Official Ferrari 275 GTB picture thread

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by roma1280, May 9, 2014.

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  1. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    #1101 miurasv, Jun 22, 2017
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    3765LM was entered/classed as Prototype/Experimental, not a GT car.
     
  2. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

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    Ferrari brought two special cars to the 1962 Vingt-Quatre heures du Mans.

    330 LM/TR 0808 was fastest qualifier and Overall winner.
    330 LM/GTO 3765 was 2nd fastest qualifier but was sand banked in the race and thus DNF.

    Because they ran 4-liter engines (as Steve points out) they were entered/classed as Prototype/Experimental.
    Interestingly, Motor Sport in their reporting of the race took pains to point out that they felt the class system was vague and confusing due to such classification.
    Nevertheless, Prototype/Experimental it was.

    Classification aside, as to the question I parsed from Furoni's post-
    The answer is Yes.
    3765 was a factory GTO entry for 1962 Le Mans 24 hours.
     
  3. nschots

    nschots Karting
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    #1103 nschots, Jun 22, 2017
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    Sorry for the off-topic.

    This is 0808 as of today, in Argentina:
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  4. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr F1 World Champ
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    Looks nice, in some years the car makes the tour of world.
     
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  5. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr F1 World Champ
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    #1105 Christian.Fr, Jun 22, 2017
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  6. 12659

    12659 Formula Junior

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    ok, that has got to be the best image of this long thread. Very elegant!
     
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  8. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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  9. 375+

    375+ F1 Rookie
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    " una berlinetta normale" indeed.
     
  10. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    Sorry to be a pedant but the answer is actually no. 3765 was a factory 330 LM entry, not a factory GTO entry for the 24 Hours of Le Mans in 1962.
     
  11. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

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    No.
    Steve, you need to re-read my post.

    0808 and 3765 are unique cars in Ferrari history.
    0808 and 3765 are both 330 LMs (NOT to be confused at all with LMBs which did not exist before 1963) and a TR and GTO, respectively.

    I do not wish to derail this thread further so I will not discuss this further, here, with you.
    If Dyke Ridgely or Paul P, who know the history and the car intimately want to correct me, fine. Other than that, I stand by my post.
    Cheers.
     
  12. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

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    +1
     
  13. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula Junior
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    Dave: I am almost sorry the subject has come up again, but I have been trying to correct this issue for so long, I will take another stab at it. In the factory records, a 330 GTO does NOT exist. All the factory records I have seen (including Build Sheets) always refer to the car as a 330 LM. This is also true of 4561SA. Unfortunately, the latest issue of Cavallino magazine has perpetuated this error in referring to 330 GTO's and claiming that 3673 was one of the cars (Marcel and I were just talking about this). The Nurburgring car and the Le Mans car were the SAME car!!! 3765 ran both races. The Build Sheets clearly show the engine being rebuilt after the Ring and the Axle ratio being changed for the longer Le Mans track. 3673 was a 400 SA with a SWB Berlinetta style body, nothing else.
     
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  15. Boudewijn

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  16. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

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    Dyke, thanks for your scholarship and wisdom, as always.

    I haven't seen Cavallino in quite awhile. I'm simply astonished (to the point of not understanding why) they would continue to repeat the error about 3673.
    The known (correct) history of what 3673 is and isn't, which you just stated, has appeared on Fchat for some years now.

    4561 does an excellent job of muddying the waters further. Built in 1963. Standard 538 chassis and 163 engine. GTO style body. Originally sold to Michel-Paul Cavalier as a road car, apparently no competition use until it was a couple of years old. My understanding is Cavallier was tall so he wanted a longer chassis. A boy-racer copy of 3765 for a friend of the factory? So then, the world's most valuable 400 Superamerica? :)
    I find it curious that the factory chose to refer to it as a 330 LM but I'm just an enthusiast and Enzo never promised logic. If the sheets say 330 LM, then that's what it is.

    Which brings us to 3765 and its SEFAC co-entrant for the 1962 LM 24 Hours, 0808.
    We start with the August 1962 Motor Sport Magazine which lists both cars as "330 LM".
    1962 Le Mans 24 Hours Results Sat 23 Jun | Motor Sport Magazine Database
    3765 has the unique 538/566 chassis. 0808 is built on the modified remains of chassis 0780.
    But, if one has a TR body and one a GTO body, how to tell them apart. :)

    Agreed on the Nurburgring and nice that it's part of the pedigree.

