1. I have started the new week 1 FerrariChat Update poll, please vote... http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/ferrarichat-com-update-week-1-poll.560487/
  1. ross

    ross Two Time F1 World Champ
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    well given that he owns most of the cars on my own 'cars-to-own-before-i-die' list, he has just become god-like in my mind. HOLY **** this is an amazing collection. i wont tangle myself into the over/under resorted argument. these are just amazing cars ! hats off to the man with the taste, vision and wallet to accumulate these beauties.

    i guess all those polo shirts i bought in the 80's helped build this ;)
     
  2. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Ross my friend totally true but to state that someone should feel "shame" for having the opinion that these cars are overrestored is WOTT.
    Best
     
  3. msdesignltd

    msdesignltd F1 Veteran
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    Grow up!
    IMO overrestored means using platings, paints,hardware,parts and finishes that were not included when the car was shipped new...He knows concours,he has won enough of them. he is NOT overrestoring them.I am sure he has advisers so as to not make the cars worthless.






    ROTFLMAOUFM

    What does that mean?
     
  4. BigTex

    BigTex Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Mine were Izod......LOL!

    Both of them.........

    Big"That's not rust, it's patina"Tex
     
  5. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #55 Napolis, Feb 10, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Tex this Bud's 4 you
    Best
    330p4-67.jpg
     
  6. msdesignltd

    msdesignltd F1 Veteran
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    Jim ,Please no offense.never heard you flame up like that! Could it be this is the only man ever mentioned with more valuable cars than yours??????????

    When I say Shame, I think you read into it a little too hard.A bit too sensitively.
    My apologies, no bones to pick here!

    Michael
     
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  8. Bob Zambelli

    Bob Zambelli Formula 3
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    The 250 TRI that's in Mr. Lauren's collection - as far as I know, there were two built. One is owned by Mr. Sachs, the other by Mr. Bardinon. Aren't these the two cars that placed 1 & 2 at LeMans in 61?

    Did one of the two gentlemen mentioned above sell the car to Mr. Lauren?

    Answer me that and I'll tell a tale about the 250 pontoon fender TR!

    Bob Z.
     
  9. SefacHotRodder

    SefacHotRodder F1 World Champ

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    Aparently in a recent issue of architectural digest there was an article about him and his cars are visible in some pics. I'm tracking down a copy now...
     
  10. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Michael
    Nope. I think they're over restored. No more. No less. I think those who were there on the day have a different idea of what old race cars look like and how they should be restored. It would be interesting to hear what some who were as well have to say.
    Best

    How do you think the car in post 55 would do at a Concors?
     
  11. msdesignltd

    msdesignltd F1 Veteran
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    Now thats the side of concours most people dont understand.
    Concours does not mean perfection in a beauty contest. It means original finish and livery,whatever the age of condition....In that case if it was unmolested and proven original,it would pull a boner at 100 pts.
     
  12. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Bob
    The Bardinon car is now owned by JS. Now that one looks like a race car.
    In all fairness some Concours like Pebble for example are IMO starting to like cars like JS's more where I believe it won an award last year.
     
  13. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    I'd have to see them up close and personal, but from the photos they do look a little too perfect. But then I'd restore them like that too ... but the difference is (possibly*) I'd then run them hard and eventually the right level of patina would return.

    I must say I'd give my left (or right) testicle to own: FERRARI 250 LM 1965 #6321. Just bloody awesome.

    Pete
    * - I reserve the right to compare these cars with these photos in 5 years time, maybe RL would have worn them in by then too?
     
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  15. El Wayne

    El Wayne Global Moderator
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    Bob, you're right on about Peter Sachs and 0794TR, however, 0792TR here is the second car and Mr. Lauren has been its owner since the mid-1980s. The other car you're thinking of is 0808, the 1962 Le Mans-winning 330TRI/LM (one of one). 0808 was part of the Bardinon collection up until August of 2002 when Jim Spiro purchased the car at the RM Monterey Sports Car Auction.
     
