The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread | Page 204 | FerrariChat

The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by El Wayne, Nov 1, 2003.

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  1. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    The images are generic. None are specific. The same image is used for 0854.

    What is VERY specific is the chassis numbers of the owners individual cars and chassis number 0846 is clearly specifically listed as having been owned by me since 2000.
     
  2. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

    Nov 19, 2008
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    Steven Robertson
    #5077 miurasv, Mar 7, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2014
    Proof of this particular web page's lack of accuracy, its poor attention to detail with no credibility as a means of Ferrari publishing the authenticity of a particular Ferrari, which to be fair, is not the intended purpose of this very informal web page.
     
  3. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    503
    Post 6627: How can a US proceeding provide any relevant information about a chassis declared as 0846?
     
  4. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    Read the whole thread.
     
  5. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    Feb 22, 2004
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    Tom Wiggers
    #5080 tomgt, Mar 7, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  6. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
    2,989
    tewksbury
    Full Name:
    george burgess
    I have on occasion resorted to the theory of "do your homework, it's all there" This is a fine example of just this. When opinions and facts have been previously posted it is the responsibility a questioner to do the required research before making accusations questioning the matter at hand. Stick to your guns Jim. tongascrew
     
  7. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    Amelia is great. 0846 just got invited all expenses paid to Italy for The Niño Vacarella Tribute in May.
     
  8. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

    Nov 19, 2008
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    Steven Robertson
    #5083 miurasv, Mar 7, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2014
    Re: Homework.

    Then practice what you preach. You obviously haven't done yours. I have done my homework and proved that Jim's claims that Ferrari have in writing confirmed that he has resurrected 0846 on its original chassis to be total bullxxxx. See posts 6616 and 6626.
     
  9. 180 Out

    180 Out Formula 3

    Jan 4, 2012
    1,206
    San Leandro, CA
    Full Name:
    Bill Henley
    A fictitious business entity can speak only through its employees and agents. If an employee is authorized to make a statement, in general that statement is binding on the corporation. Some person or person has created a set of web pages intended to communicate the current whereabouts of certain *Ferrari* motorcars. One of these pages is dedicated to 0846. It follows that, whoever created that page concludes that 0846 is an actually existing *Ferrari* motorcar. Did the creators have authorization to speak for Ferrari? Who knows? But if that page has been up for many years, without correction, and in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, this is highly persuasive, if not conclusive, evidence that Ferrari considers 0846 to be an actually existing Ferrari motorcar. I really don't see any other valid construction of this web page.
     
  10. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
    2,989
    tewksbury
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    george burgess
    I have reviewed 6616 & 6626. Your opinions are yours and are between you and J.G. Yes you did your home work however your interpritations of the research seem to be yours exclusively.I don't have the time right now to pursue this further. I have had my differences with Mr.G however his pursuit of accuracy in his restorations projects is probably without equal. I thinks you will need to come up with a better interpretation of the issue if you are to be more persuasive. tongascrew
     
  11. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    The legal system agreed with you.
     
  12. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    Amelia is great. The person who was with Tom Meade when he died has confirmed Patrick and Marcel's remarks earlier in this thread and how 0846's original chassis survived.

    This will all be part of the Video another Fchatter is making on Tom.

    Looking forward to seeing David P tommorow.
     
  13. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

    Nov 19, 2008
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    Steven Robertson
    #5088 miurasv, Mar 7, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 8, 2014
    Alleged hearsay of a person no longer with us to confirm or deny.
     
  14. Scuderia Pinguino

    Mar 21, 2006
    29
    #5089 Scuderia Pinguino, Mar 7, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I have dipped in and out of this thread over the years with little more than a passing interest. However, today I had a look at the PDF document produced by Mr Glickenhaus titled Ferrari 330 P3/4 Chassis 0846 and dated 2004.

    I have not read the thread in it’s entirety and it may be that the following may have already been clarified and if this is case, then I apologise.

    Pages 80-85 show photographs that are described as ‘Le Mans scrutinizing stamps’

    The photo’s show ‘stamps’ which would be made with a die after the part had been manufactured and ‘stamps’ that are ‘proud’ and therefore would have part of the actual casting process. Lets just call the latter casting marks

    Page 80 (pic 47) show a stamp. Although the stamp is not 100% clear. It is the Factory ‘Gestione Sportiva’ roundel that appears on most castings

    Page 81 (pic 48) and Page 82 (pic 49) Shows the mark Z5Z. This is nothing more that the Magnesium ‘Code’ and is used to depict the type of material used. Z5Z is a heavy duty magnesium casting alloy and most factory parts from the period will have the stamps.

    Gearboxes were generally made from Z5Z or RZ5 the latter being a variant with lower tensile properties but with better casting characteristics. It is weldable and recommended for difficult ‘spidery’ patterns such as gearbox casings. Z5Z was used mainly for uprights and wheels

    Then there is ZRE1 depicted on Page 84 (pic 51) Another code. This material is used generally for engine blocks since it will withstand temperatures to 250 deg C.

