The Mosport Park and to a lesser extent Fort Erie track thread

Discussion in 'Canada' started by starboy444, Nov 6, 2012.

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  1. starboy444

    starboy444 F1 Veteran

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    #1 starboy444, Nov 6, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 8, 2012
    This is great news....a new super speedway with oval track, and road course to be designed by Jeff Gordon. Approvals and zoning have been finalized, so construction is going ahead shortly.

    Located next to the QEW in Fort Erie, is sure to attract Canadian and US race fans!

    I was shocked to hear this, I never heard any rumours or details about this project anytime this year, finally we can get a world-class facility which we deserve!

    Looks like the new owners of Mosport have a little competition on their plate now.

    http://www.thestar.com/sports/autoracing/article/1283209--canadian-motor-speedway-gets-green-light-in-fort-erie
     
  2. thedoc

    thedoc Formula 3
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    Maybe if I start now my mullet will be grown in just in time for the first NASCAR event!

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  3. ferrarilover

    ferrarilover F1 Rookie

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  4. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    Dont knock it too much Gary..go to a race one day...its quite the spectical!!
     
  5. ClassicFerrari

    ClassicFerrari F1 World Champ
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    Business in the front...party in the back :D

    Nah, but seriously this is good news. Thank god for the road course part!
     
  6. FRIPS

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    It will be fantastic to have such a facility in our backyard. The oval will be interesting from a spectator perspective.

    What will be even better is to have another great road course that we can use on the other side of the GTA to complement what we already have on the East side.

    Hopefully we will have some regional race events in Fort Erie soon as well!
     
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  8. Fave

    Fave F1 Rookie
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    Never mind watching it, go drive one. The power is sumthin fierce!
    Makes a 308 feel like a golf cart.
     
  9. ClassicFerrari

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    Agreed. In the west you only have TMP and there used to be Dunville (small I know) but even that closed.

    Probably some serious track day events from the USA will now go there.
     
  10. starboy444

    starboy444 F1 Veteran

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    +1

    It will sure beat driving over the pot holes and raccoon traps at Mosport
     
  11. ClassicFerrari

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    Yeah, but that's changing too.
     
  12. b-mak

    b-mak F1 Veteran

    #11 b-mak, Nov 6, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2012
    Let me be the realist here. If they had the money, they would have built this facility already. This is more static in a long list of empty press releases.

    If, and it's a big if, this track ever gets built, the road course will be second rate. By the topography of the area, it'll have limited elevation changes and will be inevitably designed new school, insurance policy-style with corner combination after corner combination with zero fourth gear+ corners.

    Other tracks in the area might mean good variety for track day enthusiasts, but nothing teaches you to go fast like figuring out how to hustle around Mosport. No other track in North America scares me properly like Mosport. Plus, novices always have the DDT there.

    On another note, Lucas, you're a broken record about Mosport. Have you ever raced there? Have you raced elsewhere so that you have some comparables?
     
  13. ClassicFerrari

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    Kleinburgring :D
     
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  15. starboy444

    starboy444 F1 Veteran

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    #13 starboy444, Nov 6, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2012
    Brian, I agree that Mosport is a fantastic and challenging track, however it has been in disrepair for many years. Finally its getting a rennovation, and hopefully the respect that the legendary course deserves. The Castrol tower is demolished, the old bathrooms have been removed, and the raccoon and possum traps have been eliminated, but the track will need millions of run-off, paddock and safety improvements if it were ever to attract big ticket series such as FIA GT, Indycar or F1. We need to look no further than Mont Tremblant, where a semi-world class track exists and safely hosts many important racing series.

    This new track venue in Fort Erie just goes to show how some people are willing to "think big" and take risks in order to create a business. The investors and developers of the Fort Erie project are from overseas, and are willing to invest alot of time and money into the circuit in order to bring the big boys here.

    Unfortunately we can't say the same about Canadian developers, we continue to spit out the same garbage, and small mis-managed projects. As was mentioned, we should have had this sort of race venue many years ago, but nobody stepped up to the plate and got it done.