  16. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran
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    In the modern era, anybody doing a restoration is torn between "original" and "restored". Most production automobiles would have "original rust" on their frames within a month or two after they rolled off the assembly line. The major auto makers didn't bother to utilize a tough grade of paint on their car frames, and even the mighty Ferrari probably didn't fare much better. In their day, who cared about what color the frame was? With two weeks of driving, it was probably "dirt" colored for the rest of its driving days. I looked at a brand new Camaro on the lot in 1983. The frame and associated suspension parts were already rusty. If one is restoring a valuable antique like a Ferrari, would you DELIBERATELY paint the frame with some Grade Z based paint that would start rusting within a few months, just because it would be "original"? I wouldn't. Come to think of it, one can't even buy original type nitrocellulose laquer body paint like was used back in the 1950s anymore, can you? And some of the nickel plating and cadmium plating processes are so tightly controled by EPA regulations that you would probably have a SWAT team at your door if you dared to replate a single car bumper in your back yard.
     
  17. BigTex

    BigTex Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Thanks, Napolis!

    I really DID roll on the floor, laughing, with that one!
    Good thing no one at work pays much attention to me......:rolleyes:

    I'm gonna file that post, thanks!
    I'll keep it right with the Shell Oil cutaway........


    ....and now back to the museum. Please speak in hushed tones and do NOT cross the velvet rope barrier or ..............

    OH MY GOD!!!!!!! Don't TOUCH THE CAR!
     
  18. BigTex

    BigTex Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Psk, those cars 'patina' days are over, man...

    Even worse, they'll never "stoplight" down Poydras, in New Orleans, either! ;)

    More's the pity..........
     
  19. SefacHotRodder

    SefacHotRodder F1 World Champ

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    C'mon guys. We all have different opinions. Let just get back to the topic of the original thread
     
  20. msdesignltd

    msdesignltd F1 Veteran
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    Quik Question, How does one contributor reach 10,000 posts and be listed as Non Subscribed! just curious.
     
  21. BigTex

    BigTex Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Architectural Digest?????? ;)

    Oh, no...........CARS!
     
  22. BigTex

    BigTex Six Time F1 World Champ
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    He lives under a bridge ..in a dome tent, with his Ferraris!

    Like that old SNL skit............"Get to know me!"

    You've seen that business card?
    "No phone, no money, no worries?"

    You guys in NYC have all the fun, I'm jus' down here brewin' the gasoline!
     
  23. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Rookie
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    There is no way that I will enter into an 'overrestored' argument because I believe that everyone is entitled to think what they wish when determining degrees of restoration. With that said the following link will be of particular interest to many:

    http://www.paulrussell.com/

    This is the restoration shop that has done many of Ralph Lauren's cars including 2 best of shows at Pebble Beach. There is a ton of information here including restoration case studies. At this level, restoration is part manual skill and part detective work.
     
  24. BigTex

    BigTex Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Not to 10K yet, although a computer error in my favor took it to 12,000+ one weekend. Rob scurried around behind the curtain and fixed it.

    Look, Ralph has done a good job preserving these cars as well as Trademarking all those wonderful Sherwin Williams paint colors.......no problem with him, at all.

    I happen to agree with the position that a competition Ferrari is only new once, if then, and the ownership history and experiences of the machinery are far more interesting that the presentation. This puts me in camp with those that hold similar views. A historic car loses all that when refinished to modern standards.

    If you want shiny, get a new grand piano.

    This polarization tends to infect most discussions on this board, you'd think we'd be a little more tolerant of differences of opinion. I could make two lists from memory. Some people use the cars, some people save the cars.

    Simple as that.
     
  25. BigTex

    BigTex Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Thanks for the link!
     
  26. mattymouse33

    mattymouse33 F1 Rookie

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    Looks like it certainly happened Mike!!!

    For what its worth, I'm aboard with you!

    regards,

    Matthew
     
  27. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #75 Napolis, Feb 10, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Arlie
    You can still buy nitrocellulose laquer. Eastwood and other's sell it. Trying to make it simple look at the photo below. Note the ding near my elbow. That ding was put there by Bruce McLaren when he threw down his helmet in 1967 after retreiving the tail which had blown off on the Mulsanne at 223mph. After Le Mans Ford repaired the damage to the tail as they then used the car for exibit at various autoshows. If you look carefully you can still see that repair. They didn't repair the dent. I didn't either. At the FFQC this old girl crusied at 165 for 40 minutes. Picked up a rock chip or two. IMO those chips are like Bruces dent. They should be kept from doing futher damage but a period correct repair is a lot different than many of these cars receive. It's like boobs. Natural ones aren't always perfect but at least they don't release toxic fumes when they burn.
    j652ax.jpg
     
  28. SefacHotRodder

    SefacHotRodder F1 World Champ

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    Great!
     
