Official Countach Value Thread

i disagree on anniversario carbed car to be set for best appreciaton VS 5000S and S3

the anniversario., even in DD form, has lost something in term of design (and look and rarity are vital in classic cars value) market already reflects it

 

nice S2
but it is in Swiss, so an italian buyer has to pay 30% over the price in VAT
it is not all original for what i remember

 

Sorry countachqv, thanks for your comment but i do not agree with you, i think its okay to put other wheels on a car you own, even if you are planning to sell it, i am sure when it comes to a deal with a serious buyer a guy like Roy will tell these kind of details. I seen Roy's website and i think he can't afford to have a bad name in the Lamborghiniworld just for a few extra dollars for this car. Anyway, i am not an expert but this is the way I see it. For Roy, have fun with the car!

 

+1

 

That is an interesting debate. My rationales were that :
1. The S3 has the most restricted power of all countach and lost all that makes the S1 and S2.
2. The 500S sidedraft is inferior to the DD technology. i saw many 500S with more issues than the DD.
3. the Anniv DD has a 4 valves with most power and is the best build echelon of these 3 variants.

The issue, the anniv look is probably why you think that DD variant will remain inferior to the other 2 and may be the numbers of car builds?

Input from more euro people would be great. From Japan too. Japanese look at these car so differently than we do.

 

Peter, as this is the value thread, what realistic price would you put on the car you own if you didn't own it and had to buy it? What would be the price of the car from Roy if it is in perfect condition with all 8 rims?

Marcus

 

WHATS going on with the colour, i don't get it, is this a non factory colour? ?

 

DISCLAIMER: The following is the opinion and speculation of a semi-educated, sometimes overly enthusiastic dreamer, and should be taken as nothing more than this.

The subject of LP400 Modificatos, that is LP400 cars converted to Wolf-look, S-look, or even full S-spec conversions, is one I've long thought about. This is the most difficult territory for such a discussion, similar to a discussion of the Miura SVJ, with the cars as rare as hen's teeth and coming up for sale so infrequently.

There are factory converted cars and privately converted cars, with what should be a large difference in value between the two species. As we'll see in a moment, things just get more confusing from there.

Adding even more variables to the mix comes when one understands that the motivations of potential buyers of such cars will be driven differently than buyers of any other Countach variant. A buyer may desire a specific example, driving up the value. Others may be looking to rescue a privately modified car and return it to LP400 configuration.

IMO, any discussion needs to start by setting aside the Walter Wolf LP400cars, 0148 and 0202, at least at first. These two cars are unique to themselves, due to the fact that the modifications performed by Dallara eventually became the basis of the factory's development of the LP400S.

I believe that 0148 and 0202 exist as the most valuable Countach examples, outside of the green museo car, which now exists as a priceless artifact of history. If they haven't yet followed the Miura SV and SVJ into seven-figure territory, I'd be surprised. IMO, 0148, 0202 and Wolf's final Countach 1002 (the first official LP400S build initiated by the factory) should at least command a value on par with The Shah's SVJ, 4934. One thing is for sure, the values of these cars, or just the perceived values, will drive the market in other LP400 Modificatos.

Returning to that discussion of other LP400 modificatos, we enter a dimension of opinion and speculation. This is simply because they just don't come up for sale often enough and there are simply too many configurations to deal with. So opinion and speculation it is.

I would put forward the following pecking order:

Category 1. Factory Modified LP400 into "Wolf-style/proto 400S/round spats".

Category 2. Factory Modified LP400 into production-spec LP400S, Periscopa roof intact.

Category 3. Factory Modified LP400 into production-spec LP400S, Periscopa roof removed.

Category 4. Privateer Modified LP400 into ""Wolf-style/proto 400S/round spats".

Category 5. Privateer Modified LP400 into production-spec LP400S, Periscopa roof intact.

Category 6. Privateer Modified LP400 into production-spec LP400S, Periscopa roof removed.

One could be forgiven for assuming that the factory modified categories would not be restoration candidates, due to their status as "official" conversions, something that cannot be assumed for the remaining categories. This is where the difficulty really comes to roost in this discussion, as restoration cost now becomes an element of any buyers choices.

So now we see just how assigning values to these cars, without comparable sale prices, is next to impossible. That said, it may look something like this.

Category 1 should fall somewhere between S1 money at the bottom and LP400 money at the top. Category 2 cars should see values slightly lower, but still at the top or above the S1 money. Category 3 comes right into S1 value territory.

