Sergio Marchionne details why a Ferrari vintage buyer has been ignored

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by TeamF1Jr, Aug 16, 2017.

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  1. Brian L

    Brian L Formula 3
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    Right. Odd to say this after the flat out lie that PF era input was no longer needed because of the advanced aero needing to be done in house, along with design/

    He's 100% contradicting himself with this new statement.

    A man for all people ! Tell them what they want to hear.
     
  2. KKSBA

    KKSBA F1 World Champ
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    +1 on that. Boy was the modern Testarossa something when it came out!
     
  3. of2worlds

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    Ferrari as a small manufacturer ( under 10,000 cars per year ) get a break from the government on some regulations like CAFE standards. Last year the production was less than 8,700 cars. They won't go over the 10,000 cars production number.
     
  4. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Texas!


    There always the rest of the world. Plus if they have to pay more to the US government, they will just raise the price.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  5. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 Formula 3
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    Steve, that reads like the direct antithesis of what the Sweater is saying
     
  6. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 Veteran
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    Eventually they will go well over 10k - Why ? Because billions in market cap are at stake
     
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  8. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie
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    Only if they make serious headway with their fleet combined MPG numbers...
     
  9. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 Veteran
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    I believe they can buy credits from other manufacturers like Tesla
     
  10. boxerman

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    In the USa they can also pay the fine per car which is relatively speaking only a few thousand per car. Yes they cam also buy credits.

    basicaly its a euro only issue.
     
  11. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie
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    There's a PR issue as well. It's not that simple IMO, especially if we're talikg brand value. Who's to say their market cap won't take a hit if they begin to produce in much higher (Porsche) numbers? Or if they throw out the V12? Or if they have to depend on Tesla credits to keep building them? I can imagine the headlines...

    Easier for them to stay conservative, raise prices and keep producing in lower volumes. As long as governments give them that sub 10k break...which won't last long, I think.
     
  12. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    Porsche sold 237,778 vehicles in 2016. Ferrari sold something like 8,200 cars in 2016. Ferrari would have to double their sales 5 times over before they hit Porsche volumes. I don't think thats a realistic. I also don't think they will ever lose the V12. I think Ferrari is very attuned to this.
     
  13. -K1-

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    Sergio already said he was going to exceed 10,000 a few earnings calls ago. Amazing that no one listens to these, gives you direct from the horse's mouth information. Thats why they are going hybrid.
     
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  15. boxerman

    boxerman F1 Veteran
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    Going past 10k units is not a big deal. Personaly brand exclusivity is way down on my list of desireable features in car. Even if ferrari doubled sales it would still be "exclusive" after all that schlocky merchandise 10k units more wont harm the brand

    What people here may not realize is ferrari is struggling to hit 10k units and thats with China and Russsia two markets that didnt exist 10 and 20 years ago. Yes some "new gotta have it" models are in manufactured short supply, as are some specials but most are not. The question then is how do they get to 10k units and then say 20k units while maintaining demmand/tension and concurrent high profit margins.

    From porches playbook More variations of a car they are already making(gt3 GT4) or a new harder core car they can easily make from bits on hand is one way. Hence the raw car for some of us. But that will net maybe another 2-3k units.

    Basicaly after that they can go the dino route, but that wont be as hugely profitable, there are not then other sprotscar niches for them, well maybe a sport classic line as ducati did.

    So the big fish has got to be transforming the Ff into a suv. As the FF/Lusso is really bespoke platform it will be a real ferrari as opposed tot he levante which is like badge enginered nissan.

    i have no problem with a suv as long as we then get some "real" hard core sportscars, somehting hard to find at ferrari dealer since, well maybe the 355.
     
  16. boxerman

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    How many 991s and caymans did they make.
     
  17. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    They don't exactly say. But I believe about 50% of their deliveries are SUVs in one form or another. They do say 32,409 for the 911 and 95,642 for Macan, which they say makes it the best selling Porsche. (roughly 1 of every 2.5 cars! not to mention the Cayenne nor Panamera!).

    https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/company/porsche-deliveries-2016-sales-record-13310.html

    So if Ferrari did a SUV, do you think it would end up representing roughly ⅓ to ½ of their sales? I think no way. Yet, I'd prefer if they didn't make a SUV. That can be for Porsche as they are now a SUV company.
     
