road-going 'ALLOY' 365 GTB/4 Daytona - barn find

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Makuono, Aug 23, 2017.

  1. I have started the new week 1 FerrariChat Update poll, please vote... http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/ferrarichat-com-update-week-1-poll.560487/
  1. Makuono

    Makuono Formula Junior
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    #1 Makuono, Aug 23, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    First time I hear about these "alloy" Daytona. Amazing find. Unbelievable how such car is kept secretly.

    "The ONLY ROAD-GOING 'ALLOY' 365 GTB/4 DAYTONA IN EXISTENCE...

    ...This is the only street version of just five lightweight Alloy Daytonas ever built. Recently discovered in #Japan after being hidden away for nearly 40 years, it will be offered at our #Maranello sale in remarkable, unrestored condition for the very first time."


    https://www.instagram.com/rmsothebys/



    (in case this is a repost, kindly erase the thread)
    Captura de ecrã 2017-08-23, às 21.12.56.jpg
     
  2. sperry

    sperry Karting

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    I wonder if they'll wipe the dirt off for the auction.
     
  3. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    RM Sotheby's state: "This is the only street version of just five lightweight Alloy Daytonas ever built."

    I thought there were 6 other alloy Daytonas which are Comp cars as follows: 12547 which RM refer to in their description of this car which is 12653 plus 5 of the 1971 Series 1 Comp Daytonas as follows: 14407, 14429, 14437, 14885 and 14889.
     
  4. Daytonafan

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    I think whoever made the Instagram post made an error as the catalogue states this was additional to the 5 series 1 cars. however that still omits reference to 12547.

    1969 Ferrari 365 GTB/4 Daytona Berlinetta Alloy by Scaglietti | Ferrari ? Leggenda e Passione 2017 | RM Sotheby's
     
  5. 375+

    375+ F1 Rookie
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    I think that the dirt is holding the car together. Man that is a rough piece, a very expensive restoration for the next owner.
     
  6. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Rookie
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    Look at the pictures of the interior, especially the seats.

    Barn find originality can also mean decrepit. If the car is properly cleaned up and made mechanically functional does it diminish in value?
     
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  8. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    Nice and interesting Daytona.

    It should be SIX comp. alloy cars and ONE road car.

    if the car needs body off restoration, full mechanical overhaul, retrim, rechrome, refurbish everything it will be in the million plus (if done by Classiche)
    But I read: Application for certification submitted to Ferrari Classiche.
    So I doubt if you go to Coachbuilder X and Engineering comp Y your car will be certified, but I might be wrong.

    Strip the paint off and you can see the corrosion on the alloy body. It might be very good after all those years of neglect.
     
  9. sixcarbs

    sixcarbs F1 Rookie
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    Drooling here.

    I love this car. Wish I was bidding.

    I would sort out the mechanicals and the suspension, wash it and drive it for a while, then decide later whether or not to ever do anything with the cosmetics.
     
  10. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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    How much lighter is it?
     
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  11. Ed Niles

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    Back in the day, I brokered an alloy car to Rick Schramek and Ray Ramsey (Ferrari of S.F.), but don't have a record of the S/N. It was at that time that the original keeper of S/N's, Jess Pourret, told me that the comp Daytonas were built in 3 series of 5 each, of which only 1 (5 cars) were alloy. Jess has been proven wrong once or twice, but generally he had good factory info.
    Since the car in question is alleged to be a road car, the above may have no relevance.
    I think Jess still helps out a bit at Classiche.
     
  12. miurasv

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    14437?
     
  13. Tenney

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    #12 Tenney, Aug 24, 2017
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    Barn finds are hot at the moment (and that's a cool car!). Though would guess that, unless that dirt has a point of view (LeMans? Daytona?), someone will wash it at some point and sell it for more money. Meanwhile, go Herman ...!
    5-30-2009-21-32-33--aeoliandave.jpg
     
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  15. TheMayor

    TheMayor Five Time F1 World Champ
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    #13 TheMayor, Aug 24, 2017
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    It has A/C?

    How did the interior get so muddy? Did they leave the windows down all that time?
    Capture.jpg
     
  16. 375+

    375+ F1 Rookie
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    The A/C looks like a bogus aftermarket item, not factory.
     