The privateer categories are not so blessed. Examples with the Periscopa roof intact are going to lead the way, simply because the provenance of the car will include the car having retained its original roof its entire life. This is regardless of whether or not any buyer actually wishes to perform a restoration to LP400 spec.

I would go as far as to opine that privately modified cars with the Periscopa roof should command 20% to 30% more money than those with filled in roofs.

If there is anything about all of these cars that we should hope to be sure of, it is that potential buyers would educate themselves about what exactly it is they are looking at. It is then, and only then that we can arrive at the true values these cars can command.


Edit: After 5 years and 5000 posts, I'd like to thank everyone here, especially Joe, Tony, Brian (NSXER), Emilio, Peter, 2aftercannonball, George Evans, Gary Bobeleff, Roy, and Mr. Anderson. You have shared your cars and your knowledge, and my Countach enthusiasm is much deeper for it. I am so very grateful for everything you have given me. Of course, a very special thanks for Rob Lay and the moderators, for giving us the a place to play.

.

 

Do you mean the Lamborghini factory?

 

you have a point here, my friend
value is interesting but i find the countach tread more interesting

 

I think you hit the nail right on the head. I am not insulted or upset at all, AND I appreciate the comments of the value and trust I have built up.

This car, is not for sale, nor will it be marketed for sale (at this time at least) it is a car that I want to play with and enjoy, for at least this up coming driving season. When I do put it up for sale, the correct wheels that it was born with will be placed back on the car and advertsised correctely as a S2 car. I have no intention at this time of doing any further "correct restoration" work to it, i.e. paint, interior, spark plug wires etc etc..I would leave that up to the next owner how far and what they want to do. NOW, of course with all things, nothing is set in stone...maybe I drive all summer, fall in love with it, cant part with it and do a restoration myself..only time decides those things.

I do intend, no matter what to hold onto the Bravo wheels, I just dont see any reason to part with them..maybe one day I get lucky and score a series one car that needs them. Maybe I am turning into a "old rumage keep everything man" LOL..but dont need the money and the minute I part with them, as luck would have it, I will need them.

But it does also open up another line of value on these cars...

Is it worth more or less or the same as a car that has not had a restoration? After all they are only Orginal once as so many say..? Also at what point is work done to a car called restoration..or maintance..or returning to birth livery?

As I said prior, I put new tires on the S2 with S1 wheels, easy change back, that to me is for owner preference, no harm or faul to the car or its value IMO. I did quite a bit of mechanical maintance as I see it, filters, plugs, bushings...ect ect, but I did not return the engine bay to its birth perfection and correct color wires etc etc..as a matter of fact I did not even remove the few items that were added to it for livery into the USA at import time..which easly can be to make it a "euro" spec born car.

I did elect to have the front side markers returned to the Euro orginal style small sqaure ones as well as have the rear side marker USA installed lights removed. I did not want a re-spray of the whole car, so a very small amount of orgianl old style laquar paint was used just to blend these small areas back in with the orginal paint and orginal delivery of the car. So what do we call that, partial restoration? Return to correct appearnace? Does it hurt or help value? I dont have that answer...

I agree with you 100% that any and all cars, not just Lamborghini's should be described and fully disclosed all information on a vehicle to a possible buyer. Then it is their decision what to do, not to do and what the value is. At the end of the day, a value on ANY car is set at the time of sale...as the FINAL value is what the seller was willing to let it go for and the buyer was willing to pay for it.

In the spirit of this thread and to show I have new illusions about a car and it's value..on this car here, returned with the correct delivered wheels..I think it is worth $165K as it sits..I also think it's highest number would be determined by what in the future will have been done to it.

 

not exactly: some S2 cars has the same engine as S3 cars
S3 has same magnesium rims as S2
S3 interior is almost the same as S2

FI 5000S should be the less powerfull countach built

anniversarios are the heaviest countach built and honestly i see few and fewer fans of their design and their luxurious and well built interior

i would say a QV DD is a countach with great collector potential (countach S look with great power), 5000S and S3 may be a bit less
i do honestly believe anniverario look and its production numbers will keep its value down for a long time

 

We are all writing just personal opinions, here everyone is telling what he thinks and no more.

For example here in europe nobody wants an FI cars as they were created just for USA market so DD QV are not so special as they are in USA: we just have DD cars, it's the standard.
I do not like LP400, market says it costs 300+K Euro, but i do not want it: i'm not the market, but i prefer the S. Just my opinion, ok.
S1 S3, S3, 5000S: they all are old cars, a BMW M550 diesel is faster than all those Countach.
S1 and S2 are better looking, but yu cannot drive them on an open road in bad condition without damaging the front spoiler or low engine parts and if you are tall you do not fit very well in it: so why i have to pay so much money if i cannot drive it? Also this is just my opinion.