    Would the factory have referred to 3765 as a 330 LM in the build period pre-1962 Nurburgring? Again with that logic- wouldn't the LM designation (only) come into play when they were preparing it for the Le Mans race?

    This point is going to drive Marcel crazy- When the factory replaced 3765s 163 LM engine with the 3-liter block 0796, does this not make it the world's first 250 LM? :)
    I say this tongue-in-cheek.

    For me, 3765 'became' a 250 GTO (with a unique history) when the factory installed 0796. 3765 then continued to race in period as a 250 GTO, even winning the 1965 Sicilian hillclimb championship.

    Steve has said 3765 was a 330 LM at '62 Le Mans. That's certainly true. But it still begs the question, how can both 3765 and 0808 be SEFAC-entered 330 LMs and be completely different cars? Anyone who would see them at the race would say, 'That's a Testa Rossa and that's a GTO'. From appearances sake they'd be right. But this ignores the detail that they were prepared by the factory as a 2-car effort with one goal- overall victory in the race. Essential to that effort was the use of a 'hot' 4-liter engine in what would otherwise have been factory TR and GTO entries.

    I'm less interested in winning an argument with Steve than I am in posing questions that I hope will prompt further research into the (full) stories of the '62 LM entry of 0808 & 3765 and further scholarship on 3765 (and perhaps a little bit more on 4561).

    And with that, I will thank Steve and Dyke and stop hogging this wonderful 275 thread on something other than the subject at hand.
     
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  17. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

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    Thank you, Boudewijn.

    For me 3765 (and 0808) are the genesis of the 330 LM, both being born in spring of 1962.

    It is not until 1963 that we see 330 LM 4561, 330 LMBs 4381, 4453, 4619, & 4725, and for that matter 250 LMB/GTO 4713.

    The stories of all of which and their relationship to each other, I hope, will one day be fully explained in detail.

    Best Regards,
    Dave
     
  18. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula Junior
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    Dave: Don't you just love Ferrari's. It is all so "cut and dried" and so simple!!

    1. The Build Sheets for 3765 have handwritten on them "300 LM" (obviously an error, S/B 330). So the car was a 330 LM from day one. The factory entry papers for the Nurburgring also list the car as a 330 LM.

    2. According to the Build Sheets, 0808 is a 330LM/TRI.

    3. Ferrari usually identified their cars by the chassis type and name. It was the chassis that gave the car its identity. If you follow their logic (and they were much more logical than many believe) than the re-engined 3765 becomes a 330 LM with a 250 motor installed. the Tipo 539/566 chassis was not altered and so the identity of the car remains the same.

    4. Continuing to use the factory's logic, 4713 is a 250 GTO (a GTO chassis) with a different style body mounted. It could be any style, but the car remains a 250 GTO.
     
  19. miurasv

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    #1117 miurasv, Jun 23, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
    Chassis tipo of 330TR/LM (or 330TRI/LM) 0808 is 568. 0808 has independent rear suspension as opposed to a live rear axle on 3765. 5 speed gearbox on 330TR/LM 0808 with 4 speed on 330LM 3765 with the 4 litre tipo 163 engine.

    According to records/invoice from Vaccari 330TR/LM 0808 was built on a completely new chassis and NOT on the remains of 0780.
     
  20. Toronto308

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    Hola, Nick. I will be vacationing in Buenos Aires near the end of July. Can you please tell me where I can see this car, along with any other suggestions such as car museums, etc.?

    Gracias,
    Esteban
     
  21. nschots

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    Esteban,

    You have a PM.
     
  22. bigodino

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    #1121 bigodino, Jun 26, 2017
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  23. bertdeboer340

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    #1122 bertdeboer340, Jul 2, 2017
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  24. Marcel Massini

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    #1123 Marcel Massini, Jul 2, 2017
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  25. Marcel Massini

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  26. Christian.Fr

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    #1125 Christian.Fr, Aug 2, 2017
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