  17. miurasv

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    #15 miurasv, Aug 24, 2017
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    Steering wheel not correct either is it? Abarth???

    A minor thing though.
     
  18. cmt6891

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    The car looks like it was submerging in water for a time, with all the steel components corroded. Good thing it is an alloy body ;)
     
  19. miurasv

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    #17 miurasv, Aug 24, 2017
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    Looks like it's been stored under an open shelter???
    12653outside.jpg
     
  20. miurasv

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    #18 miurasv, Aug 24, 2017
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    Unusually has 205 x 70VR15 tires.
    12653blowuptires.jpg
     
  21. TheMayor

    TheMayor Five Time F1 World Champ
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    I agree... but that means someone installed the compressor, condenser, dryer, hoses, tubes, belts, pulleys, wires and who knows what else in it somewhere.

    Looks also like some butchery of the door panels for a radio as well.
     
  22. PAUL500

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    Oh come on, regardless of what it looks like now, we all know that in a year or so it will be on the lawns of Pebble Beach looking like its been in a deep sterile hibernation since the day it left the factory, the years of use will be swept away from its history completely and forever.
     
  23. bighitter2

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    I could see it displayed at "The Peterson Museum" just as it sits roped off with those red velour
    Ropes :)
     
  24. Laserguru

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    Can't really call that a barn. But I now feel highly motivated to go check all my dilapidated sheds to see if there might be something interesting hiding under the rotting canvas tarps.

    Really, how did this once upon a time beauty just go abandoned under a shed for 40 yrs? SMH....
     
  25. 4redude

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    Also , all the bumpers have been painted black, the steering column stalk on the LH side of the column is aftermarket and looks like it has a button on the end of the stalk for maybe cruise control???
     
  26. Tenney

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    With the various items that have been swapped-out here and there, it's not really a "time-capsule" - as originality has already been altered.

    If the sheetmetal's still good, might be best not to take it apart - but restoring the various pieces to original could be ok while the hobby decides what dust is good dust?
     
  27. wildcat326

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    #25 wildcat326, Aug 25, 2017
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    Two questions:

    1) Is there any chance that, as an alloy one-off, it had some other trim features unique to it, like the steering wheel?

    2) Am I the only one who thinks that it looks about a $600 detail job away from "not that bad?"

    Mind you, I'm not saying the hoses haven't rotted and the engine doesn't need a refresh, but otherwise looks like the interior has lost color due to humidity and probably will have a misty stench from rotting seat foam. I PROBABLY could Cannonball it with the windows down for fresh air if I had to:) But then, I sorta like "patina."
     
  28. TTR

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    #26 TTR, Aug 25, 2017
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    Re: 1) Most of the non-standard items appear to be some kind of aftermarket or later modifications of OEM parts. It even appears to have been repainted after it left the factory.

    Re: 2) Yes, you might be only one. Many often mistake neglect for "patina". Based on shown photos, this car will likely require quite a bit more than "$600 detail job" to get her cleaned, sorted and useable, but more than likely she's in a desperate need of full restoration.
     
  29. Maximillian575GTC

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    I very much agree -- was this thing still in Japan when the Tsunami hit? Looks like unfortunately flood damaged car now being passed along as a 'barn find in need of restoration'. The corrosion locations and the way muck is deposited around (and in) the vehicle makes me think that she's had a lot more unpleasant life than is being let on.
     
  30. toto70_0

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    for me it is the Holy Grail of the Daytona's, tby the way his actual car made me join ferrarichat.
     
  31. isaydingdong

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  32. Ferrari 360 CS

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    I agree with this, once you start bringing it back to life inevitably it will get to a stage where you end up restoring the entire car. Having said that the body doesn't look too bad but I think it would need a new wiring loom and comprehensive mechanical restoration done.
     
  33. Lussolover

    Lussolover Karting

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    More like years of neglect and non use will be swept away. This isn't patina, it's embarassing. Whoever owned the car through the years ought to be ashamed of themself. Likely could have probably driven it the whole time and gotten less wear. Wow. Hopefully someone will rectify this and halt deterioration, and get it driving.

    I think if you want to save a car off the road for decades and this is the best you can do please give the car to someone less inept.
     
