1. I have started the new week 1 FerrariChat Update poll, please vote... http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/ferrarichat-com-update-week-1-poll.560487/
  1. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Texas!
    I think the question that Zack is asking is, "When do cars become art?" I think that this really got started when Guggenheim opened their Art and Motorcycle exhibit. All of a sudden, it became fashisonable even for your upper east side, lifting pinky finger, art maven to gush over a vehicle.

    Take Lawrence Stroll's P4, for example. I don't mean any offense here, but clearly this car never looked this pretty back when it was a race car. But, boy does it look pretty! All those shiny primary colors blending into a piece of machinery. I can clearly see this car as an art exhibit. In fact, I'd probably sit there and stare at it for hours.

    While I realize the Mr. Stroll still tracks this car on occassion, I wouldn't blame him if he didn't. Other than taking a few exhibit parade laps so that we, the great unwashed, could get a chance to see, hear, and smell the car (yes, I said smell), what good would come out of running this car anywhere near 8/10s?

    On the other hand, I keep hearing Jonie Mitchell's line about, "They cut all the trees down and put them in a tree museum."

    Dale

    BTW Zack, "When do cars become art?" would make an excellent article. Hint, hint.
     
  2. El Wayne

    El Wayne Global Moderator
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    Jim, in brief defense of RL, I know for a fact that several of the Ferraris that he now owns (0398, 0734, 2163, 3987, 6321, etc.) had been restored by others prior to his ownership. In these cases, there wasn't much historical patina to preserve. In the case of 0792TR, the car competed at Le Mans... twice. It competed at Sebring where it took first over all... twice. It was eventually rebodied and continued to compete in less significant events. I don't think anyone can find it difficult to understand the decision to return the car to it's original configuration.

    The one thing that I can understand is your disgust at seeing the cars in better, shinier condition than when they were new. Even so, that's a matter of personal taste and, on a car that's already been heavily restored once or twice, there's no crime being committed against historical preservation. Certainly the next owner can do with the car as he pleases.
     
  3. CMY

    CMY F1 Veteran

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    #103 CMY, Feb 11, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I think there is a VERY fine line in this discussion that will never give us a hard and fast rule to keeping history in a restoration. Jim walks that line very well, but we can't expect everyone to do the same.. RL takes it a bit too far. I'd like to see some survivors in that garage, not just absolute perfection at any cost.

    The car below is a good example of "What do you do?" I'm not sure if I'd just bring it back up to operational status, keep it as is, or do a full restoration. I'd be curious to hear what Jim thinks, even if the reality is far different.

    http://www.cobracountry.com/articles-cobra/missing-coupe/

    -Chris
    coupe-CSX2287-pho1.jpg
     
  4. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Great example. This is a one-of-a-kind car, right? If it were me, I'd get it running and then preserve it. Then again, it's not up to me is it?

    BTW, whatever did happen to this car? Did the buyer end up getting to keep it.

    Dale
     
  5. El Wayne

    El Wayne Global Moderator
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    No good will come from just letting her deteriorate. She needs to be repainted, de-rusted and made road worthy at the least.
     
  6. BigTex

    BigTex Six Time F1 World Champ
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    The bunnies are still dead...........I think the Doc back east kept it.

    Phil Spector got suddenly busy with more pressing things.
     
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  8. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Wayne
    Agree totally.

    Tex
    u B a FUnnY guY!

    Chris
    Now that one. THE ONLY CAR MADE IN AMERICA TO WIN THE FIA CUP.
    The car that made good that Chicken Farmer's boast: "Ferrari you're as s is mine."
    The history that Tex talked about.

    That car is now owned by a friend and it was designed by a friend who I'll be seeing next week at the Canadian International Auto Show where 0846 and J6 will be and he will be speaking.

    WE'RE TALKING MAJOR HISTORY.

    It's being treated real well. Cleaned up but still as wicked as they come.
    If you want to see it its now at the Sarasota Auto Museum for a while.
    The current owner also owns J8 and MANY MANY other great pieces of history.

    Terry

    This June Sal and I are taking 0846 and 002C back to Italy to run the historic Targa Floria. Nino, who's now a bit older will be driving with me. I do hope we keep her between the lines this time.

    Best To All
     
  9. Tspringer

    Tspringer F1 Veteran

    Apr 11, 2002
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    Some of them were definitely swapping paint. In a later race for later and much faster cars, a GT-40 was well and truely smashed. Sad to see, but I am sure the owner will have the car fixed and it will be back out there next year..... as it should be.