  29. tx246

    tx246 F1 Veteran
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    napolis,

    i have to say the comments about the boobs has to be the most hilarious part of this thread.
     
  30. dretceterini

    dretceterini F1 Veteran

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    I think that there were a lot of boobs in the auction tent at Barrett-Jackson...some made of silicone and some not..
     
  31. Schatten

    Schatten F1 World Champ
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    Hillarious Jim! Love the boob analogy as well!
     
  32. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    I think BigTex answers your question very well with the multiple post replies. Some of us have learnt that you can reply to multiple people in a single post, for example :D

    I disagree. Patina comes simply from not over maintaining a car. Simply drive and race and do not have a heart attack over every stone chip, scratch and oily residue/stain. After another 10 years of play ... restore the car again.

    It looks like these cars are restored on a weekly basis ;)

    Again horsefly, if RL did not constantly over clean the cars the frames would have dirt on them, etc. But I do believe that one should restore a car to how the manufacturer would like to have made it, and thus the best it should be. The thing is they should then use it as a car ... I know that many America muscle cars are restored painstakingly to just painting some parts with primer only and redoing the factory hand written part codes on diffs, etc. ... that is over doing it in my book ... but I cannot argue that it is not correct :).

    I'm still waiting for RL to challenge me to cut of one testicle for the LM ... either one, I don't care :D :D ... but I'm keeping the other one ;)
    Pete
     
  33. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran
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    I guess that it's all up to personal taste. I probably would have left the McLaren "damage". But I don't think that I would forgo using modern paint compounds and other technology to achieve longevity. Look at Pamela Anderson: Natural beauty with considerable technological enhancement. (lets not cloud the debate with the fact that I possess neither rare automobiles nor Pamela)
     
  34. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 Veteran

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    Just one?! C'mon, make it at least two! A guy in the UK cut off both because his football team won.

    I like to see a car left as much as possible untouched and only enhanced because certain parts are not lasting that long (i.e. the chassis and rust). If the paint was a 6/10 and he wanted a 12/10, he should've just left it as a 6. I rather drive the car more than look at it, even if the 250 GTO is the most beautiful car ever :)
     
  35. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ
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    They are phenomenal cars but Ive never seen Ralph & Ive spent A lot of time at various tracks. Ive never heard of him driving his cars on tracks either.

    Napolis also has an amazing collection & he knows what they are for :)
     
  36. Korr

    Korr F1 World Champ

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    Hey, I like that car in post #55.

    I like my cars just like I like my women.

    Old, dirty, rode hard and put away wet.
     
  37. trashidelek!

    trashidelek! Formula Junior

    Nov 18, 2004
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    I posted this request in Showroom also. Please excuse the duplication.

    I would very much like to have high res copies of the photos on the first page of this thread (Ralph Lauren cars), if you would be so kind. My email address is marchunter@msn.com. Thank you very much!!
     
  38. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie

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    no doubt about it, the race cars were workhorses and treated as such.

    One of my favorite passages of all time describing the feel and treatment these cars got when they were run in anger was by the great automotive writer, Ken W. Purdy. This following is an excerpt from his book "The Kings of the Road" and is about a practice session at Sebring - I believe 1956. Pardon the length, but I think everyone here will enjoy it.

    "Years ago I was looking at three cars in the Ferrari pits at Sebring. It had rained in the afternoon and the Florida sun, dropping to the rim of the great plain, shone red in the black pools of water on the circuit. There were only a few cars running in practice, howling separately in the distance, out of sight most of the time. The blood-red Ferrari cars would go a few laps as soon as the mechanics were finished with them. These were stark, open two-seaters. Their paint was flat and crude. The bucket seats were upholstered in wide-wale corduroy. Everything else in the cars except the wood steering wheels was bare unpainted metal, much of it roughly finished. Heavy welding seams joined the thin tubes of the frames. Shiny streaks here and there showed where oil had been mopped up. A man next to me turned, remembering the old pilots' gag: "You wouldn't send the kid up in THAT!" he said. A small, dark, red-eyed mechanic got into one of the cars. An ignition key looped in a piece of sisal wrapping twine stuck out of the dashboard. He leaned on it with the heel of his hand and a bare-metal clanging and clattering began. You wanted to move away before the thing exploded. It fired suddenly, all of a piece, and pumped out a gout of blue smoke that drifted low over the wet grass of the infield. The mechanic sat there with his foot in it for five minutes.

