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Discussion in 'LamborghiniChat.com' started by Peter K., Feb 17, 2012.
Roy, honestly, I had no problem with you regarding the car, then or now.
A continued childish attempt at salvaging your erroneous reputation.
The thread is there for all to see:
Thank you Rich.
There are MANY people who use my services who read but don't post so I appreciate it when the truth is shared.
As for moving on, I'm perfectly fine if Josh wishes to continue to show the world who he truly is.
All Josh has accomplished is to show himself up for the malicious liar that he is.
Erroneous reputation? You have zero reputation in the Lamborghini world, at least I have one! A solid, much-accomplished, well-established and well-respected one. You on the other hand? Not-so-much.
Please feel free to post the thread all you want, its been here for two years already and proven to be worth absolutely zero, it only a mirror-reflection which makes you look like a bitter cry-baby.
You think someone's going to read the thread and all-of-a-sudden conclude anything besides that fact that Josh is a malicious liar?
Both Joe and Roy serve a important role in delivering cars to this community.
They both have different styles but in the end you should always do due diligence when purchasing a valuable item like this. Not really a big deal, the arguing back-and-forth sure doesn't do us any good.
There is obviously a heated debate as to what is wrong and right, which models are more valuable than the other but in the end it's all what you want. Who cares what anyone else thinks.
We are talking about one of the most influential cars of all time and we all should be proud to be a part of this and leave the whining, complaining and insults behind.
Thanks Roy and Joe for helping dreams come true and as far as I'm concerned, neither of you has to prove anything to anyone.
Thanks for the kind words.
They looked like drunk posts. I didn't read the earlier pages, because I just got back in town & am catching up with things. Joe didn't come crying to me btw. Any further posts (by anyone) on the Josh/Joe topic will need to be addressed in your thread Lamborghinis not at auction. It's time to get back to the cars.
So before we go back on topic here is a few pictures I took on Bourbon Street 2 weeks ago on a sat evening.
Too bad I didn't know you were coming down to NOLA. Would have been nice to meet.
Did your ears itch? I thought about you when I was there. Lol.
Haha. My cars are an hour outside of the city, but would be happy to show you if you are here again.
Looking at these quotes from Joe from 5 years ago, I think this still holds true today for the Countach market. Understanding and valuing different Countach variants can be difficult for someone not well versed in the Countach and this alone can cause the market to be less prolific than say the F40 market or 288 GTO market where it is more cut and dry. As Countach owners and enthusiasts, we would all be doing potential buyers and enthusiasts (and ourselves) a service by providing clear information so that people have confidence in the market based on facts and not what someone wishes things to be. Only then will the Countach reach its true potential. While I consider myself more of a student of the market than a Professor, I do try to study it closely and see so many cars on the market incorrectly priced for today's market, often priced at the top end of the range which in reality is relevant only for highly original, well preserved cars and properly restored (nut and bolt) cars. This is not a slight on cars that don't fall in that description, but just a fact of the market.
Pat O' Brien's Irish Bar - Hurricane.
Café Du monde - beignets.
5 years seems like a lifetime ago and I had forgotten all about those posts, but I think they are still relevant today.
The good news today is the complex Countach market is becoming better understood especially by those with the means to influence it.
Agree with that wholeheartedly...read this in the Road Scholars magazine last month, related to Porsche cars but actually it fits across all makes. Not pulling punches, but makes a good read.
I certainly wouldn't have bought my Countach without advice on provenance (thanks, Joe) and a thumbs up inspection on condition and originality from a world expert (thanks, VB).
I have no problem buying a car to restore and paying for the work. I quite like the process these days. But only if I get in at a price that reflects reality. I learned that the hard way some years ago. You won't easily be able to hide that "expensive restoration project" from buyers who are making use of the great resources that exist and are doing their homework.