    I know many will disagree, but to me a quarter panel smashed while racing and subsequently fixed in 1965 is no different than the same thing happening today.

    Anyone who has watched the Goodwood Revival races understands that those guys are RACING. It was great when one of the announcers asked Jackie Stewart why he was not out there. He said "When I stepped out of my last racing car, I said I would never race again, and make no mistake, those guys out there are racing as hard as they ever did, most of them should know better!". Well, I disagree about knowing better and I take huge joy in watching them go at it!

    Racing cars are for racing. Vintage racing cars should race against other vintage racing cars and I understand and have no issue with the fact that most vintage racing is 9/10ths..... but when they really do go at it 100%, its a beautiful thing and the best racing on the planet today!


    Terry
     
  10. BigTex

    BigTex Six Time F1 World Champ
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    This thread was in a lurid slide.....

    You gathered it up real well!

    Best wishes, shake his hand for me.......I have a little diorama of your car against that rock wall.....at 1:43. Don't recall where I got the darn thing.
     
  11. Tspringer

    Tspringer F1 Veteran

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    Sounds like TONS of fun! Shoot video! Take lots of pics! Put the right foot on the floor, flog the piss out of her, keep her between the lines and enjoy every resulting rock chip as a memory of great times past.

    Still..... Amon..... Goodwood......




    Terry
     
  12. 4CamGT

    4CamGT Formula 3
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    Its only original once. By the way, the body is made out of aluminium and won't rust.

    Freeman
     
  13. Horsefly

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    NEWS FLASH: Smithsonian Institution officials announced today that the "Spirit of America" Ryan monoplane, which was used by Charles Lindburg to make the first solo transatlantic flight, will be dusted off, refueled, fired up, and flown around the country on a national tour. "These planes were meant to fly and that's what they're going to do" said Amelio Patina, curator for the National Air and Space Museum which is home to the nation's historic aircraft. "If the tour goes well, we plan to fire up the Enola Gay and take her on a tour of Japan as well. Forget about the value of these artifacts and what they might mean to future generations. They belong to us and we're going to use them as they were intended to be used. Restoration is much overated. Museums are boring. Fuel 'em up, fly the wings off them, and remember the good old days. Who cares if we destroy them in the process. The present is far more important than the future."
     
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  15. CMY

    CMY F1 Veteran

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    I'm glad it's being looked after and not getting a 101-point rapestoration.

    I'll keep an eye out for it, but please feel free to post any pics you might be sitting on.. I really enjoyed finally seeing the Mclaren dent on J6; I don't know if it's just me, but that is a great representation of how an inperfection can make an automobile 'perfect'. Thank you for sharing it with us!

    -Chris
     
  16. whart

    whart F1 Veteran
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    FWIW, I also ran into RL one day (figuratively), driving up in the Bedford area near Rt. 22.
    I was rolling down Rt.35 (for those who know the area) when i saw a 360 spider cross 35 and continue south down Rt 22. At this time, there were very few 360 spiders on the road. I had recently taken delivery of my black barchetta, and decided to go Ferrari-hunting. It did not take me long to speed up, hang a right, and zoom down 22, to catch up with the yellow spider. As soon as the driver saw me in his mirrors, he stepped on it. I was not trying to race, just figured a friendly howdy. So, i pulled up parallel with him, screamed "hello, just wanted to say hi!" He made a motion to turn off up ahead (we were right at the intersection where Martha's farm is), so i pulled over, and so did he. This petite man, well-dressed, very recognizable get's out- says "hi- I'm Ralph Lauren" and offered his hand. I, of course, needed no introduction, but introduced myself anyway. He was quite friendly, eyed the barchetta and commented that it looked better in the flesh and in black than he thought it would, having declined to purchase one himself. We kicked tires and chatted cars for another minute or so, and said "Tra-la."

    As to overrestoration, wasn't Ralph more responsible than anybody for putting the big money into the resto of that Bugatti, and essentially upping the ante at Pebble for "richest guy to throw the most money at a car" wins?

    No malice intended toward anyone, least of all, RL. Who was ok in my book.
     
  17. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
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    Whart shed some light on this with his post, but I'm curious: does RL also have daily driver Ferraris, or other interesting daily driver type cars?
     