    Kudos for the people and money behind the Fort Erie track...I too am skeptical about its completion, I will be impressed if it ever gets completed as planned.

    But in the mean time, we are stuck avoiding the pesky beavers at Mosport, and the dandelion filled potholes at Shannonville.
     
  16. b-mak

    b-mak F1 Veteran

    Let's dissect this.

    What disrepair? It's successfully hosted SCCA Pro and ALMS events for years, among other series. I don't know one pro or am driver who doesn't love it.

    The facility still has a mix of old and new restrooms. Who cares? So do most North American venues.

    Mosport will never host FIA GT, Indycar or F1. Give your head a shake. The most they can hope for in the short term is a net new Nationwide race, while maintaining the ALMS event, as well as SCCA and Canadian "pro" series.

    What important racing series? They host none. Zero. No FIA GT, no WTCC, no major US series, certainly no international open wheel series.

    Again, this is another backhanded BS comment from you about Mosport and Shannonville.

    If you're going to be critical of these facilities, then you'll have to enlighten us with the sources for your context. When was the last time you drove on those tracks? What other tracks have you driven to give you this exceptional insight?
     
  17. thedoc

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    friggin nascar..................................ye ha ya'll

    seriously i have been to the michigan 500 a couple times and really had a fun time in spite of their beer. It ,like many motorsports doesn't translate well on TV however but somehow they have managed to turn it into the money making soap opera that it is . That part at least is a total joke and ironically may be the very reason why real car racing (lemans and sports prototypes) don't do well here on TV.


    Gary
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  18. starboy444

    starboy444 F1 Veteran

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    Brian, I'm assuming you have some sort of sponsorship and/or business arrangement with these tracks which prevents you from telling the bare truth about them, but I don't...

    Don't try and patronize me about this subject, I know more than you think I do.

    I have been to Mosport, and Shannonville many times in the last few years. These tracks are (were) in such a sad state of disrepair, its a joke. The fact that its taken Mosport 50 years to be rennovated and updated is sad...It kind of reminds me of the Toronto Argonauts, as they both have been thru different owners and ideas in the last decades, who barely do anything to improve it; only before selling it in haste to the next group who 'plan' to make it into a winning concern.

    The fact is Mosport and Shannonville are such sorry excuses for race venues, compared to other world class circuit in America or Europe. I don't understand how Mosport can be called "International Motor Speedway" when the only thing international about it is the french mayonaisse they serve with hot dogs in the parking lot.

    I don't understand why you are defending these tracks, when you should be using your journalistic skill and promotional powers to have them demolished, rennovated, or rebuilt immediately.


    Luckily, Mosport does have a new ownership group, and is making progress as we speak. Too little too late as I say...forget about Mosport, its too far, too dangerous, too tired to have a decent life left. Its time to get something big and bold on the ground, us Canadian racing enthusiasts deserve better, unfortunately I don't have $250 million lying around to make a new Canadian circuit...In the mean time I will simply watch and hope someone else does, and complain about the current problems we do have.
     
  19. b-mak

    b-mak F1 Veteran

    Let's dissect this further.

    What exactly do you mean? I'm being paid by Mosport? Please tell me more about my business arrangement or how I'm accepting payment or services for promoting the facility.

    I've raced at Mosport - as recently as, um, this year. That was the ALMS event in July. When did you drive there last?

    No, you don't. Prove it. What other venues have you visited extensively and recently? You keep avoiding these questions. Amuse me with your answers. Perhaps even prove me wrong. I'm waiting.

    Now, you're unequivocally demonstrating you don't know what you're talking about. When were you there? What did you do? Were you in the role of driver or fan?

    Mosport was renovated after Panoz took ownership. Perhaps you should stick with being a CFL fan.

    Really? How different is it compared to any other "world class circuit in America or Europe"? Which tracks have you attended in the last five years? And in what roles?

    Now, Lucas, clearly you've been paying attention to what I do personally, so you know as well as anybody that I drive a tracks all over North America and Europe. Have you done anything even remotely similar? No, you haven't.