  18. boxerman

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    Read in one of the Car mags that a new Dino is def a go. Apparently being built on a shortened version of the next 488 replacement, 2.9 ttv6 600hp.
     
  19. TheMayor

    TheMayor Five Time F1 World Champ
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    I believe it will happen because everyone at Ferrari denies it.

    Take the Alfa 4c CF chassis, stick in the Maserati turbo V6, add a fancy suspension with magnaride, and put on a new plastic body.

    It's not easy but they have most of the elements to go after the Mac 570s and Porsche 911
     
  20. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    I read the same thing. I think its in Automobile. Who knows. It could be fun!
     
  21. Smiles

    Smiles Moderator
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    It isn't to most people, but it is to me.

    My 330 2+2 was s/n 9453. Meaning fewer Ferraris had been made up until that point -- in the 30-year history of Ferrari -- than were made in 2016 alone.

    Ferraris really were special in the Enzo era. Beautiful and a bit mysterious, with their two distributors and two oil filters. And a very authentic (and comparatively deep) sound.

    Limited numbers meant that there was something almost gnostic about Ferrari ownership: you needed to know a lot in order to own one, and even more to work on one. You had to be on the inside of that almost mystic knowledge.

    And that gnostic approach really clashed with Classiche when modern Ferrari declared itself to be more expert than the real keepers of the tradition.

    Vintage Ferraris have almost nothing in common with the commercial vision Sergio Marchionne has in mind.

    Matt
     
  22. boxerman

    boxerman F1 Veteran
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    Yes but your gnostic ferrari completly dissapeared with the 360 if not the 355. Once they lost the tube frame and went to a unibody, etc they became a car, a little different car to others with great sounding motor and swoopy styling, but really just a car. To drive by then, they were really just car. Since then they have become more powerful but with at, ps and nannies. IMO the feel and the magic got lost somewhere in Lucas time. Even Mclaren have a more interesting tub.

    But then legislation and production costs meant ferraris would inevitably became more mainstream in terms of how they were produced. None of which means every car they make hast to feel so mainstream to drive, or be so simple to drive or look so well pick your word...

    So I hope even if only for marketing brand cred reasons Sergio brings back a he man car with the raw viceral feel from the bygone era, gnostic to drive, even if that car is not gnostic under the skin.

    As for numbers built, once they became so easy to drive with the 360 and even more so latterly, they really just became new cars, and used cars, all the so called rarity collectability of the new ones, thats clever marketing.

    Point is the bespoke special ship sailed 20 or more years ago. Such is the way of things. Still even some of the new cars should look great and drive superb, instead of being an asthetic pastiche and bland to drive.

    We come from different branches of the tree though. Your car is a 2+2 a gt in the grand tradition, A fast comfortable car from an era when there were some fast cars and some comfortable cars, but only ferrari and maybe maserati built cars that did both. Today, well a 488, maserati, even an Alfa not to mention the plethroa of german and even american cars that cover fast and comfortable, in fact faster than can be used.

    Myself I come from the fast charging sunday drive, who cares little about comfort school, its how it goes thats everythign. Ferrari no longer builds such a car, or even a car that covers the viceral feedback specialness that you feel though the seat, pedals, shifter steering wheel, the feedback that seprates a sportscar from a fast sedan.

    Amazingly when it comes to viceral sportscars, porche and even corvette do a bettr job than ferrari now. Heres hoping some of the magic returns in one or two models for both of us..

    the gnostic car today is at Lotus, and they are grerat machines with a great comunity, no one buys a lotus for the "status" . Yet everyone seems to want the horsey badge.
     
  23. RallyeChris

    RallyeChris Formula Junior

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    This.
     
  24. boxerman

    boxerman F1 Veteran
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    The rags say the new Dino starting in low to mid 200's and the 488 sucessor over 300 start. Nothing about a stick or it being anything other than another ferrari Gt.
     
  25. ferrarip4

    ferrarip4 Formula 3
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    And bring back the small 3 liter V12's in a super lightweight chassis!!!!
     
  26. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Rookie
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    True they weren't ordered, it's been said however that the dealers made it nearly impossible to do so at the time.
     
  27. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
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    Hmm...This coming from the guy who wants to increase production, add an SUV...Not buying it :)
     
  28. Smiles

    Smiles Moderator
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    Great post!