My Two Cents Worth - Road Scholars
"My Two Cents Worth
Written by Kevin Watts
All things Porsche have had an incredible seven-year run-up in prices, with some really great cars finally starting to level out and even drop in price. Weve seen this in the auctions during the first quarter of 2017. There are many reasons causing this so lets try to sort this out.
The first reason cars are hitting the market is obvious: Panic! The sky is falling!
Twiddle Dee and Twiddle Dumb bought cars they didnt love strictly for the purpose of making money because they spent too much time listening to all the blog experts out there. Oops! Bad idea!
Second, they bought average cars.
Every price guide is based on what? Average cars! An average car is up-to-date in service year-after-year, and it has tires less than six years old. In the collector car world in all appearances, a car like this looks exceptionally nice upon inspection.
A great car is a car that has been shown exceptional care, it has low mileage, and its life is documented. Or it has undergone a professional (not you and Billy Bob) restoration with plenty of documentation both on its history and restoration. A professional restoration is not done at your local service shop, its done by a specialty restoration shop. There is a big, big difference; its called details!
Third, the trolls that inhabit message boards are not experts. They just think and act like them. And way too many buyers are listening to the wrong guys! Brokers have no skin in the game, no money, little time, and usually slim knowledge of the actual market. The first five-digit estimate ($$) from the local service shop usually opens the buyers eyes to what they really acquired, but its too late.
Simply stated: Because you worked on these cars or sold these cars, drove these cars, raced these cars, and read every book on these cars 30 years ago does not make you an expert today.
Whats happening in the market today is a separation of the men and the boys. The top tier true collector cars such as the 1998 911 GT1 shown above are still gaining in value while 90% cars are dropping. The top tier market has an entry price much higher than ever imagined just a decade ago and it is for only the rarest and most desirable cars. The 918 buyers have taken notice and only want the rarest, best, and lowest mileage cars to invest in. The key word is invest!
When you buy the best, you notice that the market does not fluctuate much.
Plenty of collectors want the best, few want the others? Where are you in this equation?
This is just my 2 cents worth."
I know Kevin, and he makes some great points, most of which I agree with, especially the proliferation of trolls and internet experts.
I also agree with the proliferation of poor work bestowed upon many cars, all still wanting top dollar.
On a personal note, I don't agree that all brokers or consultants have no skin in the game, no money, little time, and usually slim knowledge of the actual market, because I can think of at least 2 of us where the opposite is true, but, will concede that Kevin is right for the most part.
I was smiling reading his piece, but then I started laughing outright when I got to "What’s happening in the market today is a separation of the men and the boys".
Ain't that the truth!
Here's my quote for the Easter weekend:
Up on Mount Everest where the air is thin, sometimes you need oxygen to see clearly.
I thought I'd share where I think numbers are today based on private sales I am aware of, what I've seen trade at auction, and older sales adjusted for today's market. My numbers are based on typical cars without one off colors, unique provenance, etc so as not to confuse potential sellers / buyers with non-comparable sales. I've based my range from 3- condition, eventually due for restoration but useable today to 1 condition, well preserved, highly original cars and first class nut and bolt restoration. I don't expect a delivery mile / sub 1,000 mile car to fit within my range, nor would a basket case, so perhaps a tighter and more relevant/practical range for the users of this forum. While we know there will be cars like the green S3, the copper delivery mile S1, and Joe's Ex-Mimram car that can leave these numbers in the dust, I have left those out of the equation, which I think is the major difference between my numbers and Joe's. I would also expect the majority of cars to trade between 75-85% of the top figure. As I said previously, I am a student of the market and not a Professor so I look forward to feedback, but if I were a buyer or seller of the variants below, I'd be comfortable in this range:
LP400 - $750,000 to $1,100,000
LP400S S1 - $450,000 to $700,000
LP400S S2 - $400,000 to $600,000
LP400S S3 - $350,000 to $550,000
LP500S - $300,000 to $500,000
LP500QV FI - $175,000 to $350,000
LP500QV DD - $400,000 to $600,000
ANNIVESARIO - $175,000 to $350,000
Thought you'd like it, Joe. Made me laugh too. I can just hear him saying it...