    There was somebody in each of the other cars, and they were running, too. Juan Manuel Fangio materialized, pear-shaped in a rain jacket. He looked sleepy, he looked bored, he looked indifferent, until one noticed the incessant flickering of his eyes. The mechanic yelled somethin into his ear. Fangio let him see a sad smile, he shrugged massively. He got into the automobile, stared briefly at the instruments and then he went away and the other two, Eugenio Castellotti and Luigi Musso, howled after him, down the straight and under the bridge and around the corner out of sight. We could hear them through the esses and into the Warehouse road and then not again until they showed up on the back straight, the three of them in echelon astern, the howling of the engines squeezed down by distance to a thin buzz, their progress across the horizon apparently so leisurely that you wondered why this would be called racing. They were running around 140 mph.

    They went down through the gears for the hairpin turn, a 180-degree reversal, the rear wheels spinning, or trying to, and then sudenly they were in the hole at the bottom of the finishing straight, drifting up to the edge of the concrete, coming past the pits, Fangio first, sitting there limp as pasta, the Castellotti, then Musso, all of them turning 7000 rpm and then one after another they shifted up a gear, three successive explosive 'whacks' as the engines bit, and they were gone again.

    They ran over the five-mile circuit a dozen laps like that, tight together, so stable they seemed locked to the ground like buildings, but flying past light as deer at the same time. Wet with rain, the hurried-on paint glistened like oven-fired enamel as the cars screamed down the shiny concrete chute, the drivers sitting back from the wheels, their arms straight.

    These were beautiful objects, perfect of their kind, there was nothing of crudity or starkness about them now. I was hard to believe that any of the other sixty cars that would start the race the next day could run ahead of the red Ferraris, and none of them did."

    Forza
     
  39. barchetta

    barchetta Formula Junior

    Nov 5, 2003
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    As far as I know, RL does not track his own cars. However, I do recall his 375 Plus being featured and piloted/raced (probably by AD) at Laguna Seca in the Ferrari, Victory by Design video. Also, RL and other members of his family exercise at least some of the vehicles in the collection fairly frequently. I have personally witnessed him driving his 300SL in Greenwich, CT. BTW, there is an interview with Ralph Lauren in this months Octane.
     
  40. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    "These were stark, open two-seaters. Their paint was flat and crude. The bucket seats were upholstered in wide-wale corduroy. Everything else in the cars except the wood steering wheels was bare unpainted metal, much of it roughly finished. Heavy welding seams joined the thin tubes of the frames. Shiny streaks here and there showed where oil had been mopped up. A man next to me turned, remembering the old pilots' gag: "You wouldn't send the kid up in THAT!" he said."

    Exactly how it was from someone who was there. That's all I'm saying.
    Thanks Bryan

    BTW pls. see my post re "Vintage Fuel Safety"
     
  41. Gramps

    Gramps Karting

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    Great post Bryan.

    Thanks for the memories.

    Gary
     
  42. wolfchen75

    wolfchen75 Karting

    Aug 7, 2004
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    Bridgehampton
    about 20 years ago RL ran into me with his Ferrari Daytona Spyder. It's the
    black one in the photographs. He was driving the car in Sag Harbor NY and pulled out of his parking space without looking into the front of my Shelby
    Ford Pickup(don't ask, long story), Damage to Ferrari one crumpled rear
    quarter panel, damage to Ford one slight stratch to front bumper, which was
    already showing plently of wear from pushing around race cars.

    RL jumps out and yells at me "do you know who I am ?" as if that gave him
    a right of way in all situations. I replied that he was a fellow with a bent
    sport car. He got so mad at that remark that I thought he would have
    a heart attack. he told me that I had damaged a very valuable vehicle,
    I didn't take the bait and pointed out that I had the right of way and he must
    have been not looking to miss my huge white with blue stripped pickup.

    He clearly thought about it for a second calmed down and got back into
    his F. and left without offering me his insurance card or liscence. I thought
    about calling the police to see if they wanted to follow up,but as my truck wasn't really damaged and RL is rather litigious, I decided to let it drop.

    So I guess that he does drive his cars, but unfortunatley he think that he owns the road too.
     