    Matt
     
  29. bernardo66

    bernardo66 Moderator
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    of2worlds likes this.
  30. jjmalez

    jjmalez F1 Rookie
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    Ferrari production;

    1985 3,119

    1993 2,325

    1997 3,518

    Ferrari is expecting to ship about 8,400 cars in 2017.


    I miss Luca
     
  31. boxerman

    boxerman F1 Veteran
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    Luca was doing near on 8k cars when he left. Luca did the schlockt merchandsie and stores. Luca set the company on the path its on now. Nothing to miss.


    I am a glass half full person.
    maybe sweater man in his quest for more sales will actualy being back some viceral to drive cars. maybe sweater man will make some great cars that you can actualy buy as opposed to the good ones being only collectables for the few. Sweater man wants to sell cars. They cant really seell a whole lot more of the current crop of Gt biased cars. Three paths, a new dino, soke real sprtscars and a suv, all of whic can be built of platforms and pieces already in production. I think he will do all of them, at least I hope so. Would gladly have a suv in the showroom if the prcess also begat soem great drivers cars.
     
  32. TheMayor

    TheMayor Five Time F1 World Champ
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    #80 TheMayor, Aug 30, 2017
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    I tend to agree with you. Luca was very "brand centric" (like adding the shields we love so much), doing deals with Lego and pens and hell --maybe even toothpaste, and also made the cars more GTs and less sports cars because he knew there were more people out there with a lot of money who wanted their cushy electric seats and fancy stereos.

    But WE are the problem because WE keep buying them. And I guarantee if they build and SUV a lot of us -- or other first time buyers -- will buy them. Money makes the world go 'round...
     
  33. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie
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    I think so too, and I also think that as a F1 team it would be inevitable for Ferrari in the modern world to have its brand put on a lot of merchandise. It's how the sports world works. Not as much as eventually happened, but T-Shirts, Caps, Toys, Video-Games and a lot of other things are not necessarily brand de-valuers...
     
  34. trevi

    trevi F1 Rookie
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    +1!
     
  35. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Yep!! Exactly! Can`t agree more!

    If Ferrari would print their Logo on stones and sell it - there are enough idiots running around who would buy this nonsens....

    Ciao!
    Walter
     
  36. Sunracer

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    Ferrari: Racing, beauty, rarity

    The stunning beauty has been in short supply for a long time. There's some nice stuff-the 550 is beautiful and elegant, but still not a stunner...the FF, horrible, even the California...meh, the 599? F-50? Even the Enzo, was interesting, but not a stunner...I remember when I first saw one...I wanted to love it's looks, but they were just OK. The car as whole was something special. Too many near misses. Remember a line up with the 288 GTO, 3X8's, TR?
     
  37. F1tommy

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    #85 F1tommy, Aug 31, 2017
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    Going back to the late 1950's up to the early 1970's Ferrari was not a trend setter in technology on road cars. Look at how long they used the basic V12 design almost untouched in road cars from before 1957 until after 1965. Also he was very slow to use disc brakes and kept solid rear axles on his cars long after many had gone to independent rear suspensions.
    His first Ferrari production road car with a rear engine was the 365BB if you count the Dino road cars as more of a FIAT project. The old man was not a easy man to be convinced new technology was better. Just look at all the test designs they did on drum brakes for the race cars.

    He let the body design houses go wild but in a conservative classic kind of way. Only the racing team was cutting edge and even the SEFAC cars were not leaders in design. That's why we love them, form over function. In late 1970 and 1971 that all changed when SEFAC came out with the 312PB's and Can Am 712 and later when they redesigned the 312 F1 cars in 1973.

    And the Enzo road car is all function, that's why it's so ugly :)
     
  38. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 Formula 3
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    #86 intrepidcva11, Aug 31, 2017
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    agree as to a few of your points, disagree as to others, but you have one fact wrong: Ferrari produced the 550/575 Maranellos from 1999-2006. Below is the Maranello's frame. P.S. these cars are the spiritual successors to the Daytona.
    550-575 frame chassis.jpg
     
  39. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 Formula 3
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    +1 as to all !
     
  40. Solid State

    Solid State Formula 3
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    Marchionne talk out both sides of his mouth most of the time so I don't believe much of what he says (or what's reported). He wants to go back to basics and court the vintage crowd yet he boasts of all the advanced hybrid for every new Ferrari and his in-house designers push aero and general gaudiness. He's all about increasing production and higher prices and more exclusivity and customization. There's nothing vintage going on here.