There are 631 QV and 658 25th: why they should cost more than a 5000S (just 321 cars) or than a 400S (just 237 cars)? also this is just my ipinion

I think 25th cars are not so good looking like other countach models so for me is correct that they cost less, and who cares of the better A/C: they all are old and obsolete cars... if you want a good a/c, power and reliability, take an M3 V8...

Every one has his own opinion: i think every S (400 and 5000) or QV deserves a lot of money if is in mint original condition and works perfectly: they are all the same cars with very low differences and it's very hard to distinguish each other. QV has a different engine, for me deserves less money than an S, as the original LP400 was sidedrafted and just two valves...

ciao

 

Such great stuff here..AGAIN thanks Peter for starting this thread..

As the saying goes "opionos are like A** *****" everyone has one..LOL

But, as far as the cars go, I can only speak of my experaince in them..yes I am sure one has better A/c, or ones has more interior room or better seats, one has DD and one is FI..on and on and on..

I can tell you when I drive the 400 periscopa ( now I am only 5'8") I love how it rapps around me, how I am lower the ground then any car I come up next to..well I mean pass, as when I drive that car it is like a little "go Kart" on steroids..it is fast, turns quick and zips in out of lanes around and past cars before they even saw me coming..I love it!

The next best most fun car I ever had was Steve Lefferts old 86 DD car, it was quick as hell as well, sounded just stunning. It is one of the cars I have always been dis-appointed that I let it go. So much so that I was happy when I was able to purchase Averys 88 1/2 DD in Blue. It went straight into the shop, should be done in about 2 weeks, with a 70K plus 100 point complete mechanical re-do to as if it was new and rolling off the aseembly line. There were no cosmetic changes to it, will wait to see it when I get it to see where I go with it ( I have yet to see the car, only pics). So I hope to have fun with it this season as well.

But that brings a new line of question, values etc etc

SInce the 86 and 88 1/2 DD cars are rare and hard to come by in the US..what is the comparative values...??

On one hand you have the 86 cars, a few handful that are here on US Soil via DOT and EPA as well as customs correct paperwork and caryy titles and plates. You then have the "grey" market cars that dont. And there are multiple shades of grey as well...

There are the Grey that have no plates, no title, no nothing..then the grey that have correct Custom import papers, were correctly titled and plated via a "for-giving" State such as Mine, Montant, Alaska, Maine to name a few...but carries no EPA papers..

What do we say about these cars...??

PS and the 88 1/2 DD I shall be collecting soon is not for sale nor will be marketed at this time as well..want to drive and have fun with it.

 

Ok, i'm just an owner but the countach design of the S low body is the best of all: better looking cars = higher prices and better sound= higher prices.

This is my personal ranking starting from the top : just beauty+sound, no more parameters

400S1
400S2
400S3-5000S
QV DD
400
88 1/2 DD
25th DD
5000S FI
QV FI
88 1/2 FI
25th FI

ciao

 

Not only that, but the lowbody cars also enjoy a very low production number, provenances that will include a famous name more often than most other variants, and not to mention The Cannonball Mystique, which may sound crazy, but I assure you many current and future potential owners, perhaps mostly Americans, have come to the Countach by way of the film, and once they begin to learn about these cars they come to understand that to get 'that look', only a lowbody will fill the bill.

 

Since we are just discussing values......Why is a late S1 worth a lot more than an early S2 when the ONLY difference is the wheels? If someone puts S1 wheels on an early S2, is the car worth that much more, or just the incremental value of the Bravo wheels, or ??? The factory just changed wheels (in what they thought was an upgrade!) to make the last S1 become the first S2. This is all hard to understand , and very intriguing!!!

 

Yes, me too. BTW I posted (to the Countach thread) a 1984 colour chart for Countach S and Jalpa where the period correct Blu Acapulco (still available in 1984) is shown. #1121006, basically an interesting car in spite of the insistent and periodically returning value statements of its owner, originally was painted Blu Acapulco.