    Why would I suggest that there's anything wrong with Mosport when I've driven all the greats in North America and understand what they're all about? I've competed at, won races at, have track records at, or have driven Road Atlanta, Road America, Mid-Ohio, Laguna Seca, Sonoma (nee Infineon, nee Sears Point), Ascari and, um, the f***ing Nordschleife. That's just a short list.

    I'm not defending Mosport against anything except your BS.

    You're a racing enthusiast? If you actually were, you'd realize that a place like Mosport is irreplaceable. Then, again, have you even driven there? Or do you just look longingly through the fence or at videos on YouTube?

    Prove me wrong. Answer my questions. Or keep playing the keyboard hero. You're better at that than answering the questions I keep asking.

    In the meantime, let the big boys talk about how good or bad our race tracks are.
     
  20. Nuvolari

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    #18 Nuvolari, Nov 6, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2012
    While I have been to over 50 race tracks around the world life I can say that in the past 12 months I have raced at or visited/lapped at the following venues:

    Mosport
    Shannonville
    Calabogie
    Cayuga
    Laguna Seca
    Sonoma
    California Speedway
    Road Atlanta
    Long Beach
    Daytona International Speedway
    Nurburgring
    Zandvoort
    Le Mans
    Donington Park
    Spa Francorchamps
    Silverstone
    Willow Springs
    Macau

    I'm sure I missed one in there but the point is that I am speaking from recent experience and believe that the negative comments against Mosport are way off base. Shannonville has never been a proper race venue and serves as a lapping facility more than anything else. Mosport on the other hand has a proper layout with big elevation changes and very fast bends. Racers around the world recognize it as one of the best drivers tracks anywhere. The current state of the facilities is quite good compared to some other notable tracks and is certainly up to the standard of modern high downforce race cars. There is a whole world outside of F1 and while Mosport is to FIA standards it is in no way less of a track because the F1 guys don't run there any more.

    We are lucky to have such a great track so near to Toronto and the latest improvements will make it a world level facility in short order.

    I will add that few tracks give the level of satisfaction that Mosport does when you really squeeze a lap time out of it. If you have ever had the kind of oversteer at 220kph at the bottom of turn 2 that allows you to clearly read the time on your watch and still kept your foot in it for fear of loosing a tenth then you will know exactly what I mean. B-mak chose to experience this at the top of 2 but that is another story all together :D
     
  21. b-mak

    b-mak F1 Veteran

    It's better to know the limit than to intimate it's true nature, right?

    Have you seen the episode we produced?
     
  22. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Rookie
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    Yes Brian I suppose that you are more knowledgable than me on the recent limit of Turn 2. I did however once on the first lap and on cold slicks do a 360 on the way down 2 in front of a full field. I clearly remember looking up the hill as I was rotating while watching the other cars come at me. As I straightened I dipped the clutch, selected a lower gear, and drove off when I was facing the right way; real Danny Sullivan stuff. In truth to this day I still think it as dumb luck to get away with that unscathed.

    Regarding your episode yes I watched the whole thing and quite enjoyed it. It felt like there were cameras everywhere and the editing was good.
     
  23. b-mak

    b-mak F1 Veteran

    That's not dumb luck in the least. Spinning, that's one thing. Getting it all sorted out and carrying on, that's skill.

    All I know are the limits of adhesion with production-based cars. Give me something with big downforce and I'm either screwed or really quick.
     
  24. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Rookie
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    Brian you are too kind but lets not get too off topic here:

    Mosport is awesome and is only getting awesomer (yes that is a real word to me)

    The Fort Erie track may or may not happen regardless of the zoning. Race tracks are never a done deal until the first car laps it and even then they are under constant threat.
     
  25. b-mak

    b-mak F1 Veteran

    Awesomer is right.

    Perhaps the all-seeing, all-knowing Lucas knows that the Mosport renos are all about. Shhh! Don't tell him. Let the illuminatus tell us himself.
     