  34. Bandonbound

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    Great story but being the skeptic, something just feels wrong. Technically around 22k (US) miles, interior looks beat, and also it's because I can't have it! I wish the Roush book stated "alloy body." Also wish it wasn't up for auction in a little more than 2 weeks from its "discovery?" Does anyone remember what the parking garage Daytona several years back sold for? Was it in Chicago? Similar condition to a Porsche Speedster I think this year, 1955 I think, sold for double all the experts estimates! So lets see!
     
  35. silver1331

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    Japanese car...the amount of rare cars modded there is surprising but to each their own. Originality is valued more in later years not the present and my guess is this car was modded shortly after new (70s/80s)
     
  36. The Red Baron

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    It still amases me how many idiots can not tell the differnece between patina and neglect. Theirs bound to be some one out there who is going to pay a premium for this once lovely car that has been mistreated and left to the elements. In my opinion the current value is around the same as any Daytona since the costs to get this back to the state that Enzo sent it out of the factory, as a master piece, will probably be more than another daytona again in price.
    Also to leave the car like it is would be condoning the neglect this car has endewered.
    Hopefully will be bought at a fair price and restored to what Enzo envisaged the car to look like.
     
  37. pappy.72

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    I would change the fluids (fuel lines, brake lines, and gas tank too), install a new battery, give it a tune up, brake job, new tires, and drive it as is...just to piss people off. Ha!
     
  38. TTR

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    That would be fine IF no other services or repairs weren't required, but having some experience with these and variety of other vintage cars, I'd venture a guess that a lot more will be needed before this is really useable and safe on the road.

    Just out of curiosity, how many major services including comprehensive brake, steering & suspension rebuilds (all which this car will undoubtedly require at minimum) and proper tune-ups, etc on this type of vehicles have you experienced or performed ?
     
  39. TTR

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    And then there was that Northern California barn/garage/storage(?) find Daytona few years ago, where someone actually video recorded and publicly shared their moronic first(?) start-up and prompt high revving stupidity.
    IIRC, that video was even shared on this site, but I couldn't bring myself to finish watching it.
     
  40. Ed Niles

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    Yes, Steve, 14437. I should have remembered as I went to the 24 hours of Daytona with that car (and 2 others).

    I think a few of you are a bit too harsh on the owner. Many a derelict passed through my hands back in the day with no resto at all. Why? Because the cost of resto far exceeded the projected value. If this car got flooded in the 70's or 80's, its value then didn't warrant any serious work. Even today, a buyer who gets caught up in "barn find fever" and overpays may live to regret his purchase. What's a complete resto cost these days? Half a mil? More? And what's the value of a restored Daytona with alloy and no racing history? I dunno, but I say proceed with caution.

    Incidentally, I have only been through complete restos in my life (0434MD and 0515GT), and they cost way less than what I hear today. Of course maybe the standards weren't so high then? I came out OK on both cars.
     
  41. ferrarip4

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    #39 ferrarip4, Aug 28, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Pics of this "barn find"...

    Let's be realistic. Many have discussed the "value" of this car and argue that, because of the state of neglect, such car would not be worth the restoration.

    Let me chime in with some numbers to put things in perspective. Out of 1,284 or so Berlinetta produced, it's the ONLY factory alloy road car made, especially in the IMO most desirable "plexiglass" fixed headlight version. Even if it has had cosmetic modifications in the interior, these can fairly easily reverted back to factory spec in the restoration. If we estimate that an average sale value of a Daytona is in the $600K give or take, this car is comfortably above that value because of its uniqueness and I don't believe it is a $600K restoration work. RM estimates the value of this car between $1.7M and $2M, which in my eyes it will easily reach at auction. Let's find out how much the car makes in a couple of weeks...

    IMO, If I had a few million to spare, I'd certainly be bidding on it ;-)

    Maybe Marcel Massini can give his opinion on this as he saw the car...
    Ferrari_365GTB4_DaytonaBerlinettaAlloy_01.jpg
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  42. boxerman

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    I know reputedly of one other. As a child in South Africa Dan Levine was a famous car aficianado and friend of my father. In the 90s dan told me of his daytona. Apparently Daytona production had already ended in I think 74 and he wanted one. Enzo had suggested to a complaining Dan who had bought pretty much every Ferrai model from 65 onwards that he should just go down the road and get a miura.