 

yes, good points..where does it stop and start? I dont think I am an "expert" on the early cars as much as others are..I have the basic knowledge but all the little tiny things, like who owned it, when it was built, where is was first sold I dont have that kind of knowledge..I am sure that is all worth something to some and probably to real die hard collectors, as decribed earlier that have money to burn and just want the most known and documented perfect car to sit on a nice floor and look at it the rest of their lives...I classify myself in the other catagory, cool car, and I drive it.

I can understand a price difference (assuming all cars are of the same quailty etc etc) of an ealry S1 and later S1, mainly due to the guages, which are cool and I think the only other thing was the steering wheel on some of the very early cars..?

But I dont see a price difference on a later S1 and a S2 car, as they are, at least from what I know, (if not someone educate me) the exact same car all the way around with the exception of the Bravo wheels..

I honeslty dont know what a set of Bravo Orginal excellent condition wheels as these ones I put on the S2 are worth..I guess what some one is willing to pay for them. I can say I bought them at a price I thought was fair, but it came in a package with two other sets of wheels, tires, books, tools and some body parts for a 400 as well as a 400S and two wings for early cars..shipping from another country to me in the USA...so how do you break it out as to the value of JUST those Bravo wheels on a package Deal?

I am also intrested to hear more of what some say is or is not the safety and quailty of the Bravo wheel as compared to the next generation dish Wheel..some say the Bravo, cast as it was, leaks air and are brittle..have not seen any air loss with mine as of yet..? And when I bang my hand on them, they seem pretty sturdy LOL They were checked out and found to be true and round, sturdy and safe, prior to placing new tires on them, balance them and put them on the car.

Also, I have heard both ways (info again requested here) that the Bravo were built by a Company other then OZ and that the Dish wheels are ALL OZ made??

Now, can you also look at a S2, with Bravo wheels, fully disclosed, as what hapens in the Muscle car market all the time..they are described as "Clone" or "Tribute" cars..they are fully dis-closed ( well by reputable dealers at least) and a market is there for them. For people that one a car the looks the car of orginal, but dont want to pay the high dollar or just cant locate the real copy. The "Clone" is a in-between car...valued at more then a standard unit, but less then the real copy...can this be had or said for the exotic car market as well??

After all, let's bring some reality to this picture..as an example, if I placed my S2 on the greens in Monterrey next year, sporting the Bravo's..HOW many people WOULD truly KNOW it was not a S1..they would not..they could not tell by guages, same as late S1..the only way would be by the chasis or vin# to be displayed. So it appears it can attract the same reponse and appreciation for beauty as a S1 would..after all it is still a car, it's just a cool Lamborghini Countach car!

 

Roy,
I am glad you understand the idea of my mail. Not sure why some people get defensive when we talk about issues that really matter for a thread like this. Part of maturing the market is to have conversation about this kind of things without the intent of accusing anybody of anything.
Your statement above is exactly what I was getting at. If you have spare bravos it means somewhere an S1 is missing them. We are talking about a close to 1/2 million dollar car here. Same issue with the special Wolf wing. Someone wanted to part from it as I recall from a forum. This is a bad idea. Next you would see a QV with a wolf wing?
That kind of stuff may give the perception of lambo owners look like rice rocket tinkerers and that all Countaches have had been tinkered with.
I came across one car some years ago that was an injected converted as a downdraft. That bothers me when it is advertised as a DD. The value to me remains as an injected unless the factory did the work with proof and made sure all parts in the engine have been replaced to DD components. Even so, the VIN remains a US injected and will not fetch a born DD price. These things don’t help build confidence in the marketplace and may be that is why some people here are more comfortable with the Ferrari collector crowd. They don’t do that.
On the other hand I agree with you that federalization removal is a plus. Especially on the old car, not done by the factory. However, I am not sure I would remove federalization items for let say the 5000S injected that were done at the factory as I understand some cars were fitted there.
That said I wished I’ll have $165K idling on the side… Let us know the VINS of your car if you don’t mind. It seems these cars have been in hiding.

 

Bravos were made by Campagnolo.

Smooth dish wheels were made by Campagnolo for S2 & S3.

Ozetta took over after that.

 

Marcus, its all explained here:
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=163765

Take your time & read. Its worthwhile if you really do care about Countachs.

 

I like your thinking.

 

Mick:

I dont see it that way at all. Countach qv has a legitimate point, especially at the venue of this thread.

Also, how do you know Roy is not selling? He is a dealer, and has talked about selling it at some point. Same with me - if I own a car, even though I'm an enthusiast, the reality is that I'm a dealer, and it can be safely assumed that at some point if I'm offered the right number I will sell the car.

 

Well thought out, I like your thinking too.