  26. thedoc

    thedoc Formula 3
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    Wow this is ausomest!
    Back when I got in an argument with someone on here the mod then threatened to shut it all down . Now you us are throwing the gloves down ! I'm gettin popcorn,
    Whoha!

    Gary
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  27. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Rookie
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    Very well Gary have it your way.

    If there are not more positive comments about Mosport then I'll shut this thread down :D
     
  28. ClassicFerrari

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    #26 ClassicFerrari, Nov 7, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Not to derail this thread further but.

    Lucas, I know you just want the best for our old track. So...all I can say is they are working on it brotha. ;)
    602367_10151299197661013_1439497521_n.jpg
    617301_10151300692351013_72687528_o.jpg
    664900_10151300687051013_896376740_o.jpg
    665597_10151300682646013_845925667_o.jpg
    177344_10151293146041013_1242898605_o.jpg
     
  29. Fave

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    Ooooooo
     
  30. gerritv

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    That will be fun in the wet as you move across the different surfaces :)

    Some people seem to be more interested in nice buildings or washrooms. Personally I think the track itself is much more important. If you are actually driving on the track (instead of puncturing oil pans on the roads surrounding the track) then nothing else really matters. It is a lot more fun to almost p..s yourself in Turn 2 than in the washroom.

    It is a driver's track, maybe the new buildings and washrooms will make it a spectators track as well. And then maybe Starboy444 will be happy :)

    I am not a racing driver but I do know that my skills improved considerably after experiencing Turn 2 and 5a/b. Never at the cars limit though :)

    Gerrit
     
  31. red3555gtb

    red3555gtb Formula 3
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    Vasco, when were those pictures taken?
     
  32. Fave

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    #30 Fave, Nov 7, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Vrooom!
    uploadfromtaptalk1352335341393.jpg
     
  33. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Rookie
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    Those photos were taken in the last 2 days
     
  34. Big red

    Big red F1 World Champ
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    Wait when the hotels show up at mosport, with the new home development in the surrounding area.
     
  35. Jay GT4

    Jay GT4 F1 Rookie

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    #33 Jay GT4, Nov 7, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    +1

    I love driving Mosport and I have a healthy respect for turn 2, but 10 is probably my favorite.
    DSC_1576.JPG
    DSC_1621.JPG
    DSC_1605.JPG
     
  36. Rorie

    Rorie Formula Junior

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    There is clearly money being invested in Mosport for the first time in a long time. I also like it because it is a fast track. Unlike Shannonville.
     
  37. ClassicFerrari

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    For sure, and for a big company like that to invest and promote their name is a win win. I wish them the best return....They are saving an important piece of Canadian history!
     
  38. ClassicFerrari

    ClassicFerrari F1 World Champ
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    Like Rick said, just recently.

    I snagged these off their Facebook page.
     
  39. starboy444

    starboy444 F1 Veteran

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    Vasco, I totally agree that Mosport IS a Canadian icon, its hosted many F1 races, and has a challenging and fast layout which is very popular with drivers.

    But its been neglected for 40 years, and has been a sad excuse for a "venue" until the new ownership group has recently taken over. Mosport has been lacking safety barriers, there have been many fatalities over the last few years, (cars and motorcycles) and is a big reason why major series are questioning its status. There needs to be a complete overhaul in order to bring it up to spec.

    This is supposed to be Canada's "premier" race course... Basically, the worst track in Europe is as good as our best track in Canada....
     
  40. Nuvolari

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    Lucas it is time to get your facts straight.

    Mosport Park as it is originally known hosted its first race in 1961 changing hands a number of time until 1998. During that period it hosted lots of international events including the F1 races until 1977 (which it shared with St. Jovite). Until 1998 the track was being maintained as needed without any significant improvements to the layout.

