prices of Daytona Spyder "conversions" ??

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Parnelli, May 1, 2017.

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  1. Parnelli

    Parnelli Karting

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    What is the proper way to value the Daytona coupes that have been converted into convertibles? Are they worth slightly more than or slightly less than a regular Daytona coupe?
    I thought I read somewhere that "about 100" coupes were converted to Spyders. And that some were built using wrecked coupes. Is that correct?
    Who built the best conversions?

    Here's an example:

    1972 Ferrari Daytona For Sale - Full History and Massini Report, Borrani Wheels

    Thanks
     
  2. Edward 96GTS

    Edward 96GTS F1 Rookie

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    daytona coupe price minus cost to convert back into coupe form. the conversion is not recognized by factory so no classiche certification possible.
     
  3. davemqv

    davemqv F1 Rookie

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    From my research they're priced the same as coupes.

    On our side of the Atlantic anyway, Richard Straman's conversions seem to be the best, and probably most common conversions. Don't know about Europe or GB.
     
  4. davemqv

    davemqv F1 Rookie

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    Here's a nice conversion at Fantasy Junction that has had work done internally to make it match a factory spyder. $725k. Most coupes I see these days range between $675-$750 asking. So about the same.

    1972 Ferrari 365 GTB/4 Daytona Spyder Conversion
     
  5. Wheels1

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    #5 Wheels1, May 2, 2017
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    Being extra picky, the front inner wheel arches have been made in steel which is right but they look to rounded to me.

    Inside the trunk looks very odd, pic of the car for sale and pic of what it should be like, on a LHD Spyder. [ Forget this, I have just checked pic's of other genuine Spyders and a lot of them have the angled brace in the trunk ] ! It looks like both styles are correct.
    spyder.jpg
    14383%20Trunk.jpg
     
  6. tifoso2728

    tifoso2728 F1 Rookie
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    Has anyone ever taken one of these bastardizations and returned to a proper berlinetta?
     
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  8. Drive550PFB

    Drive550PFB F1 World Champ
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    I would buy this before I buy an Aperta. And, frankly, with the cost of the 575 SAs getting out of sight, I would buy this before a 575 SA.

    Having said that, I see prices for the 550 PFB and the 575 SA running over $500K, and there is a 550 PFB in San Francisco at $700K and two at Marshall Goodman for over $650K. I have not seen one trade at that price, and I have seen auction results in the $300s. I think the $300s is right for the 550 pFB and 575 SA.

    I have seen two Stramans and they are very nice.
     
  9. Parnelli

    Parnelli Karting

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    I take it that you are one of the enthusiasts that do not approve of these conversions :)
     
  10. 19633500GT

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    What about one that was sent back to Italy (from the US) for conversion? I'm unsure if the factory ever converted any Berlinetta's to Spyders. Does anyone know? The car I know of is in NY and quite nice.
     
  11. davemqv

    davemqv F1 Rookie

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    I think the research that went into your car probably wasn't equaled here ( your car is amazing), although it seems they did a pretty good job - I'd be very happy with it, after re-painting a different colour of course. ;)
     
  12. TTR

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    There are similar variations (and more) in Berlinettas too. I recall hearing there are/were at least 11 or 13 different fuel tanks (part numbers) made for Daytona and I'm not sure whether those include any for Competiziones.
    I've had three Berlinettas simultaneously in the shop with different OE trunk paneling arrangements and currently two, both US models built less than a year apart, but with different tanks, trunk panels, etc. along with numerous other chassis, coachwork and trim variations.
     
  13. Daytonafan

    Daytonafan Formula 3
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    Yes a few have the Competizione Daytona Fantasy Junction have was once made into a Spyder. It's probably only been in the last few years that it has remotely made financial sense.

    1971 Ferrari 365 GTB/4 Competizione
     
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  15. tifoso2728

    tifoso2728 F1 Rookie
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    Great. It's about time.
     
  16. 375+

    375+ F1 Rookie
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    It doesn't look quite right to me, someone got a bit creative with the restoration.
     
  17. davemqv

    davemqv F1 Rookie

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    #15 davemqv, May 4, 2017
    Last edited: May 4, 2017
    Technically speaking, aren't the factory spiders themselves actually conversions? I've read numerous times over the years that the 122 factory spiders started out as coupe shells and were converted at the factory by Scaglietti. Of course there were other differences beyond the bodywork between the GTS/4 and the coupe/post factory conversions... but still.

    Please correct me on that if I'm wrong.
     
  18. davemqv

    davemqv F1 Rookie

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    The other well known "converter" here in the states was Mike Sheehan. Blanked on his name the other day. Not sure if a Sheehan or a Straman is considered a "better conversion" across the board.
     
  19. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

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    Which may also be described as work having been done by European Auto Sales (Costa Mesa, CA), his company at the time.
     
  20. Wheels1

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    Spyder's were made at the factory as Spyder's from the start, NO coupes were made into Spyder's at the factory or Scaglietti other than maybe a pre production one.
     
  21. TTR

    TTR Formula 3
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    And to be more specific, but hopefully not terribly inaccurate, my understanding is that factory didn't really make any of the vintage era production cars.
    Bulk of the assembly and fabrication was "out-sourced" to coachbuilders like Scaglietti, Pininfarina, etc. while "the factory" only installed the running gear and perhaps some other mechanical components, but I could be wrong since I was never there to see all this in person.
     
  22. davemqv

    davemqv F1 Rookie

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    Yes, sorry. I did not mean finished cars were cut into spiders by the factory. What I have heard/read/thought was that unassembled coupe body parts were cut/modified into spyders BEFORE being put onto chassis/frame.