  18. msdesignltd

    msdesignltd F1 Veteran
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    I see his daily driver every day on 7th ave.. It is chaueffer driven.
    it is a Silver 2005 AMG S55 Kompressor.....The front fenders are Lorinser, they have scoops cut into the sides, that are non functional.The windows are fully tinted and the wheels are polished alum. He has homes across the globe.Bedford,montauk, Colorado,Jamaica...and more..he is sole proprietor of a 5 BILLION dollar a year Empire....He made on his own from Scratch...His real name was Ralph Lipschitz.And in my book the man is a living american legend/Icon.

    He also gives me more than 2 million $$ in business a year. I can not complain.
     
  19. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3

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    out of town now but will try to post a few RL pics when I get home.

    I have 20-30 pics of the cars. I spent sometime helping in the restoration of the black/tan Daytona spider ( originally red/blk) drove it at WPB show in 86, and the red/grey (buffalo hides) 275Nart ( originally yellow/blk i think), drove at Watkins Glen 87.
    I also have a few of the 61 TRC and 250 GTO's--think he at one time had 3 gto's.
    There is another Daytona spider not pictured (white car) in Jamiaca that I know of.
     
  20. El Wayne

    El Wayne Global Moderator
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    Unfortunately, everything else isn't.
     
  21. El Wayne

    El Wayne Global Moderator
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    ?
     
  22. Tspringer

    Tspringer F1 Veteran

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    One of a kind historic aircraft are a different thing. When a plane suffers a major crash, often all that is left is a smoking hole in the ground. There is no subsequent "restoration". Thus, flying a one of a kind plane like the "Spirit of St. Louis" is not a smart thing.

    But lots of very valuable and historic planes are indeed flown. The EAA has a huge collection of historic vintage planes, they maintain them in flyable condition and they actually do fly them for display. So do lots of other flying museams. Kermit Weeks in FL has a massive collection of WWII aircraft and he flies them all!


    Terry
     
  23. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran
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    What about driving "one of a kind" Ferraris? Like maybe 0856; 0846(?), etc.?

    Why can we "restore" a rare Ferrari out of nothing more than a scrap of frame, yet we couldn't "restore" a rare aircraft the same way? Not all air crashes end in total destruction. I smell a double standard cooking in the "crock" pot!!!
     
  24. El Wayne

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    Okay, keep it on topic, gentlemen. We're discussing Ralph Lauren's Ferrari collection.
     
  25. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran
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    My point was simply: RL's cars, over-restored though they may be, will most likely be around a whole lot longer for future Ferrari enthusiasts to enjoy than will be those cars that are restored to strictly original condition and raced in vintage events. The analogy to vintage aircraft is on target. While airshows allow aircraft buffs to actually experience the aircraft as they were, those same airshows are also the scenes of numerous crashes that destroy those very aircraft so revered by the aircraft buffs. The only true way to preserve any object for future enthusiasts is to use it with care and reverance; NOT doing aerial acrobatics in a vintage aircraft or racing around the track in a million dollar Ferrari. As has happened many times, one brief lapse of concentration and "bye bye" million dollar car or airplane. The ravages of competition and time have already whittled away at the numbers of surviving rare automobiles. Why would you deliberately put a race veteran car back out on the track where it can risk being totally destroyed beyond salvaging? As I said, it makes about as much sense as taking the Spirit of St.Louis out for a few loops and barrel rolls. More power to RL for keeping those rare "birds" warm and comfy in his five star garage. They'll probably be around for a long time.
     
  26. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    I've been driving cars like these around in the sun,in the rain and in the case of J6 once in the sleet and snow, for over 34 years. I've driven them at speed in the US, shipped them to Europe and driven them there. I think it's safe to say that I have put as many miles on sports racing cars as anyone in the world;over 125,000.
    I've shown them at Pebble and I've shown them at local cruise nights.
    Last time I checked they seemed fine.
     
  27. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    After all of that FYI Arlie here's what Pete Brock wrote to me about J6.

    James
    Your understanding of the true meaning of these ol' cars is really appreciated-thanks for keeping a car as a bit of History so that future generations will understand why this stuff is so wonderfull.
     
  28. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran
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    Wouldn't a drive in a vintage car be just like a marriage? Everything is fine,....up until the moment it all falls apart in a fiery crash?

