FerrariChat under 'P4 Staff'. While not quite 100% accurate (in a couple of small areas), they also show some of the details mentioned in Jim's post. One other difference that no-one has mentioned previously, which is quite noticeable (even in this reduced size) are the different shapes of rear window outlines of the two cars. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Very Nice as well! Rear window difference is interesting. Because P4 tail is a touch wider? Because of FI deck rear view mirror would now see more than carb hump?
Right on both counts, Jim ! In fact where Staffan's drawing of the P4 isn't quite correct, is that the rear window is a little too far up the tail - the distance between the top shut-line and the forward edge of the rear window should be slightly greater. I guess that the 412P's window was higher up the tail, and cut deeper into the bodywork to give the driver some semblance of rear-view vision ! Had an interesting, and very lengthy phone call with David Piper this afternoon. It's amazing the details about #0854 that he can recall. Couple of interesting points that came out .... #0854 was all but burned-out at the East London 500Km's race in South Africa, on the 4th January, '69. He was racing closely alongside Paul Hawkins. The two cars 'got together', and somehow managed to rupture one of #0854's fuel tanks. Petrol got onto the rear tyres, and 'Pipes' spun out again, but he regained the track. Before he realised what was happening, #0854 caught fire. Because the fire tender took the long way round the track, the car was well ablaze by the time the marshalls arrived on the scene. The (then green - BP sponsored) fibreglass bodywork was completely burned, and even the carbs melted. The car needed a full rebuild when he got it back to England. Hence the delay of several months, before the car raced again at the Norisring in July '69 - and the rather 'lashed-up' bodywork the car appeared to be carrying in that race (see photo in my previous post #123). Something else that DP remembered was that the fibreglass tail on the car that you bought from him in 2000 (now hanging on your workshop wall) was moulded from #0854's original berlinetta tail (that you now also own), and then the window area was cut away to produce the 'basket-handle'. That is why you can see the rivet heads moulded in that tail. If you look very closely on the rear corner of it, you may also see the remains of the impression of the #9 roundel (or upside down #6 as David put it), where it may not have been flatted out completely before the tail clip was painted ! So here's a thought .... If that fibreglass tail came off your P4 (and was moulded from #0854's original berlinetta tail), and neither car has had the rear bodywork hinge mounts moved - then #0854's later aluminium spyder tail should fit straight onto your P4's roll hoop. The tail section itself may need just a little widening though .... More to come - but I'll wait till you get back from Villa d'Este before posting.
Jim, I don't have anything constructive (or destructive) to interject on this thread but wanted to take a moment to congratulate you on getting this car and to say thanx for working to preserve this stuff. I look forward to seeing the pictures as work progresses and hope to see some of your toys in person someday Chelle