    So in other words, an unfitted coupe shell would get it's roof cut off and be modified into a spyder before it was assembled onto the chassis. Is that still wrong? They actually hammered out entirely different parts for the spyders from the get-go?
     
  23. davemqv

    davemqv F1 Rookie

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    yeah when I say "factory" in this case I mean the coachbuilders for this car - Scaglietti.
     
  24. TTR

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    #22 TTR, May 4, 2017
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    No, Spyders were made from scratch. Even their bare chassis were built with extra reinforcements and some of the space frame structural sections used stronger materials.

    Well, technicality even Berlinetta bodies were built from scratch with various semi-finished sections fitted and welded individually on to their respective chassis & space frame structures, hence a door, a hood or a entire front clip, etc from one car may not fit another without serious reconstructive fitting and trimming efforts. Not to mention, unless they've been subjected to severe reconstructive restoration and inadvertently made so, there's nothing symmetrical in their original coach work.
     
  25. davemqv

    davemqv F1 Rookie

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    Interesting. Thanks guys for the re-education!
     
  26. steve meltzer

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    #24 steve meltzer, May 5, 2017
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    Here's another conversion to which someone pointed me:

    NJB Automotive, Exceptional Ferrari Service and detailing in Ohio

    I guess that Edward96GTS's assertion that these cars are pretty much worthless ("coupe price - cost of reconverting to a Berlinetta") isn't true in this market, as they seem to trade/ask in the $700K range. He is correct that they can't be Classiche Certified, so they're no fun to own, nor drive. Therefore, in the AM i'm gonna crush my alloy-bodied, gorgeous conversion Spyder, #14047. steve
     
  27. Wheels1

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    #25 Wheels1, May 6, 2017
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    This is the sequence they made the Daytona's body's at Scaglietti.
    Chassis frame was first made on a jig. Then it was place in production line clam shell jig. Next some of the frame work was added but not all, the rear section of the roof frame was left off to facilitate the fitting of the fibre glass tub [ coupe] and bulkhead [ both Spyder and coupe]. Then the supporting frame work was finished. Lots of the under wings ancillaries were now added such as the heater control box and vent pipes before the front clip, Windscreen frame, sills rear clip, roof [ coupe] and lastly doors. These are just the main points, there were lots of smaller parts added at various points. I would say at a rough guess there were more than 100 differences between the Spyder and coupe, from the chassis to the springs, fuel tanks, door glass, etc, etc. Here is a photo from a French mag of a almost finished body, the fibre glass shown in pink.
    12037%20jig.jpg
     
  28. davemqv

    davemqv F1 Rookie

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    Thanks Grant!
     
  29. TTR

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    Thanks, Grant. I've seen that and one or two similar fixture/jig pictures before, perhaps on your restoration thread, but would love to know which magazine/issue that is so I could try to find a copy.
    Do you or anyone else know other similar Daytona coach work assembly pictures or photos taken at Scagliettis at the time ?
    I would love to find cause evidence to all the common asymmetrical discrepancies I hinted about before and been collecting supportive documentation for years. My research and reverse engineering analysis suggests they started during space frame assembly, before sheet metal installation.
     
  30. Wheels1

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    I have around 10/11 Timo.
    They were copies I bought from the Klemantaski collection at $65 each 10 years ago.

    I do not have the right to reproduce them before I get asked.

    http://www.klemcoll.com/image/69PC30A-14A.aspx?page=1 ask for other similar photos.

    If you want I can take a look for the French mag, but it will have to wait for a while, we are off on mini grand tour with the FOC to France, Switzerland then Italy for the start of the MM next week and I need to figure out how to fit my wife's stuff in the car, that's with the Owners club carrying a big bag for us!
     
  31. TTR

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    Thanks Grant.
    I'll look into Klemantaski archives. No hurry on the mag.
    Enjoy your tour, sounds like a great one. Are you riding modern (comfort) or vintage (style) ?
     
  32. ///Mike

    ///Mike F1 Veteran
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    May as well-- apparently it's worthless without a $four figure red book$. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
     
  33. Parnelli

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    So, what about the actual 'valuation question'?
     
  34. jnk

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    looks like the one at Fantasy Junction has sold. Asking price was 725000. I suspect it probably went for 650000-675000.
     
  35. davemqv

    davemqv F1 Rookie

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    The one at Autosport designs is listed at 675k. It was listed last year at $875...so prices are dropping at about the same rate as the coupes.
     
  36. bighitter2

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    #34 bighitter2, May 19, 2017
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
    At $675k Still over 5x what they were when i looked at 6 different ones in 1999...my how times change.chuck
     
  37. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #35 amenasce, May 19, 2017
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    and 2x from 5 years ago. This one was $350k,which was more than a coupe at the time and reason why we passed on it. Oh well.
    526266_10151445950220284_851854875_n.jpg
     
  38. SCantera

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    #36 SCantera, May 19, 2017
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    My Dad had this one converted by **** Straman back in 1980 [or so]. Euro version with plexi headlight. The car was bought in Vancouver shipped to CA for the conversion/refit/paint. When complete he and my Mom drove it from CA to DE through snow, sleet and everything else. As noted in the picture this car was for sale at the Rick Cole auction in Monterrey in August of 2016. I don't think it hit the reserve. I did have the pleasure of driving that car back in the 80s and 90s. Gorgeous it was.
    Screen Shot 2017-05-19 at 4.03.04 PM.jpg
     
  39. bighitter2

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    When i was looking for a Daytona coupe i was told for same money could buy a spyder conversion...ALL that i looked at were 10-20% more than a coupe depneding on condition..i have found that CONDITION is what determined the price...a few were pretty ratty cars and 2 i found were high quality,fresh with low mlies since restoration (nut and bolt) those were the cars that were priced 20% over a coupe..i bought one of them.still have it.
     

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