  43. BigTex

    BigTex Six Time F1 World Champ
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    One riot. One Ranger

    One smart ass question. One post response. :)

    Most of ya'll know I ran it WAY up in Zupra's Cafe!

    ttfn....bbl
     
  44. BigTex

    BigTex Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Well, he HAD to repaint that one then, we'll cut him some slack!
     
  45. dretceterini

    dretceterini F1 Veteran

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    I don't know the man, but if that's the way he really is, I find it sad that he owns the cars he does...
     
  46. zjpj

    zjpj F1 Veteran

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    I would probably lose my cool too if I had just cost myself $250,000+
     
  47. zjpj

    zjpj F1 Veteran

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    I am personally very torn. I think it's very hard. I love these cars because of their history, and I do a lot of research into it. But I also think they are art. And like art that I hang on the wall, I totally understand people who just want to just look at the artistic perfection, and feel that they are ruining it by chipping up the front. Jim, you wouldn't let dust collect on your Renoir, even though it's pretty easy just to wipe all that dust off once it gets to a "2" down from a "10." There's something to be said for keeping these cars pristine and pure and totally untouched, because they look freaking amazing and are art, pure and simple. That said, I love the history, love what these cars were like in their period, and I love when owners push them hard. I can see both sides of the debate, and I sympathize with both.
     
  48. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Read and think about Bryan's post. These's are pieces of history not works of Art. History in a race car is VERY IMPORTANT. I really beleive that the best 0846 is going to get is what's now my car. If exactly what 0846 was in photo 55 existed today it would be worth 25 million US dollars maybe more.
    For many reasons that history is gone forever. Sh it happens, BUT if one acts as a custodian as opposed to a owner of jewlery the history can be there for others to see and that is very important. Go to the Henry Ford Museum compare J5 with these cars. J5 should be restored to running condition but it should NOT be turned into a piece of jewlery.
    Best
     
  49. Chiaro_Slag

    Chiaro_Slag F1 Veteran

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    Thanks for the link. I really enjoyed the restoration slide shows.
     
  50. zjpj

    zjpj F1 Veteran

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    Jim, I think I agree, but as I say, I am very torn, becasue unlike you I can also see their value as art, as jewelry. And I understand this reluctance to ruin that look of perfection. The difference is that some people look at a car that looks like it's never been sat in and doesn't see perfection - the look of perfection is the racing helmet sitting in the cracked passenger seat in the pits. The thing is that I think they both look as beautiful - both the museum piece and that rolling piece of racing history. I think they are both beautiful in different ways. I'm just saying I can understand why people differ on this issue. If I had 0846, I'd probably put it in my living room... Or maybe I would take it to Lime Rock and drive the hell out of it every week. I honestly don't know. I don't have to make that decision yet.
    best to you,
    Zach
     
  51. Tspringer

    Tspringer F1 Veteran

    Apr 11, 2002
    6,154

    If all you care about is the artistic aspect of the automobile, then collect pictures, paintings and documentation but let someone else have the actual vehicle. Someone preferably who will not only drive it, but flog the piss out of it as it was designed to have done!

    I tend to agree with Jim. Actually, I am probably even further down the "run it hard" road than Jim as I would love to see Jim getting some of the old hot-shoes into his cars and actually see them raced. Get Chris Amon back into the P4 at next years Goodwood Revival and tell him to WIN. Thats what I would REALLY love to see! (btw.... you make that happen Jim, and I'm booking airfare for this fall!).

    Over-restored and then garaged/pampered cars are sad. I agree these cars are art, but they are "performance art". I dont think you can really get the right perspective on them unless you view them at full chat on the racetrack going at it wheel to wheel with others of their kind. I watched the Good Revival coverage on Speed Channel and I am not exaggerating when I say it was the absolute best racing I saw anywhere last year. F1???? Crap. Watching the St. Mary's Trophy race at the Revival had me on the edge of my seat. Fantastic cars being raced just as hard as possible, four wheel drifting at 125mph wheel to wheel.... it doesnt get any better!



    Terry
     
  52. davidgoerndt

    davidgoerndt Formula 3

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    Orlando, FL
    Full Name:
    David Goerndt
    I was watching the same race. It surprised me that these guys were racing hard and occasionally trading paint as the 330 LMB and another car dented each other, not caring about the value of the cars they were driving! The announcers were noting the value, however!

    David Goerndt
     

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