    Maybe you're just a better driver than most JG. But utilizing the vintage aircraft analogy, one could easily make a nice 2 hour DVD movie featuring nothing but the crashes of vintage aircraft that were totally destroyed at air shows. Here at work, I use to have a one hour 3/4" cassette tape of all the crashes that I saved off the various news feeds. I called it my "Crash and Burn" reel. It was quite dramatic. How many vintage cars have been destroyed in various races? From what I've seen here on F-chat, the mere act of filling a gas tank can be quite an adventure on a mere 308. I can't see how the "risk of permanent destruction" of a vintage race car can equal the thrill of driving in one afternoon's race. A thrill is temporary, destruction is permanent. To each his own. But I will still cringe and shake my head when I see the next posting or news story where a wonderfull car meets it's firey end on the race track years after its prime.
     
  29. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Arlie
    The one's I drive in aren't races. They're 6/10 demos. Most Vintage Racing aren't RACES either. The one's Terry spoke of are closer to real racing and as for those I don't enter them for many reasons some you've covered and some are because after my Son was born I agreed with my wife not to.
    As for using them the way I do that's IMO much more perserving for them than to let them sit as you avocate.
     
  30. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran
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    Jim, it appears that things can be worse than destroying your Ferrari in a race. Imagine having your Ferrari stolen, and you never bother to obtain insurance. Jezzzzz!!!!
    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=134714752#post134714752
    I hope RL has insurance for his cars, just in case he ends up like Reggie Jackson did many years ago. (His garage filled with hi-dollar hemi Dodges and Chryslers went up in flames. Dozens of burnt out hulks all in a row. Ouch.)
     
  31. CMY

    CMY F1 Veteran

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    I respectfully disagree.

    Something that is not used for its intended purpose loses its value. You forget that it's our responsibility as owners and enthusiasts to pass the torch to each following generation- Without using the cars, you're failing to ignite their interest, IMHO. RL's cars can sit in a perfectly undisturbed state for a century and become completely worthless in that time (obviously I'm being extreme to prove a point).

    The Enola Gay and Spirit of St. Louis are historic items to everyone, not just aircraft enthusiasts. They are not held in private garages, there are not multiple copies with multiple histories and no one expects (or wants) them to fly again. Even if they disappeared tomorrow, their signifigance would continue.

    Trying to draw a line from over-restored garage queens to aircraft that have changed the course of history is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

    -Chris
     
  32. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran
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    Not true in my book. For example, there probably hasn't been a 1957 Ferrari Testarossa in the state of Arkansas for 40 years, yet I know what one looks like. I personally have only seen two flying B-17 bombers in Arkansas within the past 30 years, yet there are plenty of people who have an interest in WWII aircraft here in this state. I've never seen Karmen Electra in person, but I still have an interest. You don't have to put them in jeopardy to create an interest. (The Civil War hasn't been around for 140 years, but people still have an interest. One doesn't need to pull original uniforms and rifles out of a museum and run around in a field by a campfire in order to have the interest.) (not my cup of tea though.)
    How can kids have any interest in dinosaurs? They died out over 150 million years ago and haven't been seen since.
     
  33. El Wayne

    El Wayne Global Moderator
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    This is exactly where your analogy falls apart. There is no equivalent 2 hours of crash footage showing historic Ferraris being totally destroyed at vintage racing events. If you want to talk planes, take it to Off Topic.
     
  34. CMY

    CMY F1 Veteran

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    Straws, and you grasping at them. That's all I see right now.

    I understand the point- cars, planes, people, & things can disappear, but that doesn't mean anyone loses interest. You're right, you don't have to see them in person.

    BUT there is a reason why thousands of people dress up in period attire and re-enact the Civil War each year. There's a reason why people sit in the desert for months at a time to find a dinosaur bone. There's a reason why people flock to Goodwood & air shows across the country every year.

    It's because there's nothing quite like seeing & experiencing it with your own eyes. I'd suggest you get out more. ;)

    -Chris
     
  35. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Texas!
    Well? Did you tell him that you are Jimmy Page's twin?
     
  36. barchetta

    barchetta Formula Junior

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    Last time I checked, he was not a sole proprietor. I think he gave up on that whole concept (courtesy of Goldman Sachs). Still an incredibly successful individual.
     
  37. JOEV

    JOEV F1 Rookie

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    Thanks Bryan - that truly gave me goose bumps.
     