    I love certain vintage cars but any new Ferrari must be a very powerful machine and not just fun to drive. That and Corvettes are cheap and ugly with emphasis on cheap..... and ugly!!
     
  41. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 Veteran
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    But some how they're sold out for years to come and the press raves about their cars :confused:
     
  42. boxerman

    boxerman F1 Veteran
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    Theyre not really sold out for years to come. A first year new model has long wait/premiuns for maybe 24 months. After that you can order and get delivery in 6 months or less at list, which is about how long it takes ferrari to program the production, produce thge car and ship it.

    the factory has a capacity of 10k units. that they make 8k units tells you all you need to know about their keeping tension in the market/brand management. If they could sell 9 or 10k units with the same wait, ie margin on extras they would. They are balancing priduction to demmand, workign on keeping tension in the market, but hopefully not too big a tension. They have overdone themselvs with dealer games, gt cars only etc and alienated many who could have been clints, hence the entry and sucess of Mclaren into what was ferraris domain, not to mention the rise of lambo, proche Gt3.

    The peess loves ferraris, its great marketign too. Any press that criticises ferrari in any way does not get a ferrari to test again, just ask Chris harris. In fact it woudl be a pretty horrid sprtscar from any manufactuerer to get slated by the fawning press. However the performance Press loves Gt3's more.

    None of which is tosay ferraris are bad cars, far from it. they just dont live up to all the hype, some could be a lot betetr if ferrari cared, and the sell all they can make is pure myth, driven by clever marketing.
     
  43. boxerman

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    Here is what ferrari sportscars(as opposed to the Gt line) used to be about. This is the magic of the drive they need to try recapture. Its the whole immersive experience, not ease of use.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHgD0wJGcR0

    No tires screeching, car at 8/10ths water flowign over rocks, the art of drivign joy.
     
  44. ferrarip4

    ferrarip4 Formula 3
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    Chris Harris is not black listed by Ferrari anymore and it's been a while...
     
  45. Bluebottle

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    It is said that a picture is worth a thousand words. See photos below - my 550 next to an F12. Beauty and the beast.

    [​IMG]

    And if you are still unconvinced, here is my Dino with its great great grandson.

    [​IMG]

    It's high time Ferrari made a beautiful car again. And a smaller, simpler one
     
  46. buddyg

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    While I love the 308 and 355 styling as some of the most beautiful modern Ferrari's. I think the 458 is beautiful in it's own right. Add in the modern amenities, horsepower, reliability and the 458 is one of the best Ferrari's ever.

    It seems like some of you want Ferrari to remain stuck in the 60's and 70's. If that was the case there would be no Ferrari today. Face it people hate change but the fact is you change or you die. (In regards to car companies)
     
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  47. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 Veteran
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    Amazing story; well worth a look!!!!!
     
  48. Svito

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    After the last rumors about making a Ferrari SUV (which he always managed to ward off in the past) I have decided to create a thread in this community about how Ferrari fans could stop him. Shortly I will post it. Enough is enough.
     
  49. Svito

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    I have decided to create a thread in this community about how Ferrari fans could stop him. Shortly I will post it. Enough is enough.
     
  50. Marcel Massini

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    Sadly this new format doesn't allow me to see the photos you posted.
    Pix do not open up.

    Marcel M.A.S.S.I.N.I.
     
  51. Bluebottle

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    That's a shame. I wonder why?
     
  52. boxerman

    boxerman F1 Veteran
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    I love so much about the 458, styling for sure one of the all time classics, the mtor the last and arguably in a long line of fast reving v8s. But then you drive one, and it feels so pedestrian at any road attainable speeds, might as well be a korean sedan, exhaust flaps and utra quick ratio ps are not asunstitute for real drivign dynamics or latin drama, they are gimicks. Above 9/10ths I am sure its great fun, below that, might as well be typing a keyboard. There are very few places with roads left on the planet where you can drive a 458 above 9/10ths, so thats moot. One can go to the track, where a 458 is in the hunt but really surpassed by other machines. Seems to me between depreciation freakouts, runnign costs etc, there are so many ebtetr cars for the track, which is I guess why we dont see ferraris there.

    To me the 458 is like the ultimate woman you lust after only to find she is a big dissapointment in bed.
     

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