And I am sure he doesn't mean it to apply to everyone...
He suggests, and I agree, that we have to watch out for the that "superiority bias" that leads to 80% of drivers believing their pedalling abilities are above average on the road. Apply this to valuing cars and, no doubt, 80% of owners, sellers and pundits think their cars and opinions are of above average value too.
They can't all be right.
Keep the oxygen coming...
FWIW, in support of your QV DD range, I know of three sales (RHD) in the last year on which I am able to provide useful info on the traded price and condition of the cars.
Two were structurally sound, useable cars in standard colours, one a 3- as you describe it, one a 3+. Both traded below $400k at todays FX rates. However, at last May's GBP/USD rates, they would have fit in with your numbers, in the $400/450 area.
I won't comment on the condition of the third car, since I own it. But I will say it was also within your price range and I am very happy with it.
The 15/20% move in FX after Brexit has not been reclaimed by UK based cars; even a very good one would probably struggle to make the upper half of your range in $ today. On a relative basis, they seem inexpensive.
Here are two other cars that have been for sale in the UK of late...being offered in the $400/$500 range. The Simon Furlonger car has recently disappeared from their website, so has either sold or been returned to its owner.
It will be interesting to see whether you get more pushback on your numbers from owners or would-be buyers...
In all fairness. Fuelies in the Us (where most are) sell very quick in low 200$. Wich should give it a fair 225 low nbr. On the high side a black black bumper car 2 k miles sold at 400 right now. Wich should give a high nmbr of 400. Imho. If a fulie in perfect restored cond (joes car) in a desireble color combo. Light interior. It would bring more than the ( vorst color combo)black black bumper car. For now. Speculation. Anni cars have been bid to 175. But are the sellers letting go? Anyway. Fair is fair.
Thanks for the info. I find it is always difficult to compare values in the UK to the U.S. or Europe, both pre and post Brexit, especially for RHD cars.
That said, I have seen some opportunities there post Brexit that people in the U.S. have capitalized on.
You also bring up another variable, which is cars with strakes and how they impact value.
All the ranges listed in the past several pages are very wide, so they are confusing to potential new to the market buyers.
It would be helpful if some of the knowledgeable people would break these down by condition ratings (maybe 1-3 would be enough). For example, what would a $175k car look like mechanically and appearance? Do not remember seeing anything like this recently.
Generally speaking if you used my 85% of high value as the higher end for a strong condition 2 car and 75% of high value as the higher end for a strong condition 3 car, I don't think it would be too far off. Adjust up and down from there for condition, originality, mechanical needs, history, books, tools, etc.
A few other tweaks for discussion:
Later S1 with Jaeger gauges deduct 5%
QV Downdraft with skirts deduct 10%
QV Fuelie with Euro conversion (removed skirts / bumpers) add 10%
You may be right. Perhaps $200k is the correct low end of the range to keep it in line with where I've valued the other variants. I still think $350k is the high end that I'd be comfortable with based on what I've seen. That sale may fall more in line with a delivery mile car outlier.
Well, somebody ,acc to Joe,forked up 400k on a fuelie, like it ,or not, also,a not desireable one,reg colors and stash, add your suggested 10% to that nmbr on a non bumper car,and your high nmbr should be(acc to nobody but your respectfully self)440$k all this mumbo jumbo,is offcourse ,nothing but wind bagging until a car actually sells at this nmbr ,that said,The bumper car did get400$k . And fits inn to your one of 3 categories
To be fair, there are actual sales of almost every variant here that are above my high end range but one sale does not a new benchmark make. My goal is to establish a realistic set of values for owners and potential buyers to use for buying / selling. I am not here to pump values, the Countach will find its own way in the long run.