  38. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3

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    Wayne , I saw one he bought back in ---about 87--- that was aparently one that was rarely raced. If I recall it had some cool stuff like a passanger foot rest in it.
    And there was a 2nd on at Cavalino 3 yrs ago in bare metal that belonged to him.
     
  39. El Wayne

    El Wayne Global Moderator
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    When RL purchased 3987GT in 1985, it was wearing the Mecom racing colors of blue with a white stripe. A few years ago, the car was stripped of its paint and shown at Cavallino before going back to Paul Russell and Co. for a repaint back to its original Rosso Cina. So, one car, three colors: blue, bare aluminum and red.

    By the way, this car had a very impressive racing career early in its life at the hands of legendary drivers such as the Rodriguez brothers, Roger Penske and Ritchie Ginther. Its numerous class and over all victories included a 1st in class at Sebring in 1963.
     
  40. Boudewijn

    Boudewijn Moderator
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    #138 Boudewijn, Feb 13, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Sebring 1963
    Resize of Ferrari 250 GTO #3987GT  08-01 12 hrs Sebring 1963.jpg
     
  41. mattymouse33

    mattymouse33 F1 Rookie

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    Nah it was 137 GTO's
     
  42. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Now that is how a race car should look.
     
  43. BigHead

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    Check this thread out, especially if you want to attend the show with the FCA and enjoy a private reception and curator-directed viewing the event (weather permitting, we'll have a parade down Huntingdon Ave. too).
    http://70.85.40.84/~ferrari/forum/showthread.php?t=50054

    vty,

    --Dennis
     
  44. rosso_fanatic

    rosso_fanatic Formula Junior

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    This thread is long dead but it's fascinating so I'm going to chime in anyways. lol.

    Maybe Ralph over restores his cars and dosent pay them enough attention but at least they arent sitting amongst a 5000 car collection in Brunei or some other forgotten royal garage at the other end of the earth where they wont ever be seen unless the king is overthrown. At that point it's a crap shoot whether or not the cars would even survive.

    Whether Ralph or Jim have their cars best interest in mind is a matter of oppinion (I admire both of them as car collectors a great deal.) I hope we can all agree that the exotic car hoarding in places like Brunei and UAE is just plain wrong though.
     
  45. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #143 Napolis, May 12, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I do want to say that while I think his Ferrari's are a bit over restored that level of restoration is totally appropriate on his other cars and the one Paul Russell did on the SSK he brought to Villa d'Este was spectacular.
    IMG_0664 2.jpg
     
  46. Bertocchi

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    It is hard to critisize a man that has owned his cars for twenty years plus and allows them to be displayed in public.
    I am sure that as an artist/designer he appreciates overall apperance of the car more than "patina". Everyone has their own criteria for their cars and Ralph's sure beats some others.
     
  47. krasnavian

    krasnavian Formula 3

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    I agree! This car was my daily driver for a number of years and though it went red before I acquired it, all the racing lights--roof, side and rear--were retained. As I study current photos of 3987, there is no doubt of its beauty but I see it now as a generic GTO absent all the myth, legend and chicanery that befalls a racing car that has been around for awhile.

    My favorite photos of Hemingway are those taken in his later years which evidence all the joys and concerns he had experienced, not the ones from an earlier time absent life's mark. I feel the same about racing cars. For me, the only question would be which era of the car's history would I want to represent in restoring it. The fresh-out-of-the-oven look is far less interesting to me. Perhaps I'd feel differently about a passenger car restoration.
     
  48. GTE

    GTE F1 Veteran

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    I think you hit the nail on the head and I can see Ralph's point of view on this.
     
  49. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    Congrats on owning a peice of history. My hats off to you. Now go drive the damn thing! ;)
     
  50. olinde

    olinde Karting

    Mar 23, 2004
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    I agree re: Sutan of Brunei, it is just a waste.

    I also agree that Paul Russel's restorations are well carried-out. But they are overzealous; the cars rolling ouf of their garages are more like remanufactured pastiches of the real thing, versus the actual car which rolled in months earlier. Pound-for-pound, how much of the metal, leather, glass etc. on those restorations is actually old?

    I'll shut up again now. Don't mean to offend anyone.
     
  51. Bertocchi

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    Full Name:
    David Castelhano
    Paul is trying to meet customer expectations. He is given a criteria by them and does a great job of meeting it. Unfortunately many collectors (not restorers) arelooking for jewelry.

    David
     
  52. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,122
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    This is a very good point.
     

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