    Accordign to Dan in the end they came to an agreement. Enzo called in some engineer from the factory and told him to put together a daytona from the bits on hand. An leftover alloy comp Daytona body and leftover a comp daytona engine were fitted with an interior and shipped to South Africa.

    Dan told me that on a drive to what was then Lorenquo Marques now Mocanbique he had wound the car round to 8k rpm and a bit more, he said the speedo wound round the dial past 300kmshr. Later on the car had front end damage and was impossible to repair because it was aluminum. It was shipped to Uk and sold there.

    There was a photo on the wall at Dans house of the Daytona at the factory, the color was a puplish red which Dan said was a mercedes color called rot but looked to me like the curerent wineberry on some bently's.

    I could probably get copy of the photo from Dans son.
    Possibly as write the car was not alloy but had the comp motor, hard to say Dan was great racnotour but he sure knew his cars and had many many of them. In the 0s when i knew him as an adult he regretted of not keeping any but constantly trading them for something new.

    Dan as he got older started to move on from pure sportscars. The last two I remember in the 80s was a BMW M1 which had the rev limter removed so it could go over 165 mph, after that there was some modded 928. Then in the 90s there was a series of RS audis which he said were great because they were turn key go.
     
  43. TTR

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    Thank you for posting these higher resolution photos, which clearly show a car in a desperate need of complete restoration. They also seem to offer evidence it having received a re-spray, at least partially, once (or more?) since it left the factory.
     
  44. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Think it would be cool to do a mechanical restoration only. I'd even leave the dust.
     
  45. TTR

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    Yes, quite romantic idea, but I'd be surprised if in any sense practical and doubt the next owner will actually take that approach or even be allowed to.
    If anything, wouldn't be surprised if some kind of (must do) "Classiche" restoration is embedded to sale, after all, I assume the car is or must be "certified" to be included in this particular auction.
     
  46. ferrarip4

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    If you want to download a full set of high resolution pics go to the EVO UK site: Sole road-going ?alloy? Ferrari 356 GTB/4 Daytona for sale in Italy - pictures | Evo

    Click on the fullscreen button and then right click to download the pics ;-)
     
  47. 246tasman

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    I remember being offered this car from Japan about 10 years ago, so it has been known about for a long time at least in some circles.
     
  48. Daytonafan

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    Petrolicious have posted a video interview with Marcel on their Facebook page where he states that 'it is the only Daytona in the world today with an Aluminium body'. Do none of the Series 1 cars and perhaps more relevantly 12547 still have alloy bodies, or have Marcel's words been confused in the edit?

    Cannot link directly to the video although presumably it will be on you tube and Petrolicious' main page later today.

    https://www.facebook.com/pg/petrolicious/videos/?ref=page_internal#
     
  49. Marcel Massini

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    #47 Marcel Massini, Sep 1, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
    The only ROAD Daytona (street car) with an alloy body.
    The others are comp versions.

    12653 was sold new 15 September 1969 to Luciano Conti, founder of "Auto Sprint" magazine in Bologna, and a personal friend of Commendatore Enzo Ferrari. Conti owned several special Ferraris in the 1960's (250 SWB and 275 GTB as well).
    12653 came to Japan in October 1971 as a used car.
    The car was featured in color in the Japanese magazine "Car Graphic", issue #128 of January 1972.
    Last Japanese owner had it for more than 37 years.
    I inspected 12653 in Japan end of June 2017.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  51. Timmmmmmmmmmy

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    If Marcel says its an Alloy Road car and unique in that spec, I would believe him without a second though, he knows more about Ferrari than anyone else, I bet he has the build sheets and docs to back up any assertion too.
     
  52. Marcel Massini

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    #50 Marcel Massini, Sep 1, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Factory documentation.
    46 is the assembly sequence number.
    32 is the Scaglietti body number.
    I unscrewed several trim pieces on the car and found the body number 32 everywhere.

    Marcel Massini
    12653 Foglio Allestimenti.jpg
    IMG_8891 - Kopie.jpg
     

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