Ok. Got it.
What the Heck?s Going On with Classic Cars? | Wolf Street
For reference, my mate in Australia just paid AU$900k for an absolutely mint, perfectly maintained, nothing to spend, 1 owner 1985 QV5000. Red/black, 33,000km, all books, receipts and even memorabilia from when the car was delivered new. He's been looking for a couple of years, rejecting much cheaper cars that were in much worse shape, then didn't think twice on spending the money on this one.
The old adage "Buy the best one you can find" will serve you well both short and long term.
Thanks for the data point. So $685k US?
Correct! Unfortunately most people are not willing to listen.
Yes. Keep in mind though that this car has original paint, interior and so on, yet it looks like it has just come out of the factory. No paint craze, scratches or chips. No scratches, shrinkage or rips in the leather, etc.
There are a handful of Downdrafts just like that with even less miles.
Here is the Million $ question, would a car in this condition/miles and so on,be worth more than a perfectley restored car, i am talking total gearbox dissasembley, gears checked ,shot peened, same with engine casings ,crank ,rods, basicly a "new" Countach iloabw ,100% taken down to Atoms,and back. Again, wich would be the more valuable?
Depends who's done the work. For me, if the factory did the resto, I'd choose that car. If the resto was done by anyone else, I'd choose the original car.
the most expensive would be a 100% original interior and body car like this WITH a fresh engine restoration
that is the top imo
I can go along with that but I can go along with full restoration also
full restoration is also great IF done well
but still...they are original only once and you can restore any car to the top, so all original is still the most value imo
IMO the best sort of cars is a "as original as possible" car, with a first owner who keeped all papers, invoices,covers and tools. Also the owner must have an eye for the detail and maintained the car as original as possible. Thats the top imo, if the engine is freshly restored by a known specialist is a plus point, of course!
Not to take anything away from original cars which are very special if well-preserved, but, Countachs, even under the Mimran era from 1981 to 1987, could have used a little more time & effort in the build phase, so essentially you get a car that is somewhat fragile by today's standards. Restoring a car thoroughly produces a car that will last more generations than the original one can and is more useable, simply because today's methods & materials are simply better than those of 30 years ago and result in a better product.
Indeed, each to their own and its understandable that the "factory" association is important for some.
That said, the Ferrari, Porsche and now the Lamborghini factories all offer restorations, and in each instance, I can think of entities that can perform restorations at least as well as those the factory is producing.
I have personally seen restorations done by the same workers that comprise today's Polo Storico, and whilst they are very good, IMHO, Dugan Enterprises - Home is one entity that can do a restoration at least as well if not better.
There may be others.
Interestingly I was chatting to a well known and respected chap about this very subject, I. e Polo Storico and their restoration work. He said . . . if they could not build them right 30 years ago, what makes you think they can rebuild right today? I did laugh.
There are advantages in using the factory. Part supplies and access to lots of engineering. But I echo Joe in that there are people / companies out there who can do it just as well if not better.
Sounds like a very special car. Congrats to your mate. Can I ask which side the steering wheel is on? Still wrestling with that issue of RHD/LHD valuations...
FWIW, when we restored our car, part supplies were no problem, we never got anything from the factory, we sourced it all through independent suppliers.
Also given that the restoration shop I used are essentially vintage race-car engine builders at their core, access to engineering was no issue either.
Our restoration was more of a bespoke deal, where I was allowed to get involved and essentially be part of the team, following it along and seeing it progress through every stage, much of the outcome the result of my personal input.
On the other hand, the factory restorations done by Ferrari, Porsche and now Lamborghini are more of a menu-selection/hands-off thing where you drop off your car and see it when its completed 1.5 years later.
Certainly, there are advantages in using the factory if you want the cachet of the 'factory' restoration, but certain independent specialists who do work to an extremely high standard may be better-suited to carrying out work to exacting specifications, if that's what you want.