    Page 85 (pic 52) The two Gestione Sportive Roundels and nothing to do with Le Mans The Roundel on the left appears to be ‘proud’ and therefore was part of the casting process and the one on the right appears to be a stamp.

    Mr Glickenhaus, in his text, attaches much importance to these marks/stamps in trying to prove his case that his car is real.

    Whilst I only drove in the 24 hours once, I was present during the arduous scrutineering process that is a feature of Le Mans. I did not notice a scrutineer wandering around with a big copper hammer and bunch of stamps. Imagine the damage he could cause! However, I may not have been paying attention so I called an old friend today. He was a mechanic at Le Mans in period on no less than 17 occasions. He had never seen or heard of this practice and thought the idea preposterous.

    Finally, I would not dream of stating that the parts shown in the ‘0846’ document did not form part of a car used at Le Mans. They may well have but these stamps do not prove that they did.

    Please below two pic’s of Factory pieces. Clearly visible are the Gestione Sportiva roundel and the Magnesium Codes Z5Z and RZ5. Neither of these parts have been anywhere near Le Mans.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  15. wax

    wax Five Time F1 World Champ
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    #5090 wax, Mar 7, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 8, 2014
    'Napolis and Tom Meade spoke with one another many times.
     
  16. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    The stamps on the heads of 0846, not sure which page in the pdf are definetly Le Mans Scrutinising stamps from 1967. Similar ones are on the heads of 0854. They are an initial within a circle.
     
  17. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    503
    6639: No relevant information is provided. Where and how? Dead is dead and Ferrari confirms this fact in writing.
     
  18. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    What part of today on a web site published by Ferrari in their sole discression that they list me as the owner of 0846 are you unable to understand?

    Ciao
     
  19. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Pete
    Jim, Most of us don't put much stock in an web site as they are often maintained be IT idiots like me who have no idea :). Plus there is no proof that Ferrari even care what is reported on it.

    But Steve is being silly IMO as we have discussed the probable history of the chassis and there are not many conclusions other than the one you have made.
    Pete
     
  20. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    These Scrutinising stamps we're put on by ACO scrutinisiers at The Ferrari Factory
    and confirmed at Le Mans. The factory explained this to me in answer to the Scrutinising
    documents I showed them regarding 0858 which Ferrari said ran at Le Mans as 0856 in 1967.

    The stamps confined that items such as the heads had not been switched during the race but as the same scrutinizer stamped several cars at the factory the factory could switch 0858 and 0856 identities by swapping chassis plates and restamping 0858 and 0856's engines by grinding down the last digit as per the photo retired posted. The factory stands by this switching of identities of 0858 and 0856 and that's why the Classiche history of 350 Can Am is different than many belived it to be and the Le Mans Scrutinising documents show.
     
  21. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    #5096 Napolis, Mar 7, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2014
    In this case as Ferrari confirmed in writing that before they confirmed me as the owner of 0846 they had to do a complete investigation and only after that they did publish it is relevant.

    See post 6515.

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/142607423-post6515.html

    That said I agree that the physical uniqueness of the only P 3/4 chassis ever made and the accident damage and repair thereof etc. is Oscans Razor in this particular case.
     
  22. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    Steven Robertson
    No, Jim, nowhere in their communication to you did Ferrari say they had to do a complete investigation and they did not actually publish anything. What they did do was make available to you, and you only, in "Your Ferrari Garage" the information that you provided to them. Nothing more. You are the only person who is able to access this part of the Ferrari web site. It is not available to the public on the Ferrari web site and they state that they do not guarantee the contents of the site as being accurate.

    It was then that you, not Ferrari, who published, i.e made available to the public, and transmitted on numerous internet forums and web sites, your information that Ferrari posted in "Your Garage." This is in contravention of Ferrari's General Rules of using their web site that you have to agree to before using the site.

    The relevant terms and conditions of use of the site are as follows:

    "Material on the site is for personal use only. Reproduction, transmission or extraction of any material on the site is strictly prohibited. It is not allowed to copy and/or to reproduce in whole or in part the contents of the web site without the express authority of Ferrari S.p.A.

    All the contents of the site are subject to and are protected by the applicable copyright and intellectual property laws.

    Exclusion of Warranty and Limitation of Liability:

    Ferrari S.p.A. does not provide any warranty for its accuracy and completeness."



    Do you have Ferrari's authority to reproduce contents of their web site?
     
  23. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Pete
    #5098 PSk, Mar 8, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 8, 2014
    Steve,

    We have all been down this path (before this thread on the current FerrariChat existed we discussed this car on the old FerrariChat site) and while not all believe Jim's car is #0846 in it's current form, I believe there are more that do than don't.
    Pete
     
  24. gt4me

    gt4me F1 Veteran

    Sep 10, 2005
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    Lewis Mitchell
    Agree that some people have got a bit carried away here but the thread title is 0846 debate.
     
  25. wax

    wax Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 20, 2003
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    Dirty Harry
    As for the site info - Ferrari long ago amended model name and year. Ferrari did so quickly and decisively, and as such, 0846 has remained listed.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

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