    In 1998 it was purchased by Don Panoz and the name changed to 'Mosport International Raceway' (a name change I opposed but that is another subject). Within the first few years of ownership the following took place:

    - Entire track was re-paved top to bottom
    - Old pits were taken down and the pit lane was totally re-done
    - Starting flag station was refurbished
    - All new corner worker stations
    - All new communications systems
    - The hump on the back stretch was shaved down to keep high horsepower cars from flipping.
    - Got FIA international homologation for the track

    Then up until 2011 the following was done:

    - Gravel traps replaced with ashphalt runoff
    - Extended pit lane and changed the pit exit to feed between turns 1 & 2
    - The DDT circuit was built and later expanded upon
    - New kart track was built on the outside of turn 8
    - All new bathrooms and shower facilities around the track
    - Concessions were mildly upgraded
    - paddock inside of turn 1 and lower paddock was paved.

    In 2011 Ron Fellows and an investor group bought the track and again changed the name to Canadian Tire Motorsports Park (It will always be Mosport Park to me even if Ron corrects me every time I tell him). Since then they have done the following:

    - Removed the 'tunnel' to get to the pits and replaced it with a tunnel that fits 2 tractor trailers side by side. It is an amazing improvement
    - Totally re-modelled the road system and lower paddock areas with additional paved parking
    - Re-graded the land in the infield to make spectator access better
    - Re-paved sections of the track
    - Totally changed the pit entries
    - Torn down the original control tower (we'll see what comes next there)
    - Started construction of a new convention/meeting facility accross the main straight
    - Added pedestrian bridges accross the top of turn 2 and before turn 8.

    These are just the items I remember off the top of my head as I am sure there are more. This is hardly a facility in disrepair.

    Regarding track safety, the fatalities that have taken place over the past 10 years have had nothing to do with the circuit itself. Mosports fast layout lends itself to bigger accidents and I for one am not interested in running at tracks with 2 miles of runoff at each corner as it emasculates the purpose of pushing the boundries of tire adhesion in the first place. Namely that there should be consequences for error as it gives the activity intrinsic value.

    As for the worst track in Europe being better than the best track in Canada it is time to get on a plane and see the European facilities for yourself. Check my previous post, I've been around lately and can say with first hand experience that many of the European venues do not hold a candle to Mosport. Time to take off the 'everything in Europe is better' rose colored glasses off.
     
  41. gerritv

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    Then Watkins Glen and Silverstone are in the same list as are a lot of other tracks. Eg Silverstone and Zandvoort have a much longer list of fatalities. If you actually take the time to read about each of the accidents then you will see that e.g a car spinning and being hit broadside at 125mph is not the fault of track design.
    http://www.motorsportmemorial.org/query.php?db=ct&q=circuit_c&n=306

    Gerrit
     
  42. b-mak

    b-mak F1 Veteran

    Lucas, you have no basis for this nonsense. You've repeatedly avoided responding to my questions about your first hand knowledge about any racing facilities, which serves to imply your statements are entirely unfounded and without merit.

    In addition, I think it's time for you to retract this statement. A public apology should accompany that retraction.
     
  43. ferrarilover

    ferrarilover F1 Rookie

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    I used to read those books for hours as a kid....
     
  44. Vantage007

    Vantage007 Formula 3

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    They had books when you were a kid? I thought you grew up reading cave markings and hieroglyphics! :D
     
  45. gerritv

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    Pity there is no Block feature, it would be great to ignore the ramblings on the persistently uninformed
     
  46. Fave

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    There is an ignore feature.... I think I'm on a few people's lists :D
     
  47. Fave

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    Reminds me of the Espada for some reason... The picture that is.
     
  48. ferrarilover

    ferrarilover F1 Rookie

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    Thanks Adi. Since you know me I know you're joking but at first I thought this person is way out to lunch then I realized you changed your nickname lately!!
     
  49. ferrarilover

    ferrarilover F1 Rookie

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  50. ferrarilover

    ferrarilover F1 Rookie

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    Does that mean Gary is a fox at the wheel??

    ; p

    Chris
     
  51. thedoc

    thedoc Formula 3
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    I actually bought on eBay a kids book that features an Espada . Now I have to go dig it up....

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  52. Vantage007

    Vantage007 Formula 3

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    Who is this "Adi" you speak of?
     

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